Sawing posts and a couple of other questions

[acrosteve]

I am reading the excellent thread on framing lumberhttps://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,63328.0.html
And want to clarify a thing or two.

"Horns"  Those would be the "high spots" on the log opposite the hump.

If so, some logs would not have horns.  Or, do you always look for even the slightest hump?




Up to this point, i suppose I have only cut lumber with the intention of woodworking useage.

I am going to be sawing some 16' 6x6 posts for the shop I am building and have a couple of pines down.  I did not measure them yet, but I would say at least 24" at the butt.  Trouble is that they have some significant branches.  Several over 6" dia.  I am definitely planning on centering the center 6x6 on the pith and working from there.  Since I am cutting posts and not really framing lumber, what consideration should I give for the placement of the knots?  Center of the faces, or on the 45?  I am thinking on the 45 would be better.

[terrifictimbersllc]

Correct, and correct.  The hump or horn sides are often #1 and #2 for choosing best faces for high grade boards.  Also I interpret in  MMs sawing discussion he's often making framing lumber and the way he describes to saw in the recent framing lumber thread is to choose to tolerate some possible "bow" in framing boards, as opposed to "crook".   This is about orienting boards relative to what the sawyer imagines to be the curved line of the pith in a curved log, itself surrounded by juvenile wood, which is the culprit which causes crook because of how it moves when it dries.

The case of 6x6's is not like 2x4, 2x6, 2x8 etc where one is choosing which dimension of the board to line up with the pith.  They're both the same.  Beams are either centered on the heart (pith, juvenile wood) or free of the heart.  Usually one from the center and others from the sides and top of center.  Ones from curved logs are more likely to curve on drying than ones from straight logs.   Cutting oversize on the mill and trimming to final dimension can get them straight off the mill but doesn't guarantee what happens on drying. Myself I'd cut oversize from curved logs and re-trim after some drying or used the curved logs for siding.

Usually don't have complete choice where knots end up in beams, you're making deep cuts to get 2 sides of the beam at least.  One principle of strength in framing lumber, is to not have knots at edges of boards.  Someone else can weigh in about knots in vertical posts.  Strength of posts, legs etc is not about the ability of the wood to resist crushing under compression, or even shear if straight grained, it is incredibly strong in these regards, but about their ability to resist bending under a load leading to failure.

[acrosteve]

I picked up the logs today.  Bucked them at 18' and painted the ends.
You can get an idea of the large knots I mentioned.

The two butt ends are right at 25"

[beenthere]

If you take your 6 x 6 with the pith centered, then those knots should be a lot smaller.
And for posts, your 6x should be fair to descent. But the side boards are going to be marginal to middlin for boards and may be tough to dry straight.
Maybe some chainsaw work to knock the bumps off straight with the log surface will help putting it on your mill.

[69bronco]

That's some rough lookin pine you've got there, sorry.. I would try for your 6xs from the center. As bony as that pine is, the side lumber will still make passable board and bat siding.

[acrosteve]

No need to be sorry, sometimes the truth hurts. :D  And yes, some more cleanup is in order for these logs.  The guy just limbed them up pretty quick.

I was offered the trees for free and took them only because I need around 17 14'-16' long 6x6 posts for a building i am putting up.  I should be able to get over half of them from these 3 logs.  I do not believe I would want these for anything else.  These are my 1st pine logs, and I may feel differently after I get them cut up.

I hope I can get 5 posts each  from the two larger logs, However, the log in the center is the 2nd log from the tallest tree.  I will likely have to split the pith on it to get more than one 6x6 from it.  But, I am concerned about the stability of getting 4 6x6 that way.  I wonder if I just slab off the sides, then split it into oversided quarters, and then let them dry for a few months.  Then dress them down to size again.

