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Why do we waste so much wood in the USA?

Started by Engineer, January 20, 2015, 01:54:46 PM

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4x4American

Quote from: CJennings on January 21, 2015, 08:44:13 AM
There isn't much U.S. Forest Service land in NY state 4x4American. Just a little bit in the Finger Lakes area. You can get the firewood permits on the Green Mountain National Forest in VT last I heard. I don't know if the same is true for the Finger Lakes, which is technically operated from the Rutland VT headquarters.

I don't care if it's US forest service land or state land, I wish that they'd let us do it in state land.  Or some landowners would let us clean up their properties.  Some sort of a system where people without much land who want firewood or sawlogs and are willing to work for it can get it.  They don't have problems taking our tax money but we can't touch any downed trees on state property or on the side of the road.  I saw VT had a bid system or something where you could bid on woodlots.  That's cool.  But it don't help me cause I'm pretty sure you're not allowed to cross in NY from out of state with firewood.
Boy, back in my day..

beenthere

4x4
If you were in charge of a woodlot or forest, how would you set up the "free firewood" plan with the public?  I'm curious... to how it might work as you see it working.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

4x4American

I wouldn't, because I'd be taking care of it myself.  And I never said anything about free, you're putting words in my mouth.  But, as you know, there are many forest fires out in the west.  I've heard a few wildland fire fighters say one thing that doesn't help is the people who buy a bunch of acreage and don't manage it, they just let it go.  If those landowners would let people who need wood come in and help manage the property, then the woods is cleaner, safer, and more enjoyable.  They could work it out on a wood share basis, or a small fee.  I had an ad on craigslist awhile back, catering to older landowners who burn wood, that I'd help do their firewood on a share basis.  Because I need firewood and am willing to work for it.  Plus I like spending time with old timers. 
Boy, back in my day..

Peter Drouin

Around here the trees on the road in front of your land are yours.
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

beenthere

QuoteIf you were in charge of a woodlot or forest, how would you set up the "free firewood" plan with the public?  I'm curious... to how it might work as you see it working.

I'm interested in how you would envision this to work (take out the word free) ?? 

Hopefully you have an idea how a landowner (be it private, or gov't) would enable people to come and gather "wood" off their land. You mention a "system" and I'm curious (because I don't think it is very possible).
QuoteOr some landowners would let us clean up their properties.  Some sort of a system where people without much land who want firewood or sawlogs and are willing to work for it can get it.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

47sawdust

Engineer-
A cordwood saw is a good investment.New Haven Equipment sells a Yankee Woodsman.I bought one used.As BradS said treat it with respect.I try not to leave too much small stuff behind.The wood that is too small to bother skidding with the winch I cut into 8' and under lengths and bring out in the front grapple.We heat our home with a Stanley Waterford cookstove and a Mansfield soapstone stove.I understand that it is not practical for most people to do this.
Mick
1997 WM Lt30 1999 WM twin blade edger Kubota L3750 Tajfun winchGood Health Work is my hobby.

4x4American

"The Department of Forests, Parks and Recreation has made personal use firewood lots available to Vermont residents since the 1970's.  The program's popularity has grown to the point where the demand for lots exceeds the available supply, so in 2009 the Department instituted a lottery system to distribute permits.

FPR's foresters mark the trees to be harvested in 3-cord lots.  These lots are generally located adjacent to woods roads which are accessible by four-wheel drive vehicles.  The standing wood on these lots is sold to Vermont residents who are successful in the lottery.  Permittees must cut and haul their own wood and mechanical skidding is not allowed.  Firewood lots must be left in a condition acceptable to the forester in charge.  Trees may not be left hung up, stumps must be cut close to the ground, and brush must be dragged back away from the road and well out of streams, ditches and culverts.

Permits are valid for one season (generally from early July to early October depending on weather and road conditions) and cost $30 each ($10 per cord).  Participants must sign a waiver of liability and permit fees are non-refundable.

All participants are strongly encouraged to learn chainsaw safety skills before using this equipment.

