How Green are you

[Arthur]

since buying an EcoSaw I have had abuse from both the traditional millers for being green and the greens for logging their presious trees (even though the trees are owned by me).

some of the abuse has been to the point of violence.

I admit to tree hugging but this is only to feel how big the tree is and to see which way it wants to fall.

so how green do you think you are ???

[Tom]

I think that the only "true" Green's are those who make their living in the woods or farm trees.  If you want to really see an educated Green, Meet a graduate Forester.

Those people who run willy nilly about the woods, sitting in trees, destroying equipment, demanding that land owners do their bidding and take up precious court time trying to make it a crime to cut a tree are Wacko's.  They are generally joiners who own nothing, live in an apartment in a big city and are looking for a mission in life.  Anything would do for a mission and they would be just as happy sitting on the road in front of a bus to condemn their idea of frivolous fuel use.

I guess I'm Green but right at home on this board.  It is composed of a lot of people who love nature, the woods, trees and the esthetic's as well as the economics involved.

It won't take you long being around here to realize that we are a community of "Real" folks.

[jerry-m]

Well Said TOM 8)

[Fla._Deadheader]

  Can't add a thing to Tom's statement.  8) 8)

[sprucebunny]

I'll second that well said.
I'm green enough. I own the piece of land I do because it was about to be "liquidated" and I was in the market for land with trees still on it.It was also the right price in the right area.
The local people have all these rumors about how I'm going to develop it. And little appreciation for the fact that I saved the center of thier town from an ugly flattening.But the beavers are all happy that I put my money where everyone's mouth is.
In a few years after some TSI maybe when they ride the skidoo trail tthru there, they'll appreciate me but I'm not holding my breath .

[etat]

well, i recon i'm glad of the way tom is taking this thread.  

I guess I'm Green but right at home on this board.  It is composed of a lot of people who love nature, the woods, trees and the esthetic's as well as the economics involved.  

i never thought about being green or blue for that matter but your answer. tom. absolutely describes my feelings and i feel was perfectly said.

[Ron Wenrich]

You have 3 different types of people when it comes to being green.  There are exploiters, conservationists, and preservations.  There are shades on either side of the scale, so someone may fit a little into each category.

Exploiters are the guys who go out and do what they want to the environment with little disregard for anyone else.  These are the high graders in life - take what you want now.

Conservationists are the ones that use practical management of the resources which includes current and future use.

Preservationists are the ones who want to lock the door and throw away the key.  

How green am I?  It depends on what you are talking about.  We have areas of old growth timber in our state.  Do I think it should be preserved?  You bet!

I can't think of any area that I'm an exploiter.  I drive a practical car, keep my energy consumption low, and don't need those things that exploit the environment.  I'm a green consumer, to some extent.

Unfortunately, some exploiters and preservationts think they are conservationts.  Someday they may get it right, but I doubt it.

[leweee]

GREEN  I thought he was talken about( lack of experience, a newbie, Greenhorn) Reading further I realized he meant   .....green party.....(as in politics OR greenpeace don't ya just love the english language for all those meanings from just one word..As for me I've planted more trees than I've murdered as a logger....so I guess I'm GREEN as spruce needles ;D :D

[MemphisLogger]

See if I can stir things up here a bit . . .

I sat in a huge Redwood for almost a month in 1989. The tree was in a 4500 acre stand of virgin Redwood on Pacific Lumber Company land.

I was in school in the Bay Area at the time and spending my free time rock climbing, surfing and chasing young women.

The young women I was most attracted to were the nature loving, makeup abhorring young "hippies" that wanted to save the last groves of virgin Redwood in Northern California, save the dolphins, etc. They talked me into teaching them how to use my climbing gear (ropes, harnesses, etc.)

I was also troubled by the fact that Pacific Lumber Company had just been purchased by a robber baron named Charles Hurwitz using junk bonds written by none other than Michael Milken. The bonds were drawn on a savings and loan in Texas, one of the first to go belly up causing the big savings and loan bailout that soaked us taxpayers in 1989.

Upon taking control of the previously family owned Pacific Lumber Company, Mr. Hurwitz tripled the family's established sustainable harvest rate and started exporting whole logs to Japan as he closed the company's local mills, busted the loggers' union and raided the company pension plan to pay off his junk bond debt.

When I moved back to Tennessee, I worked with a coalition of local sawmill operators and environmentalists to get the Tennessee Valley Authority to deny permits for 3 high capacity hardwood chipmills (300,000+ tons per year).

I then helped found a coalition of local groups across the South to work on educating landowners, state officials and forest users about the concerns of the "cut-out and get-out" type of forestry that accompanies a chip mill or oriented strand board mill that sources 300,000 tons or more a year of hardwood from a 50-60 mile radius area. This much wood outta such a small area inevitably leads to massive clearcuts, water quality problems and serious damage to the local sawing and value-added industries as they see their growing stock vanish thru the chipper.

In 2000, I played a key role in convincing the State of Missouri to place a moratorium on any new high capacity chipmills in the state. While "environmental" concerns were the legal trigger, the main reason was to protect the state's robust sawmill and wood-based manufacturing industries.
      
