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Author Topic: Standing Timber Bid  (Read 2340 times)

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Offline bigD

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Standing Timber Bid
« on: January 20, 2015, 09:11:35 am »
Hey Folks,
Had a guy call me yesterday and said he has a lot of really big ERC, About 20 great Big Cherries, and some big Walnut.  Want to know what I would cut them for.  I told him I would rather Just pay .35 a bf for the ERC as that seems the going price around here. 
He wants me to cut them also as he says his health is bad.  He does have a tractor with forks to load.  He said he knows $400/Mbf is what logs go for.  Said he was offered $1500/Mbf last year for the walnut.  I have another guy wanting 60 6x6 ERC (10-16', 10-8' and 40-10') so I can sell a lot of 6x6's.
This is about 50 miles from my home so I'd rather set up there and haul the lumber rather than the logs. 
I am new to this and trying to establish myself but I don't want to work for free and get ripped off.  Is there a place where I can find current log prices by species? 
I am meeting him tomorrow to look at the trees and will take pictures to post.
Last thought.  I know that $400 Mbf is the going rate but that is at the mill cut?/right?  If I have to cut them I feel that price should be lower?

As always thanks for all the advice.

Offline bigD

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Re: Standing Timber Bid
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2015, 09:12:21 am »
Also I'm heading outside so I won't be back on the FF until this evening.

Offline sealark37

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Re: Standing Timber Bid
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2015, 09:20:20 am »
Do you have a place to stack & sticker that much lumber?  If you are just getting started, now is the time to decide whether you are going to provide sawing service, or sell lumber.  There is a large difference in time and equipment, as well as facilities required.   Good Luck, and Regards, Clark

Offline Texas Ranger

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Re: Standing Timber Bid
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2015, 11:42:17 am »
In this case a little knowledge goes a long ways.

http://mdc.mo.gov/sites/default/files/resources/2014/11/tptjulyaugsept2014.pdf
a little dated, but a place to start.

Grade effects walnut price, if you have not graded a standing tree, a little help from some one experienced in grading would save a lot of grief. 
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

Offline FarmingSawyer

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Re: Standing Timber Bid
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2015, 04:33:38 pm »
There's a difference between what a log yard, or mill buys logs at delivered to the mill, ie, $400/MBF and Stumpage....what the land owner gets for harvested standing trees....around here that can be on the order of $200/M. The difference is what the logger takes as his operating costs and profit--if any.....quite often the slip from the yard falls short and the landowner is presented with a bill for the trucking, etc.....

One way to structure the deal is to charge by the hour for dropping, delimbing and bucking the logs, stacking brush or cutting tops into firewood. Who's doing cleanup? If you drop them what condition are the grounds the be left in, etc? Hourly goes a long way to making that all work. And don't cheat yourself. Somewhere in the $35-$65/hr rate is acceptable.

Then you can present the owner with a bill, and use it to "buy" the logs YOU want to keep. You shouldn't have to pay saw-log prices for anything but the beat parts of the tree. Any logs from the upper story should be firewood, or removed from the site.....because they're not worth "anything"....even if any one of us would cut it on our mill in a heartbeat..... Just because you want the logs doesn't mean you should have to pay for them if your doing all the work, nor should you have to work for free......

If the land owner wants the limbs, etc gone....quote him a price for chipping or hauling away too...... Around here chippers are rented by the 8 hour day. I divide up the fee, tack on fuel and 20-30% to cover time renting & moving the chipper and then quote the chipper at an hourly rate combined with my own. If I'm lucky I get paid more to chip the wood....if not and the cost scares the landowner, then I'm out of having to do any cleanup.... Win/Win.....

Good Luck.

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Offline 4x4American

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Re: Standing Timber Bid
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2015, 06:57:22 pm »
Have you put any thought into insurance coverage?  How about a liability waiver?  Make sure you don't do anything before you make up a contract and specify everything you can think of.  Make sure you cover your ASSets.  Residual damage, property damage, clean up, how the money is paid, etc.  Think about what you'll do in the case of a breakdown.  Be prepared, don't forget to bring water, first aid kit, lunch, toiler paper, fuel, you know...all the bologna.
Boy, back in my day..

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: Standing Timber Bid
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2015, 06:14:31 am »
Stumpage prices = Log value less harvesting costs.  Your problem is you don't have any idea about the harvesting costs or the log value.  You do know what the ERC is worth to you.  But, what are you going to do with the hardwoods?  Will you sell the logs?  Sometimes logs have more value than the boards.  Veneer values can be quite high. 