There is no application fee.  Applications are limited to one per household and applicants may make a first and a second choice.  Please return between January 2nd and 16th to enter the lottery."

-http://www.vtfpr.org/energy/for_energy_roadside_fuelwood.cfm

I wish they would do this in NY.

If some landowners wanted their woods cleaned up in exchange for some firewood or $ they could get on the list.
Boy, back in my day..

AnthonyW

Any chance they have this in NH? How would one find out?

Nevermind. Some hard core googling provided half an answer. http://www.fs.usda.gov/main/whitemountain/passes-permits/forestproducts
'97 Wood-Mizer LT25 All Manual with 15HP Kohler

4x4American

I'm not sure if they do, if you ask me, every state should do it!
Boy, back in my day..

Corley5

  I would never allow anyone to cut firewood on my property unless they had a current and verifiable certificate of insurance that covered them for that activity.  My insurance doesn't allow me to let anyone except my own crew operate on one of my active logs jobs unless they provide proof of insurance coverage that can be verified.  It's all from the lawsuit happy society that we live in.  An injured firewood cutter just has to claim they're working for the contractor or landowner "cleaning up" and there's the lawsuit. 
  I had a guy get really mad at me a few years ago after we cut some maple on the farm woodlots.  My wife and I knew him and his wife distantly.  He found out about the tops, decided we were best friends and was insistent that I let him and his BIL cut firewood and wouldn't take no for an answer.  He even had his wife talk to my wife about it.  We both got the sob story about them having cut firewood 50 miles away and how this would be so much better for them.  I'm sure it would have been.  The last time I talked to him I told him again that if he showed me proof of insurance coverage that covered anyone who would be here involved in harvesting firewood they could cut otherwise if I caught him on the property he would be arrested. 
  Dad and I cut firewood for two seasons until it started to get soft.  Probably half of the tops went back on the ground.  That was better than lawsuits.
  The MiDNR sells firewood permits that allow for 15 full cords of firewood to be cut from a specified area.  The wood must all be dead and down.  No standing dead trees can be cut.  They used to let people slide on this when there was so much dead and dying elm but not anymore.
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

4x4American

Its a darn shame.  Everything is a liability nowadays.  Around here, alot of the snowmachine trails go through private property.  The snowmobile clubs that maintain the trails get the permission from the landowner.  If a rider has an accident on the landowners property, the landowner is not held liable.  If they did something like that for firewooders, and the gov't was involved i'm sure landowners would be fine with it.
Boy, back in my day..

Southside

Personally I would never allow the general public to harvest wood from my property.  Say you get the liability matter resolved, what happens when somebody drops a live tree?  What if they decide to throw a cigarette butt on the ground and start a fire?  Leave a gate open for "just a minute" then drive off while my cattle wander out? No good deed goes unpunished, and I can see this being no exception.  I won't even say sorry, I actually have a friend coming over Saturday who needs some firewood, its already cut, he is bringing his own splitter and we will load it onto my dump trailer and bring it over.  I have no problem being generous, but the general public is off limits. 
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4x4American

(I wouldn't either)  But there's some people out there who have more money and land than they know what to do with and maybe they would.

OP-
That's why we waste so much wood in the USA.
Boy, back in my day..

Joe Hillmann

In many cases the extra labor involved makes it more expensive than it is worth.  Also it isn't wasted to leave it laying on the ground to rot.  It can provide food and homes for all sorts of wildlife.  And once it rots it helps the soil and ties up carbon, both good things.

If you cut a tree in a yard where you need to clean it up then it makes sense to cut up even the smallest branches for firewood cause whatever you don't cut up you still need to remove.  If it is in the woods it will reach a certain size where it is not worth cutting any more (for each person that size will be different. 

Also if you pile the tops in strategic places you can create great hunting conditions for small game and upland birds.  As well as runways for deer hunting.

You can also use the tops to protect other plants.

Rick Alger

Years ago, James River Corp -formerly Brown Company- let me do a pre-commercial thinning of  the hardwoods in a young softwood stand. It provided me with a lot of firewood, and gave them a free silvicultural intervention.  I paid no stumpage, but I believe I had to sign a waiver of liability. 