I also work actively to ensure that the National Forests near my home (including Land Between the Lakes) are selectively managed for the benefit of wildlife and NOT converted to pulp plantations.

If any of this makes me a "wacko", I will wear the badge proudly as I too hug my trees at breast height and saw my sustainably harvested and completely renewable wood.  ;)    

[DanG]

Naw, Scott, you're not a wacko. You are an activist, but one that uses knowledge and experience to choose your causes. The wackos are uninformed or misinformed lemmings that take up a cause without bothering to learn the truth. We need more folks like you that are willing to fight for worthy causes, whether that be for change or preservation. When things are right, we gotta keep'em that way, and when they're wrong, we gotta change them.

Plantation trees are one of our most valuable resources. They provide the material we need without cutting what's left of our natural forests. This doesn't mean that it is the right thing for everywhere, however.

I'm tickled to see so much going to the chipper at the OSB plant south of me for one reason; every sheet of OSB that is used takes the place of a sheet of plywood. The plywood mill north of me uses only the biggest and straightest logs, usually the ones that have grown naturally. The OSB plant is mostly using the thinnings from all the 20-30 year old plantations.

[Arthur]

Glad to see the response to being Green

I guess im greener than most and activly promote sustainable logging buy good management practise.

most of NSW in Austalia has been devistated and the same is now happening in WA and TAS.

In South Australia there are softwood plantations that are now ready for harvest and are large enough to supply Australias wood needs with ALL the wood without ever having to mill another hardwood native.

The problem is softwood even in platations doesnt get half the money hardwood does so clear felling of hardwoods occurs.

In Europe many years ago before we had anything other than foot transport we still had the need for wood.  Probably a greater need yet one small woods near the village could sustainable supply all the building , fire wood, etc. that was required due to managing the resource.

I bought the EcoSaw company to make money but I make more money as a Computer consultant than I will ever make promoting the mills.  I guess buying the company was like buying our Rare Breeds Farm.  Its a mission in life to promote the GREEN issue in what I consider to be the right way, im not in your face doing it (except if you come to an expo where I am demoing the mills) I just get on with it and give anyone who asks information. Im also taking advise from whoever can give it.  

the main reason for joining this forum.

[Tillaway]

Urbanlogger
I was one of the cruisers on the Palco Headwaters forest when Palco sold it to the the feds.  Its now BLM land landlocked inside Palco property.  Only one foot access trail on the elk river goes in there.  Palco got about $200,000,000 more than it was worth, thats right 200 million and thats conservative.
The family that managed Palco greatly underestimated thier standing volume to avoid paying california property tax.  Hurwitz moved on a low hanging fruit.  Thats partly how the family lost the lands.  Also there were also some major mistakes made by the family in the failed attempt to prevent the takeover.
A very good friend of mine works for Palco now.  It is about the only company in California that is actually making investments in forestry and milling.  They have refitted the small log mill with new equipment.  Built a monitoring lab to comply with water quality and HCP requirements.  They are the only wood products company in California to have made these investments.  Sierra Pacific Industries on the other hand has closed one mill and shipped it to Washington state.  They and others are quitely liquidating thier "higher and better useage" lands.  Read development properties.

To everyones amazement its turned out ok so far, but probably not as well if the previous owners had managed to keep it.  It was thought that Hurwitz would cut and run but so far that has not happened.

[MemphisLogger]

Tillaway,

I agree with you that we taxpayers got milked on the Headwaters buyout--too bad Hurwitz couldn't be magnanimous like the family was when they negotiated the State Park preserves years back.

I also agree that the current situation on Palco lands is better than once feared but I believe this has more to do with the Board of Forestry's diligence and constant pressure from the public than Hurwitz's love for the forest.

As for Hurwitz, I'd still like to see him get tagged for his role in the savings and loan fiasco.

  

[Tillaway]

Some folks are a bit miffed that he didn't pay back the S&L deal with the headwaters.  Either way the whole thing was all botched up from the beginning.

The current management at Palco is probably the driving force behind the good things that have happened there.  The BOF in California has no say on business decisions.

[Cedarman]

I am green enough that I would like to see a yard tax. It would be better to run a chainsaw every so often than a lawnmower 6 months of the year.  The most polluted land we have are the yards that are kept green and free of weeds through the excess use of chemicals and fertilizers.  I am in favor of a progressive tax based on the size of the yard.  The bigger the yard the higher the tax rate.  I see too many farms and woodlands broken up and several acres bulldozed and made into yards when trees would be a lot better.  
I have read about people who died after walking across a golf course because too many chemicals were used.
I would like to know how many treehugging wackos live in houses with big suburban yards or apartment complexes with big manicured courtyards and work for companies that have huge yards around there offices.  Take a drive to the burbs and see.  
Save our environment, shoot a riding lawn mower!

[Striker]

Not knowing much about the ECO saws, I just wonder what makes you so much greener? (acorrding to the traditional millers) It is still a machine that can be used to draw and quarter murdered trees. ;D
From what I have seen of it it looks like it is worth looking into. ( the saw mill that is)

Jeff

[sprucebunny]

Cedarman- I like your idea alot!!