[drobertson]

I'm thinking if you want somewhat straight ones, that would be a better idea than not.  My bet is they will bow, maybe in two directions.  If time is allowable for the build, then refinishing later would seem to be the way to do it. jmho

[Remle]

Milling lumber is all about managing stress. By quartering the pith of the log in to the corner of each post you are creating the maximum amount of stress possible across the post. The best possible ( stable ) post, is the one with the pith centered. So now lets talk about a way to cheat and make more than one post from the same log.  Really it's not cheating but controlling the stress as best as we can in this situation, to acquire more post. Based on the diameter of the log, you may have some wane on the post. Lets say you have a log of 20" diameter small end, this would be the smallest log I would use for this. Now to explain lets draw a simple diagram. 1) draw a circle with a dot at the center 2) enclose that circle in a box of the same size 3) now split the height in to three equal rectangles 4) now divide each rectangle into 3 equal squares. Okay now to explain, the center square is the post with the centered pith, each side ( left,right,above and below ) are the cheater post. The square represents the but end of the post, the round portion of the circle represents the wane on 2 corners of the post at the top of the post. The outside 4 corner squares of the large square are waste or in some cases with larger logs could be cut into usable lumber. Now it becomes a matter of stacking the post with the edge cut from center post down. By stacking this way you are trying to control the bowing effect ( difference in stress between the out side of the log and that portion closer to the center ). Even now the post may bow, but it will be more likely to only bow in one direction, rather than 2 direction's if you put the pith in one corner. Smaller logs, cut side lumber centering the pith in the post.  For whats it's worth, that's my spiel.

[nativewolf]

Great discussion on cutting a cheater post.  I've read about that before and will hope to try it out in a year or two.

My only suggestion is can you simply cut larger post on center?  Go for a 12x12 post and use fewer post in the building?  Rough building?  Does it have to meet any code?  Barns in my area don't always have to be to code.  Perhaps the best solution is to look for a few more ugly white pine logs for free and cut oversize posts.  Anyhow, just a thought.  I think that will all those limbs the posts are not only going to have huge potential to bow but they are going to have knots right through them.  You really shouldn't have structural posts/beams with knots of that size on such a small post, some of those knots look larger than the face of your posts -6".  Caveat-not much of a builder/carpenter/sawyer but this is something I'd ask others about. 

[acrosteve]

Good info.  I don't believe I had herd the term cheater post before.  But in the case you described, there would be one true post and 4 cheaters?

I am afraid that if i do split the smaller log into 4 pieces, it would move too much to clean up, and I might end up wasting all 4 of them

I suppose the only thing I have to loose is my time and a couple of blades.
I really need to get the logs on the mill and opened up before I throw in the towel.

I need to get some blades 1st.  I am thinking I would be better off with a 7deg blade.

[Remle]

Good info.  I don't believe I had herd the term cheater post before.  But in the case you described, there would be one true post and 4 cheaters?

I am afraid that if i do split the smaller log into 4 pieces, it would move too much to clean up, and I might end up wasting all 4 of them

I suppose the only thing I have to loose is my time and a couple of blades.
I really need to get the logs on the mill and opened up before I throw in the towel.

I need to get some blades 1st.  I am thinking I would be better off with a 7deg blade.

"Cheater Post"  Hum.  Maybe we could petition Jeff to start a slang section in the forestry forum dictionary for all new meanings when combining words, although I would think calling it a Quarter Saw-en Post would more accurately describe it.  As to truing up the post later, man this is rough cut or as my father would say, "Son we ain't putting a cross on top of it and if we were I think HE would under stand. The pressure treated 6X6 post in my  garage are crooked now, despite the fact that they were hand picked for straightness when I build it and the posts already show signs of decay at ground level at 15yr's old. So even if you do true up latter, that's no guarantee they will stay that way. I guess if you are looking for straightness you might want to consider cutting 1 1/2" by 6" stock and nailing up 3 of them to make a post, which, actually ain't a bad idea as then you could use pressure treated lumber under ground and your milled lumber above ground. Again this is only my 2 cents worth and not meant to criticize any one on how they do things.

[Peter Drouin]

I would only make 1" wood out of it, And a ¼ of it will be junk. They would not past grade in NH for post. Sorry. Best of luck.

[SAnVA]

You stated that these are to be 6X6 posts for the shop you are building, I am hoping these are going to be above ground on a concrete pier, not buried in the ground. If they are free I would sure try to use them(above ground) and as others said maybe saw oversized so they can be resawn after drying

[drobertson]

I've seen this all too often, not the log quality or quantity  to fill the bill to get it done as desired.  However at times adjustments have to be made.  It just gets hard when dealing with knots and timbers that react in a bad way.   May not happen, but the chances are greater with these.  The knots are the issue during the drying out process.