Maybe this concept would work today.

redprospector

Quote from: 4x4American on January 21, 2015, 07:58:40 PM
I wouldn't, because I'd be taking care of it myself.  And I never said anything about free, you're putting words in my mouth.  But, as you know, there are many forest fires out in the west.  I've heard a few wildland fire fighters say one thing that doesn't help is the people who buy a bunch of acreage and don't manage it, they just let it go.  If those landowners would let people who need wood come in and help manage the property, then the woods is cleaner, safer, and more enjoyable.  They could work it out on a wood share basis, or a small fee.  I had an ad on craigslist awhile back, catering to older landowners who burn wood, that I'd help do their firewood on a share basis.  Because I need firewood and am willing to work for it.  Plus I like spending time with old timers.

Whoa there partner! I live "out in the west", and this type of management is my business. That being said;
I wouldn't listen too close to those "wildland fire fighters" if I were you. Since they're working for a "government agency", what they are saying is like the pot calling the kettle black. Most of the wild fires start on Forest Service, BLM, or some other government land that is in such a poor state of management because of having to fight all of the environmental wacko's to get any "management" done, and then burns across private land that may, or may not have been managed. Either way they are generally moonscaped after the fire goes through (at least in my part of the country). The Forest Service has their hands tied, so they aren't all to blame. But don't lay the blame on the private land owners.
Quote from: 4x4American on January 21, 2015, 10:00:54 PM
Its a darn shame.  Everything is a liability nowadays.  Around here, alot of the snowmachine trails go through private property.  The snowmobile clubs that maintain the trails get the permission from the landowner.  If a rider has an accident on the landowners property, the landowner is not held liable.  If they did something like that for firewooders, and the gov't was involved i'm sure landowners would be fine with it.
I agree that it's a darn shame. But all of the benefits of being trustworthy ended when a man's word quit being his bond. Also, the government being involved might cause a lot of land owners to shy away from your idea. What was the old joke about; "I'm from the government, and I'm here to help."?
Quote from: 4x4American on January 21, 2015, 10:26:54 PM
(I wouldn't either)  But there's some people out there who have more money and land than they know what to do with and maybe they would.

OP-
That's why we waste so much wood in the USA.
Hahaha!
I've worked for some pretty wealthy individuals, and I've never met one that had more than they knew what to do with. That's how they got it, and how they are able to hold on to it...they know exactly what to do with it.
Another thing to consider is the fact that the more money and land that you have, the greater the liability.
I think a small land owner that didn't have much would be more likely to let you cut wood on their property than someone who has a lot to loose.
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pabst79



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Re: Why do we waste so much wood in the USA?
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2015, 02:09:21 pm »
Quote
Around here, when a farmer buys an adjacent piece of property (tillable land), they will take out the fence line, which of course is littered with trees (sometimes a mile long or longer). They usually use a bulldozer/crawler, cut it, and push it into a pile and set it on fire. Same goes for old farmsteads. If there are some really good sized hardwoods, some of the trunks will be salvaged, but for the most part, same MO, push and burn.

The thing I can't figure out is for years the DNR and Dep of Ag has paid farmers to keep some land in CRP for wildlife, why can't we get a little $ to farmers so they would quit pushing miles of fencerow into a pile and burning it. Its such a waste of wood and people wonder why the quail, pheasant, rabbit etc. are dwindling in southern WI, Iowa and Illinois? I would never blame a farmer for wanting a few extra acres to boost yield when grain prices are high, BUT didn't the country learn their lesson back in the dust bowl days, erosion of your best topsoil? That's why fence/tree rows were put in? I would think there would be a happy medium, but maybe I'm too optimistic. I agree I would not allow the average joe to cut wood on my property, just can't be too careful these days. However the amount of hardwood being bulldozed and burned as waste is staggering. :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ smiley_eek_dropjaw
Not sure which came first, but I have chickens and eggs.

delaet20

Quote from: DeerMeadowFarm on January 21, 2015, 09:43:52 AM
I too don't like to waste wood. I process down pretty small, 3" or so. Having a buzz saw was the best thing I ever made for this type of work. I pile up the limbs that are 3" to 6" or so off to the side of my larger logs. When I cut and split the larger pieces I'll fill my dumptruck about 3/4 full than top it off with the limbs as I cut them on the buzz saw.