[Bruce_A]

I can't agree with trespassing to hinder private enterprise.  As to shooting those lawn mowers, I am totally against that.  I have about ten of them sitting in my yard. They make great toys to holler at the grand kids to get off of.  My half acre of yard gets mowed two or three time a year and I fertilize most of it with oil and drippings from the junk that "wackos" don't want to pay to get rid of.  If it doesn't look or smell bad it ain't fertilizer.  I recycle anything I can make a buck on easy, which is about 500 ton so far this year.  If you don't get your hands dirty, you have to pay one way or another.  If you don't like logging, try wiping with plastic.  And last, but not least, Ilove my job, love my boss, I'm self-employed.

[Ron Wenrich]

I'm not sure I like that tax.  I have a big yard, never use chemicals and got rid of the riding mower for a commercial walk behind.  Maybe we should just tax the chemicals.   :D

I remember my uncle telling me that there was a time when most people didn't have yards.  They would farm right up to the back door.

But, then I read a blurb that the rich people had vast front "yards" which were actually pastures.  They kept them groomed with sheep.  In those days, the more sheep you had was an indication of how much money you had.

Eventually, when the lawn mower came about, the lower class could put on aires about having a nice yard without the sheep.  Seems like the idea has stuck.

[SwampDonkey]

Mowing lawns with sheep reminds me of my grand father. He never mowed a lawn in his life. If enough complaining was made by grand mother, he'd just go fetch the cow and tether her to the tree. It was my uncle that started mowing and sything and has never stopped. He mows for the cemetary, several elderly folks and his cousins next door who live in Toronto,ON and Truro, NS. He's up before the sun every day of the week, but mows 5 days a week. But, only in the morning hours. Three days a week he looks after an elderly lady on the indian reserve. Most every evening he gets invited to the local dance halls by the local widow women or plays cards in the evenings in winter months and has a good life.

The extend of his wood cuttin is firewood for him and cousins next door off a woodlot they all share. Doesn't get too excited in life and is further ahead than most folks pounding and slaving away at the old uphill grind. He sold some inherited woodland and road frontage to live off, and the woodland was not clearcut by the buyer. He only cleared 10 acres of frontage, as that was the deal. He always had a cow and a horse until 2 years ago, which weren't making him any money for several years.  Not everyone could do this because they didn't have a father like grand father was that left him something more than a brush pile. Grand father pretty much did what he had to for the family's sake and also never got excited over anything. If you came along and mentioned hunting or fishing all work ceased and off they went. :D Now if we could all live like those folks. ;)

[BW_Williams]

I keep one foot in the black, so-called enviromentalist are killing my forest.  Let's get back to practical forest managment or it all will be burnt down before our children get to make the decision.  Haven't seen very many greeners on the fire line.  BWW

[Arthur]

Striker
 
 Its not the EcoSaw that the large milling companies have given me agro over its the local meeting attended with views spoke.

54% of our local shire is controlled by the NSW forestry department.  The Bellingen area is renown for its natural splender and backs onto a world heritage site. The area has been logged for the last 150 year.  Most of the private owned land like our farm is regrowth but we are  reminded by the forestry department and the local GREEN PARTY that the views are only there because the forest has another few years of growth yet before being logged.

The logging will be clear felling mainly supplying logs to mills outside our area.

NO benefit to the area, NO employment for the area, just dust, noise and 100ton trucks on our childrens bus routes.

My outspoken views have been the sustainable forest management with selective logging using portable sawmills.  EcoSaw, Lucas, Peterson,  etc. it doesnt matter to me.  

By selective logging a good portion of trees can be left for the views and future large logs when the regrowth can continue to give the views when the large trees are eventuly taken.  This benefits the habitat, the tourist and the ecology.

I should get my paper out and attach but I dont wish to bore any futher.

[TN_man]

We bought some land that had been clear cut several years back. Ours neighbors say that every time it rained the road was covered with another layer of mud (my topsoil) >:(. We save up the sawdust that we generate and use it for bedding for our cows when we move them in the barn for the winter. We mix in a little corn and oates with the sawdust when we spread it out. At the end of the winter our stall (40x16) has about 3 to 4 ft. of compost. After we move the cows back into the fields in the spring, we move the pigs into the cow stall for about 8 weeks. They root around digging up that fermented corn and oates, not knowing that they are turning our compost pile for us, and have good time doing it ;D. We then use this compost to build back up the top soil we lost and fertilize our fields at the same time. You should see the huge diiference it is making year after year. We have not gotten back to where we could have been, but we are getting aliitle bit each year. I think that God would have us to make the world alittle better place, morally and phsyically, for having lived here. He put us here to be stewards of His land. Jeff

[Buzz-sawyer]

Well put Jeff, we are stewards of this world,free to use it and destined to care for it

[Buzz-sawyer]

Aurther
A very common view of forest management here on the forum.............and I believe reasonable to do  ......esthetic enjoyment, sustainable use and respect for the land.......good karma be good to mother, she is good to you  ;)