[acrosteve]

Thanks guys.

Yes, definitely on concrete piers, with brackets.

One other option I just thought of.
What about sawing them and using them green?  Put them up right away without stickering them for a while?

That may just make a bad situation worse, but maybe the purlins would help hod the posts straight.


Then laminating the posts - -does have it's advantages, but if i cut the lumber at 2" thick, it might move even more than the posts while it dries?

[rooster 58]

I'm afraid that some of those large knots will weaken the post and compromise the strength and load bearing capacity, if they can not be sawn out of the cant

[beenthere]

acrosteve

I think most of the answers to your questions will unfold as you open up these logs and start to saw them into first some jacket boards and then into whatever makes sense as you see the wood.

The limbs were not that large when the tree was just a few inches (like 6-8") in diameter so the center core may still make a good 6x6. Outside of that, obvious that the limbs grew much bigger and will be large knots in whatever product.

[Joe Hillmann]

I hope I can get 5 posts each  from the two larger logs, However, the log in the center is the 2nd log from the tallest tree.  I will likely have to split the pith on it to get more than one 6x6 from it.  But, I am concerned about the stability of getting 4 6x6 that way.  I wonder if I just slab off the sides, then split it into oversided quarters, and then let them dry for a few months.  Then dress them down to size again.

Even if you do get 5 posts out of each of them those knots are so large the posts will probably break under their own weight.  I saw up a lot of knotty white pine that look almost as full of knots as your logs and I wouldn't consider using them for anything load bearing.  Often when I pull the boards off the mill they break in half at a knot.  And if they don't break and the knot is on the edge of the board when it drys there will be a crook in the board at every knot.

[terrifictimbersllc]

I'd question using pine or spruce posts if the bottoms could be repeatedly exposed to wetting, whether there's a standoff or not.  Seems to me there'd be a lot of rot after 5-10 years or so. 

[drobertson]

there's no doubt the knots will get smaller as you get into the log,  drying will cause some kinks in straightness, but put up green will help if the behave to that point.   As far as the rot, well not sure on the white pine, I'm thinking if you keep the moisture away they should harden off.  the jacket wood will be what it is, as will the post however you decide to saw them out.  Wood is wood and it moves around, sometimes for the better, other times not so.

[learner]

I've found that sawing horns up first makes it easier to turn the log on the mill after the first cuts.  As for pine well, be it northern or southern, the pine tree is much more prone to stress developing as it grows because being a softwood it bends a lot in the wind.  Cedar is the same.  In fact, I have several pine logs here with ring shake.  In case you don't know what that is acrosteve, its where the tree bent so much during a wind storm that the rings inside the tree separated.  When this happens the very center of the log is usually the only good wood you can get from the log.  We just get a few boards from them and use the centers for poles.  I usually turn the pine logs several times while sawing to relieve as much stress as I can.  This doesn't always work though!  I was sawing a 20' pine into 6x6's a couple months ago and when I went to plank it(cut the cant in half to turn and cut in half again) it sounded like a gun shot and the cant split and jumped up 2 inches.  The last 8 feet of the cant was ruined!  The stress in the log was so great that after I passed the half way point it just ripped the cant in two.    I have to tell you I dang near jumped right off the mill!  My point is what I tell everyone I saw logs for when they ask what I can get out of the log for them.  I just wont know until I cut into it.  I've sawn freshly dropped live trees that were mush on the inside but solid and good looking on the outside.  I've sawn logs from trees that have been dead and down for a year and gotten beautiful boards from them.  It's a crap shoot basically.  As remle says the center(cheater post) is always the best bet.  That's why telephone and power poles are always a whole small tree or cut from the center.  As for using the lumber green.  Well that works in some situations and not others.  If Not exposed to direct sunlight it may dry relatively well with enough ventilation.  I have several buildings built with green pine and red oak.  They are solid and very sturdy(65mph winds didn't faze them).  However, All the poles or supporting post are either oak or cedar and they were covered by the roofs to keep the direct sun off of them.  I've only used pine in pole barns where the center of the tree was the supporting post.  Green pine is best used for 1x4 roof supports for decking or metal to be secured to or for board and batten or lap siding.  It can also be used for roofing if covered with tar paper and shingles to prevent leaks.  But it has to be shingled soon after installing to keep the direct sun off of it.  2x4's and 2x6's need to be dried at least 65% to ensure they don't move too much or warp and separate where they are joined to other boards. Otherwise you will need to use hurricane straps and secure them well.  And you may still get warping in the roof so be careful.  I can tell you more but I've already written a book here lol!  Drop me a line if you have any questions about buildings.

