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Forwarding trailer hydraulics

Started by repmma, January 24, 2015, 02:53:50 PM

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repmma

I came across an old thread from 2011 that discussed using a 2 stage pump for a forwarding trailer hydraulics.  Just wondering if anyone can tell me what they have for motor/pump on their loaders, be it factory or home built systems.  I'm leaning towards going with a 16gpm 2stage for my patu 203 loader, though id like to know if anyone has had success with a similar setup before I get to far! Thanks
Thomas 8020, Timberjack 225C, Ford 5030 with Norse 450 winch, stihl saws and 142 acres to manage.

North River Energy

I think one of the arguments against using a two stage 'log splitter' pump is that variable load will lead to variable bucket/boom speed as the pump shifts back and forth between stages.
Which might be hard to modulate, with possible safety consequences.

bill m

North River Energy has it correct. Using a 2 stage pump is not a good idea.
NH tc55da Metavic 4x4 trailer Stihl and Husky saws

Ed_K

 Not a good idea, you'll end up trying to pick up a big log and bend the boom. When I first bought my loader from Bailey's I ran it with an 8 hp motor with a 11.5 gal 2 stage pump.Had it on an old boat trailer,and did just that.
Ed K

lopet

What is your  loader running off now ?  And what are you trying to do or improve ?
Make sure you know how to fall properly when you fall and as to not hurt anyone around you.
Also remember, it's not the fall what hurts, its the sudden stop. !!

repmma

My biggest concern was going to be the flow on the 2nd stage.  I didnt think there would be appreciable jerking motion figuring that once it got to where it was switched to the second stage it would likely stay since the load would be relatively steady once its holding a log. 

Surprising to me that you could bend a boom because of a 2 stage pump, seems like max pressure has more to do with that then how many stages, unless it was motion that contributed to it.

I use the tractor hydraulic remotes currently, but would like it to be stand alone.  I'm not dying to do it, just figured it would be a plus.  I'll have to look into what I need to run a single stage pump around 8gpm - 2500psi.  Suggestions or experiences? 

Thanks for the replys!
Thomas 8020, Timberjack 225C, Ford 5030 with Norse 450 winch, stihl saws and 142 acres to manage.

Ed_K

 I'm now running it with tractor remotes also,14 gals a min.I rebuilt the main and stick booms with 3/8" plate.But it still has a noticeable bend to it.
Ed K

lopet

Just get a Honda power pack, but 8 gpm seems  kinda low to me.  We have several members here who run forwarding trailers with independent  hydraulic systems, just wait until somebody will chime in.  Don't think you will be happy with a two stage pump for the reasons being mentioned already.
Make sure you know how to fall properly when you fall and as to not hurt anyone around you.
Also remember, it's not the fall what hurts, its the sudden stop. !!

Stephen Alford

  FWIW  the ford tractor I use has 11gpm but the flow control on the remotes make the difference . The  lad at Hants in NS told me the the most common is a 13 hp honda with 8gpm single stage pump. I think in the 2500.00 range.   :)
logon

repmma

8gpm would be on the low end of OEM specs.  It is pretty quick now with the tractor hydraulics, not real interested in having to hang a 20hp off it just to power a 13gpm single stage...
Thomas 8020, Timberjack 225C, Ford 5030 with Norse 450 winch, stihl saws and 142 acres to manage.

repmma

$2500...  Tractor hydraulics it is!
Thomas 8020, Timberjack 225C, Ford 5030 with Norse 450 winch, stihl saws and 142 acres to manage.

North River Energy

Could you hang one of those pto pumps off the back of your tractor, and mount the reservoir to the trailer?  That would give you maybe 20gpm @$600 or thereabouts.

dwchaisson

Hey I went with a 12 hp Briggs, and a 6gpm pump, plenty of power but a little slow, hind sight and a better budget would go 18-20 hp and 10-12 gpm pump, just my thought!
homemade skidder, homemade band mill, home made log loader and trailer, 1993 ford 1 ton,1996 Chevy 1Ton dump, 2010 john deere 5065M with loader, 1987 trackless with blower, 576 husky,565 husky 372husky, homemade processor in the build stage, 900 david brown. 2 fordson majors. Life Long Collector

svart ole

I used to have a PATU 425 and stroke processor on the back of a 425 Belarus. Pump on the tractor was too small. Not enough flow and drove off the timing gears. Not a good thing. Put a PTO driven pump on and a 40 gal. hydraulic tank on it. Life was good except I had to put a cooler on it in the summer. Hi flow, more heat and the PATU was not designed the flow.

So if your problem is that it is too slow you need more flow just see what PATU tells you for pump size. Too big a pump is counter productive. High back pressure, heat and wasted HP.
If you problem is you figure it does not lift like it should check your pressure. Stay within the specs. or you will regret that also. Some tractor hydraulic system may not provide the pressure to meet the PATU specs.  It goes without saying that if you try and put a 60 HP load via the hydraulics on a 30 HP tractor you are not going to do well. Like pulling 40 HP on a pump driven off the timing gears of the engine will make your engine stop when the teeth fall off. If any of you guys want to know how to make the special tools to change timing gears in the engine of a 420 Belarus in the snow in the middle of a Norway plantation I can walk you through it.