 

I like your setup. How well does it work with that little engine? I have been looking for a belt pulley so I can run one off my tractor. That style is cheap, where as the shaft driven ones are pricey.

enigmaT120

"Most of the wild fires start on Forest Service, BLM, or some other government land that is in such a poor state of management because of having to fight all of the environmental wacko's to get any "management" done, and then burns across private land that may, or may not have been managed."

Not here.  Our local fires start from people shooting during the dry season (one time a guy firing a 50 caliber with tracers!) or from logging operations, and not on public land.  At least the loggers have fire trucks around, and put the fires out quickly.  I saw where one fire burned up a bunch of young trees, where it started, and petered out where it tried to go into a patch of BLM because the trees were too big and there wasn't enough flammable material on the ground.  If it had got up to the crown that would have been a different story.
Ed Miller
Falls City, Or

4x4American

A old logger I get logs from tells me that mankind interfering with fires is why we have so many diseases and all the brush and junk around.  He firmly believes that fires are good for the forests.  If you manage your land properly, I reckon that's real good too.
Boy, back in my day..

AnthonyW

Quote from: 4x4American on February 02, 2015, 02:23:02 PM
A old logger I get logs from tells me that mankind interfering with fires is why we have so many diseases and all the brush and junk around.  He firmly believes that fires are good for the forests.  If you manage your land properly, I reckon that's real good too.

Someone has to take care of it properly. Either human or mother nature. If we do it wrong, mother nature will correct us. Obviously that includes a lot of fire and brimstone, just like our mothers did to us.
'97 Wood-Mizer LT25 All Manual with 15HP Kohler

barbender

Up here, the Federally managed lands are, as a rule, more poorly managed than other public agencies lands. We had a huge windstorm blow through 3 summers back, and there is still many acres of 100 year old pine laying on the ground on USFS land to the west of our property. I hear they are going to get a chipping contractor in there, I hope so because it is a huge fire hazard.
  To the OP, we leave so much wood waste in the woods because it's not profitable to get it out. I wish there were better systems in place to make use of tops and such, maybe small scale firewooders or something. There is a cycle where wood chips become a hot commodity, and loggers gear up for whole tree chipping. Every few years the markets tank and most of them go bankrupt. Then all the tops stay in the woods again.
Too many irons in the fire

tractorman44

A portion of the answer to the OP's question of the reason for wood-waste is that I think the land owners liability and resultant fear of litigation due to the good intentioned weekend chain-sawyer that gets hurt doing something he really isn't experienced at.... 

My older brother, a retired forester, could give an answer to the governments reasoning, but it would end up being a 10 page dissertation at the minimum. 

What I have a problem with is the burn-pits on the highway or other large construction sites where dozens upon dozens of trees at a time are dozed into pits 20' deep or deeper and 60' long or longer and burned, combustion air being provided by a Cat powered blower that's 15 or 20' wide.  Once burned, the pits are filled in with crushed limestone or clay and sheepsfooted in to 95% compaction then covered with soil.   No one benefits from this type of waste, not even the remaining forestation, bugs or four legged critters.


Engineer

I've never seen the burn pits you mention, but I think a more reasonable alternative would be to run all those trees through a whole-tree chipper and use them for biomass, or even spray them back out onto the site and use them as an organic layer underneath the final topsoil.

Referring back to my original post - when a logging operation ends, what happens to all those chunks off the butt of the tree that get trimmed off by the processor?  I have seen photos and video of massive piles of spruce, fir and cedar chunks where, if they were all dropped in my yard, I'd have firewood for years and I wouldn't complain a bit.

kevin19343

We had the wooded portion of our farm logged out about 8 years ago. Maybe 40 acres. Much of it by now is too rotten to use but i'm still finding firewood logs all over the place. I've taken at least 25 cords out of there.

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