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Additives in Central Boiler water jacket?

Started by Engineer, January 26, 2015, 01:12:44 PM

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Engineer

I'm probably gonna start a ruckus here, but let's say this is all hypothetical... :D

So, hypothetically, let's say that a person refused to use the "additives" and chemicals that CB says to use in their systems.  Let's say that the pH tests and etc. appeared to indicate that all that stuff might not be necessary.  What would be the eventual outcome of that situation?

Reason I ask is, a guy I know  ::), has one of these systems and keeps the water jacket filled pretty reliably, but had not added any new water in a few months.  When he drew off some water last week from the drain valve at the bottom of the water jacket, there was about an ounce of slightly reddish-tinged water and then the rest of it was as clear as the original well water - no sediment, no color, no floating debris or sludge, nothing.  I expected -- ahem, uh, I mean, HE expected there to be a lot of rust and sediment in the water, especially in the vicinity of the drain, and was surprised to see the water so clean.

This person actually has purchased a couple of gallons of the "inhibitor" and it's on a shelf in his shed.  He also has a can of Ashtrol which never gets used.  What would be the benefit of using any of this stuff (it appears to be a good way for CB to make money) if it's not apparently necessary?

The only thing I could see using on a regular basis is something that would get rid of thick, sticky creosote deposits but that's another issue entirely.

beenthere

Sounds like you know the answer already and can give this fellow some good advice.  8)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

buckgrunt

From what I was told, the additive for the water is very important to prevent rusting.  The Astrol is still a toss up as I rarely use it. 

Dave Shepard

A friend of mine ran his 6048 for at least a year without it. I don't know if he then added it, or that was when he sold it to his neighbor. Still running today about 8-9 years later. I haven't added any yet, as I don't have the money. Any water I drain off is clear. I'll probably add it as soon as I can for the "better safe than sorry" value. I have only added water to my system after my draft door stuck open and it overheated. It didn't take much to top it off, so I think spread out of time, it's not a big investment. What do other manufacturers suggest? I don't use ashtrol. I have some creosote in there, but pine burns hot and clean most of the time.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

garret

NO2- (nitrite ion) definitely inhibits oxidative corrosion of ferrous metals.  It is well understood chemistry. Whats more, it does this to great effect even in low concentration (<3000 ppm).  It is literally an ounce of prevention.  That being said, I also know of folks that have never added it to their OWBs and have no leaks for better than 8 years.  Cannot confirm this.

As for the Ashtrol, its supposed to help neutralize acid forming deposits (presumably phenolics, cresoles ?) and help loosen these.  I would like to believe this.  ut, from my personal observations, can't see much improvement.  A fellow OWB operator calls it fairy dust.  If I would l If I were to guess, I would say the primary ingredient is lime.  Glad you brought this up.  I am going to put a sample in the SEM (Scanning Electron Microscope) and use the energy dispersive x-ray specrometric technique along with x-ray diffraction to get to the bottom of this.  May not be able to identify the exact composition, but should be able to determine mineralogy and bulk composition.
E-Classic 2400 comfortably heating 4,200 sq.ft. and unlimited DHW, Off-grid, Photovoltaic-powered pumps in gloomy SW PA , 34 t splitter, numerous Husky chainsaws

Farmerjw

I understand your, excuse me, your friend's hesitation.  ::) :D
I put the chemical in the water when we initially filled the OWB and then just topped it off with the garden hose out of the well when needed (not that often).  That OWB heated our house for 14 years.  This year was the last year to get the classic stove so bit the bullet and purchased a new stove.  Didn't advertise my old stove as I was "concerned" about the water when I drained it.  I hooked a hose to the drain so the area around the pad didn't become a mud pit while installing the new stove.  Took a clean bucket and filled it from the hose as I was shocked :o :o :o, it was as clear as our tap water.  I was impressed.  I think it had to do with a few issues, one, I was lucky.  Also it was well water and we don't have "hard" water.  I think if a person were filling from a town water supply they would have more issues as there is more stuff added to their water.  That's my story.
Premier Bovine Scatologist

bandmiller2

What you add to your boiler water depends on where you live as water varies greatly at different locations. If you have a sealed system the water will soon become "dead" and not corrode any more. If your system is open you should treat the water and the feed water. The biggie is PH that is easy to test with litmus paper and a card, and controlled with cheap available soda ash. If you want to get more involved find a local industry that uses the same water as you and talk to their chief engineer. Industry uses water treatment co.'s that test the water and compound a conditioner for their operation. Most of the time the engineer will give you some stuff to try. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Engineer

My system is open (typical Central Boiler loop).  I have well water that is extremely hard, but is treated in a basic salt pellet water softener before it goes into the water jacket.  I have a valve in the basement that allows me to inject clean water into the water jacket anytime I want, so every few months I will "top it off".  My water pH is just over 7, very slightly alkaline.

I have drawn off a few more gallons in the past couple of weeks, just to see if it was a fluke - it wasn't.  The water is still crystal clear.

It may have to do with the boiler being in use continuously for the past 8 years.  It's been down less than 24 total hours in that time period.

go green

Here is a real easy test for you to confirm the importance of the inhibitor.  Get some new clean non soapy steel wool.  In two separate clear jars put a good piece of steel wool.  Add water from your domestic, "supply water" tap that you use to fill the furnace in to one of the jars with steel wool and no inhibitor.  The other jar add water that is properly treated the P/N 1650 inhibitor to the recommended nitrite test level, 2000ppm = minimum 20 no more than maximum of 30 drops when tested.  You will see corrosion start on the steel wool within a few hours in the untreated, no inhibitor jar.  The properly treated jar with steel wool will remain bright and clear for years.  The inhibitor is very stable and unless there is fresh uninhibited water added the inhibitor level will remain constant.  It is best though to be sure to check the inhibitor level every 6 months to confirm.  The inhibitor cost divided over several years is very cheap preventative.  Be sure to add the inhibitor before the furnace is filled with water the first time and circulate after filling to adequately mix in the system.  I expect someone will take the initiative to complete this test and post some photos of the two samples. 

I certainly hope no one took the suggestion of not using inhibitor because within the first few hours corrosion will begin to occur in a system that is not properly inhibited.  Central Boiler has many years of Corrosion Coupon testing in systems and when the test coupons (steel samples) are removed from the properly treated systems the corrosion protection confirms there would be no waterjacket corrosion failures far beyond 50 years.  Tests also confirm even the ferritic stainless steel needs inhibitor corrosion protection.  Some claim no need for inhibitor in stainless units.

Logging logginglogging

I use my ashtrol and inhibitor as recommended, Yes the ashtrol is probably just a rip off, However I can't stand thinking "what if??" when I have so much invested in the stove and it is my only source of heat. I do believe in the inhibitor since we are talking about metal and water, a known rust making combination. Do the steel wool test they show in their video on YouTube.

bobby s

Quote from: Logging logginglogging on February 07, 2015, 09:53:52 AM
I use my ashtrol and inhibitor as recommended, Yes the ashtrol is probably just a rip off, However I can't stand thinking "what if??" when I have so much invested in the stove and it is my only source of heat. I do believe in the inhibitor since we are talking about metal and water, a known rust making combination. Do the steel wool test they show in their video on YouTube.
I agree. I test my water in spring and fall and use Ashtrol as directed. Not sure if Ashtrol does anything, but I figure for around $50.00 per year it's worth protecting my investment. Besides, I'd be spending that money on tune ups if I was still burning oil.

Logging logginglogging

Yeah, I never burned oil before I didn't relize people had to do tune ups on them.

And I should just add, Some people say ashtroll is nothing more than common barn lime, I wish someone would prove this because, the we could buy it cheap by the 50lb bag!

firechief

garret,

Any update on the fairy dust test ?

garret

No update on fairy dust yet.  XRD is down for repair and SEM will only give bulk elemental composition, not mineralogy.  Operator is on vacation someplace warm.  I will get back on this
E-Classic 2400 comfortably heating 4,200 sq.ft. and unlimited DHW, Off-grid, Photovoltaic-powered pumps in gloomy SW PA , 34 t splitter, numerous Husky chainsaws

Logging logginglogging


JJ

Garret,
When you do the x-ray spectrum on the ashtrol sample, compare to sample of lime.
hope the spectrum match.

     JJ

firechief


garret

Yes.  And I was hoping this question would just go away.  Unfortunately, I was advised not to post this on a public forum.  I can only speak for Fairy Dust, an imaginary and magical concoction, and a wizard told me that it contains an ingredient in a significant proportion for which there is not a readily available substitute (unless you have access to an industrial chemical supply).  Ingredients not particularly harmful either.  Just follow precautions on Fairy Dust container.  Don't know whether said imaginary ingredient does anything special or magical.  Another imaginary primary ingredient is common and readily available, but perhaps not in a powdered form.  Choice to use Fairy Dust is entirely up to you.  Considering the cost of the equipment that may benefit, I choose to continue using Fairy Dust, even if the observed benefits are marginal.

I apologize in advance for my cowardice.  This is an extremely litigious society we live in.
E-Classic 2400 comfortably heating 4,200 sq.ft. and unlimited DHW, Off-grid, Photovoltaic-powered pumps in gloomy SW PA , 34 t splitter, numerous Husky chainsaws

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