What I don't know about this deal is your experience in cutting timber.  You have to be paid for your labor.  But, should you be paid more than the logger with experience and capital invested?  You also talk about using the owner's tractor.  What happens if there is a breakdown?   You want to use his land as a sawing site.  Does the landowner get compensated for the use of equipment and the site?  What about the slabs and sawdust?  How are you going to reclaim the site after your done? 

For my money, I would rather a logger be hired to do the cutting and skidding to a central landing.  You won't be able to do it any quicker or for less money.  And you can spend your time doing more productive things, like sawing.  Buy the logs you can use, sell the rest.

There's one other product you have going in this operation.  Your reputation.  If you get into a deal that doesn't turn out right, you will have to figure out how you're going to repair it. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Offline 4x4American

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Re: Standing Timber Bid
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2015, 08:12:57 pm »
I agree with Ron.
You can't beat a man at his own game.
Boy, back in my day..

Offline bigD

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Re: Standing Timber Bid
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2015, 08:24:13 am »
Thanks guys. I've been side tracked a few days here.  Reaffirming why I'm glad I'm done with the criminal/non-ethical corporate America. I met with the guy I'll just day I didn't walk away with a warm fuzzy.  He has a lot of very nice cedar (I'd say 300 to 500) but I got the feeling he was wanting me to do a lot of work for very litlle.  He said he could get Fred (who ever Fred is) that owns a sawmill to buy them for 450/Mbf.  I said well I'd cut them and take what I needed for 350/Mbf and he said "No!" Then he said if you want to cut 6x6's I'll keep one for every three? I asked what about the cut off and he said he didn't want it.  I'm also not very sure of how much word of mouth business he would bring me. He said he would call me, I'm not holding my breath.
Left my camera at home also so no pictures.

Offline hunz

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Re: Standing Timber Bid
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2015, 08:40:38 am »
I'd say this saying has been beat to death on this forum, but here goes: I never lost money on a job I didn't get. Sounds like this guy thinks he is sitting on diamonds and rubys and is proud enough to hold his ground. More power to him, but seems like a potential break even to me for you
Dream as if you'll saw forever; saw as if you'll die today.



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Offline Brucer

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Re: Standing Timber Bid
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2015, 06:12:58 pm »
Had a guy try to sell me a bunch of Western Larch "logs". I agreed to have a look (it hardly ever works out, but you never know).  I found his place, found a bunch of logging equipment, and a bunch of standing Larch. The guy showed up, I asked him where the logs were, and he pointed at a stand of trees. "Which ones would you want?"

I told him I bought logs, not trees, and I wouldn't know what I wanted until I saw them on the ground. He said he wasn't going to cut down any trees that I wasn't prepared to buy. I said "fine, no problem" and got back in my truck and drove off ;D.

Remember that phrase if you're a sawyer: "I buy logs, not trees."
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Offline Alligator

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Re: Standing Timber Bid
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2015, 06:45:49 pm »
My father always reminded me when bidding on timber. "If you win the bid do it for a profit, let the other guy lose money".
Esterer Sash Gang is a  Money Machine

Offline 4x4American

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Re: Standing Timber Bid
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2015, 07:14:05 pm »
Lots of good sayings ^
Boy, back in my day..

Offline rjwoelk

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Re: Standing Timber Bid
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2015, 07:32:03 pm »
Sounds like "Fred" can buy the logs.
I had the experience of a add for walnut trees, standing 50ft tall, 18 to 30 inch in dia, wanted $400.00 each. Turned out the measurment was circumference,  so I told him it was just firewood, he was very disappointed, he was 70 years old, planted them some 25 years ago, but hated them for all the nuts.
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Online Magicman

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Re: Standing Timber Bid
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2015, 08:10:46 pm »
It proves once again that just because something is for sale there is no reason to buy it.
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Offline JB Griffin

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Re: Standing Timber Bid
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2015, 08:59:38 pm »
 running-doggy    and don't look back, there's no money to be made there.

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Offline bigD

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Re: Standing Timber Bid
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2015, 09:05:40 am »
Thanks for all the wisdom and advice.  I've been consumed with doing some dozer work so haven't been on here latley.  I never heard from the guy again and I haven't called him. 
One thing that really turns  my stomach is not being honest and I think the thing with Fred was dishonesty.