Larger loaders will use two section pumps (not two stage) and feed different functions from the two sections feeding two valve banks to get better cycle speed. Like say boom up and swing at the same time. Power beyond valves are another way of trying to do things but not in this case as you are going to work with what you have.

A two stage as in log splitter pump is not the way you need to go for this type of application. Think about why you would want to have a loader that when you picked up a heavy load everything slowed down because the pump output dropped. If you want slow you feather the control lever.

PATU makes nice stuff just never liked the BSPP fittings and steel lines. The processor was just too slow to get the production I wanted but they made a wood splitter option and it would have made a better firewood processor.

Just the view from this side of the swamp.
My wife said I collect junk, I told her I am a amateur industrial archaeologist just trying to save valuable artifacts.

78NHTFY

Interesting thread everyone.  svart ole--not to hijack this, but on the off-chance, do you have a contact at PATU in Finland?  Am looking to get a rebuilding kit for my PATU 525 hydraulic control. Thanks & all the best, Rob. 
If you have time, you win....

Puffergas

Used tractor hydraulics on a rotoboom but the pressure was always a bit low. At one time had a 6 HP engine and two stage pump, that had the needed pressure but too slow for production but worked for me. Slow like a winch. Never came close to bending anything. No bypass grapple so liked to bit into some of the logs.
Jeff
Somewhere 20 miles south of Lake Erie.

GEHL 5624 skid steer, Trojan 114, Timberjack 225D, D&L SB1020 mill, Steiger Bearcat II

svart ole

Rob,

As for parts for PATU I got mine for Rusch Equipment in Antigo, Wi. but I think they are out of it now. The loaders where made by Kesla Oyj and marketed under the name PATU.  You could talk to them and they would point you in the right direction http://www.kesla.fi/

That said if what you are looking for is seals, I used to buy the seals for my stroke cylinder from this outfit http://www.alleghenyyork.com/
When I used to deal with them they had anything you could think of and at that time they would sell to a logger not just a distributor. Always liked doing business with them. That has been over 20 years ago so don't know what they are like today.

I do not do much other than cut my own firewood anymore. Although I have a belsaw mill sitting out back that needs new wood and put back together. Also a J W Penny bolter that I have never set up that whimpers every time I walk by it. Some day I will have a relapse and start making sawdust again I am sure.

Good luck to you, us old guys got to stick together.

My wife said I collect junk, I told her I am a amateur industrial archaeologist just trying to save valuable artifacts.

HiTech

Didn't Blue Ox have a trailer/loader combo that had an 18hp Honda with a 28 gal per minute two stage pump? I remember seeing them at the Boonville Woodsmen's Field Days. They were impressive but haven't seen them in awhile. They looked to be well built. Heard they went out of business.

tapper2

It was me who had that thread originally. I have used the same 5.5hp Honda engine with little 11gpm 2 stage pump for a few years now. I can tell you it is really strong, and will lift quite a bit. I have done approx 40 full cords of firewood/year using the setup I put together. It will move quickly when no load, but moves slow under a load, just like a splitter. All in all I love the setup though. I had the parts already, so cost wasn't an issue.
Belsaw m14, 1992 Ford 1720, Homebuilt  bandmill, Franklin 120b & a bunch of worn out, banged up stuff........gotta love it.

repmma

Quote from: tapper2 on February 15, 2015, 08:18:45 PM
It was me who had that thread originally. I have used the same 5.5hp Honda engine with little 11gpm 2 stage pump for a few years now. I can tell you it is really strong, and will lift quite a bit. I have done approx 40 full cords of firewood/year using the setup I put together. It will move quickly when no load, but moves slow under a load, just like a splitter. All in all I love the setup though. I had the parts already, so cost wasn't an issue.

Hey thanks for the review of how its worked for yah!  I'm not worried about speed as long as its not crazy slow, it can get quiet jerky now with just the tractor hydraulics so I could probably stand to see it slow down. 
Thomas 8020, Timberjack 225C, Ford 5030 with Norse 450 winch, stihl saws and 142 acres to manage.

repmma

I've got plenty of time to mull it over, I'm not about to dig the trailer out of the snow drifts in the field!
Thomas 8020, Timberjack 225C, Ford 5030 with Norse 450 winch, stihl saws and 142 acres to manage.

78NHTFY

Quote from: svart ole on February 10, 2015, 04:29:14 AM
Rob,

As for parts for PATU I got mine for Rusch Equipment in Antigo, Wi. but I think they are out of it now. The loaders where made by Kesla Oyj and marketed under the name PATU.  You could talk to them and they would point you in the right direction http://www.kesla.fi/

That said if what you are looking for is seals, I used to buy the seals for my stroke cylinder from this outfit http://www.alleghenyyork.com/
When I used to deal with them they had anything you could think of and at that time they would sell to a logger not just a distributor. Always liked doing business with them. That has been over 20 years ago so don't know what they are like today.

I do not do much other than cut my own firewood anymore. Although I have a belsaw mill sitting out back that needs new wood and put back together. Also a J W Penny bolter that I have never set up that whimpers every time I walk by it. Some day I will have a relapse and start making sawdust again I am sure.

Good luck to you, us old guys got to stick together.

Svart Ole-
Thanks for the info--will definitely check into it.  Meanwhile we have below zero temps, winds between 15 - 35 mph and over 3 ft of snow on the ground.  Keeping very busy just filling the wood stoves. :)  All the best, Rob.
If you have time, you win....

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