[beenthere]

As for pine well, be it northern or southern, the pine tree is much more prone to stress developing as it grows because being a softwood it bends a lot in the wind.  Cedar is the same.  In fact, I have several pine logs here with ring shake.  In case you don't know what that is acrosteve, its where the tree bent so much during a wind storm that the rings inside the tree separated.

Are you certain about that? Or does it just seem intuitive, as a way to explain it? 

[4x4American]

subscribed

[5quarter]

 

Are you certain about that? Or does it just seem intuitive, as a way to explain it?

Now that there is diplomatic... ;)

[Jemclimber]

I would listen to BT in regards to your posts. He usually beats me to a response, and I've always seen accurate information in his writing. 



He also has a very diplomatic way of correcting or questioning responses that possibly may not be factual.  I'm not sure I have that ability so I usually remain silent.

[Dakota]

I can always count on @beenthere to express what I'm thinking.

[Magicman]

And usually in a very diplomatic way.  To answer with a question invokes thought. 

[acrosteve]

Good info guys.  on my drive home from work today I was thinking about these logs.  I still have to wait to get them opened up, but I think my game plan will be to get one beam out of the center of each, and possibly just cut 2x stock from the jacket boards to laminate into posts on the faces where the knots are prominent.

The building will be enclosed and the only water the posts will be subject to would be a rare spray from a water hose while washing a vehicle inside.

[acrosteve]

Finally!

In addition to some misc 1x and 2x stuff, I got 7 6x6's and 3 4x6's out of these three logs.  Let's see how straight they stay, but I have my doubts about one or two of them.  Also, there is a 18' long 4x10 that would go great for the header over the opening to a future solar kiln.









Had to do quite a bit of bibying to the butt end of the one with the largest knots.  Ended up with just one 6x6 and a few of 4x6's from it.




Final whack of the big wood.  Still a pile of 2x and 1x to edge, but I had a full day with this and some other excavator work I needed to get done while I had it.




I hove one more long log to cut, which will yield only one 15' 6x6.  Some sort of pine, but definitely not white like the others.  This is the 7' but cut of the log.

Anybody identify it?

[Chuck White]

Looks like Red Pine!

[Magicman]

Looks like you have been quite busy.   8)

[dboyt]

I can already see the stress in your 4th photo.  Always amazing how much better the lumber looks once it has been cleaned up.  Looks like you did a good job boxing the heart.

[Ox]

Looks like Red Pine!

2x

[acrosteve]

Let me say that now that I have sawn some red pine, I hope I never saw any more.  While I did get 3 marginal 6x6 posts from the log, there was massive pitch buildup on the blade and wheels.  And a tendency to produce wavy cuts.

Lots of pitch pockets throughout the whole log.  I still have the 8' long but end, but have doubts on if I want to process it or not.









But it does look nice from a distance

[Ox]

I must say I've never seen those pitch pockets in the red pine on this here hill.  I wonder why the difference?  What actually causes them?

[acrosteve]

Well, I finally have an update.  After letting the posts air dry for a few months, I tossed them back up on the mill and trimmed them to a final size of 5-1/2 sq.

I must say that they held up better than I thought they would, and my builder was very pleased.  They all cleaned up very well and stayed square.  The worst one of the bunch was one of the red pines, but the pitch was fairly well centered in the cant.




And the rest of the project





And one post I did not cut - other than to cut 24' off the end of it.  I just used the bottome 16' :lol: