Making T/G paneling from Red Pine

[ckjohnson99]

Long story; key points:

• Planning new log home in East Central Minnesota
• Hope to use 70 year old Red Pine from our property
• Plan to fell trees this winter and truck to log construction contractor site for peeling and drying
• I want to use the tops from the red pine logs for decorative T/G paneling
• I have a local guy with a portable ban saw mill that does good work
• Construction to start in the spring of 2016

Questions:

• When should I saw the tops into rough cut lumber for T/G use later? Immediately or let the logs dry for a year then saw?
• Rough sawed 1x6? What lengths?
• How should I store the rough cut lumber for drying?
• When should the rough cut lumber be milled? Right before construction starts?
• I also have some full grown Jack Pine; can they also be used for T/G paneling?
• Anything else I should know?

CJ

[logboy]

CJ,

I'm just over the border from you. Ive done what youre planning a few times for people. Your wood wont dry in log form, it will just serve as a food source for bugs and bacteria that will stain all your lumber an ugly blue and grey. The sooner you can get it cut, properly stacked, and drying, the better off you'll be all around. Get the stuff cut this winter or early spring and let it dry until construction starts. Its not possible to air dry your lumber too much, but it is possible to have lumber that is too wet for the end purpose. Your T&G stock needs to be good and dry before it is run through a moulder. Too wet and it wont work. Ask me how I know.

As far as your framing lumber, cut it to whatever your plans call for. Standard framing lumber for an 8' ceiling is 92-5/8, 9' ceiling is 104-5/8. Whatever you do, make sure all the widths and thicknesses are the exact same or you'll have some angry framers. I say this as a former framer in Minnesota. This needs to be dry as well. Use green (freshly sawn) lumber and seal it up inside the walls before it dries and you'll have a mold and fungus farm.

[pine]

First off welcome.

I don't see the reference to framing lumber but only to the T&G and it looks like you want 1x6's. Is that a finished 1x6?  The reason I ask is there will be some drying shrinkage but the T&G molding process will take a bit more and you might end up with something more like 5 " instead of 6". Food for thought.

Lengths would be a function of how you will fit them/design.  Are you doing a vertical, a horizontal or a diagonal T&G design, or a combination.  If vertical then the dimensions listed in post 2 are good if ceilings are for a normal home but since you say log I would suspect that many if not most of your ceilings will be a good bit higher.  I would also suspect that you do not want to have only vertical T&G paneling.  Longer lengths give the installers the best options with minimal end joints in the T&G boards but as I wrote it is a function of the design/look that you want.

I would saw the remaining logs into your 1x's as soon as possible after they are cut.  Do not wait for drying that, in log form. 
The logs for the house obviously will be left in log form, but I would get the bark off as soon as possible and stack them with the most amount of air flow that you can for optimal results.  It may sound odd to say sticker stack the logs but for any drying of them they need air flow as well.  Obviously those stickers will be much larger than those used for the 1x's.  It looks like you have that set up at the contractors log yard though so you will have little control on that.

If you can kiln dry the wood rather than just air dry you will be happier with the end result.  Not a lot of sawmillers offer kilns services but look to see if you can find one that will be able to help you.  The end product will be much nicer. Until it is fully dried you want to sticker stack it for air flow or mold, stain etc will occur.  If you can get it kiln dried, mill it as soon as reasonable out of the kiln. If kiln dried, be mindful of storage location post drying or the MC will go back up and you will find yourself with T&G with a higher content than you initially had.  If air dried only, I would wait as long as you can for the most drying before converting it to T&G.

As to the Jack pine can't answer as I have no experience with the species and the grain and do not know how it differs from red pine.  Hopefully someone with knowledge of it will chime in.  An option might be to have one room that is paneled with Jack pine T&G if the grains are not compatible with the Red pine.

Good luck sounds like fun

[red oaks lumber]

 i would saw your logs sooner than later, air dry your pine till early june then find someplace to k.d your material,usally places like mine can dry and do the machining of the lumber. i tell people to have the lumber sawed 1 1/8 " thick and for 6" go 6 1/4 " this allows for shrink and alittle blade wave.
the lenght to make ,you have less problems with 8' material,installs nice . jack pine makes awesome t&g wild grain alot of hidden knots which looks great, it generally acts like red pine with the one exception it will dry down quicker. my suggestion is dont try using your lumber if its only air dried, bad things will happen in our climate. you will not be happy

[logboy]

I read your initial post a bit too quickly and read 1 x 6 as 2 x 6, hence the info on framing. My bad. My coffee hadnt caught up yet.

[Bruno of NH]

As a builder and bandsaw mill owner. Have some one like Red Oaks Lumber dry and t&g your pine you will be much happier with the end product .
Jim /Bruno of NH

[BCsaw]

Ditto what Red Oaks said..........jack pine is fine for T & G!

Give your sawn lumber time to dry.

[DRB]

 

My brothers Hibbing cabin has Red pine flooring done by a small local guy, he thinks it is a bit soft but it looks good and would be nice wall material,  The walls are Tamarack in his cabin same small local mill made it and it really looks nice. 

  

These are some red pine on his land they are about 100 years old or so some are  over 24" DBH now with a few in the 30" + range. There are white pines as well and they are bigger. The land burned about 1906 so no tree is older then that. . 



 

Another shot of the cabin I know it is a mess but you can see the floor better here. It was my oldest sons reward for graduating from CWU a grouse hunting trip to MN


 

[Ianab]

I agree with the others.

Get the logs sawn ASAP and stack the board to air dry. Nothing good happens to pine logs if you leave them. They stain, bugs eat them, they crack etc. Once you get the boards dry down to below ~20% it's safe to store. Should air dry down to ~12%, but that's not quite dry enough for internal use in your climate.

But once you get it "air dry", it's safe to store long term in a barn or whatever.  Then get the final kiln drying and machining done just before you need it. Because the wood is air dry it will only need a couple of days in the kiln, then can be machined and installed.

Lengths? What's your building plans call for? If the walls are 8ft, then buck the logs to slightly more, or 16 ft so you get two lengths. Probably best not to go over that because it may make milling difficult, and not fit in a small kiln. If you have taller walls, then cut the logs to suit. 10ft lengths? Then make the logs 10ft 4".  Cutting them to 16ft wont get you two boards, and so a lot of waste.

Anyway, your plan can work, just a bit of planning to get it all to come together.

[FarmingSawyer]

The land burned about 1906 so no tree is older then that. . 

My Grandfather and his brother survived that fire by throwing themselves in the creek and covering themselves with mud. There were 3 or so fires which tore through there between 1890 and the late 1920's.

[barbender]

DRB, that cabin looks great. Your brother should have reversed the floor and walls and put the tamarack on the floor, it's way harder. A little late now : Actually, old growth red pine heartwood is fairly dense and not as soft as would be expected.
    Ckjohnson, these guys are giving you good advice. If you stack it to air dry, make sure and cover the stacks to keep them dry,  or you will get major sticker stains. You have to stack red pine somewhere it gets a lot of airflow, it will mold and stain quickly. You can't dry red pine too fast. Sawing it in the spring always seemed to work well for me, the first dry warm spell in april seems to knock the surface moisture content down before the muggy heat of summer comes, which seems to encourage mold growth. I have succesfully used air dried material in our home, but it was white pine. I also had it in the house for over a month prior to installation so it could acclimate. But for the most part, I would agree with the advice to kiln dry. It makes the material more stable, kills bugs, and importantly with red pine, sets the pitch.
     As for jack pine, it makes really nice looking paneling. If your looking for something different, let the jack pine sit in a pile a bit before sawing. It really gets some neat colors- blues, orange, yellow and red stain. It's more stable than red pine in my experience. If you don't like the stained look, it still has a distinctive appearance with more contrast between the growth rings and small knots interspersed.

[barbender]

Speaking of Jack pine, I thought you northern midwest guys might get a kick out of this- a 24" diameter jack pine, a bit of a rarity-

[ckjohnson99]

I've had this question posted for 24 hours, received a dozen replies, replies from less then a hundred miles away and the other side of the globe, all are helpful, and a warm welcome to boot. Is this a great country or what?

As soon as we get some bids in from general contractors, my financial director will give me the OK to have the trees felled. Since these trees are in tight formation and I'll need about 80 of them, Mr Husqvarna is going to give way to a local logger with a feller/buncher. I'll cut the logs to length for the cabin and set them aside then work with the tops and the Jack Pine for my t/g paneling. My plan is to have sawed immediately then stacked with stickers in my uncle's open lean-to shed. I'll cover with a tarp to keep the sky-rats from staining them. I'll let that sit until construction begins them have them kilned and milled.

BTW, one last question. I have a few red oaks that blew down last summer. I plan to have them sawed at the same time. Is there any reason I shouldn't stack them with the pine?

Thanks again!

A few of my red pine (that's the financial director standing under that smaller one)


 


  


 

[DeepWoods]

If you do cover the lumber with a tarp, make sure it does not cover any of the sides of the pile.  There would be a greater chance of mold or staining without air flow thru the entire pile.  I made that mistake with one of the first piles of lumber I sawed with my Norwood.  The top of the pile was blue stained, where the tarp covered the edges, but the rest dried OK.  Nothing wrong with denim pine if that's what you want, but I was using it for T&G for the ceiling in our log cabin, and I wanted it stain free. 

Oh yea, Welcome to the FF.

[Mooseherder]

I cut 14 Red Pine Trees down summer of 2013 for incoming Power lines to the property and parked them on pieces of pressure treated 2x4s I had laying around in gravel next to the Mill.  They were going to be the first things cut on the mill but that didn't happen summer of 2014 because other projects had to come first.  The Red Pine were water logged, stained and full of mold.  I cut half of them for campfire wood and gave some to my brother to burn in his garage stove.  The other half await my 2015 workation.
I was hoping to do what you're trying to do. My timing was horrible but there will be other victims. ;)

[Clark]

If you've got a decent acreage of red pine plantation (over 20 acres) and they need to be thinned, I would highly suggest giving Bell Pole and Timber a call. They pay top dollar for poles and it looks like you're reaching the size where poles are a possibility. Granted, this doesn't necessarily work towards cutting your own building material but it might still be possible.

barbender - That is one impressive jack pine. I can't recall the last time I saw one over 20".

Clark

[barbender]

Clark- I have about a cord of oversize (19" plus) jack pine sorted out on this job. You don't see that very often. I'm skidding north of Nashwauk, Mn and this area grows some really large jack pine and black spruce.
     
      ckjohnson, I'd second Clark's suggestion on contacting Bell Pole. If you had enough timber, you could get what you need cut, and sell the rest to maybe give you something to negotiate with the financial director ;)

[barbender]

Ck, I didn't see how much equipment you had listed that you have. Get your butt in there and cut those logs yourself ;D

[Doug Wis]

   Lots of good advice. I have done much of the inside of a new house With white pine and ash paneling . Walls and ceilings. All air dried. Installed vertical, horizontal and diagonally. Mostly v-joint but some rough w pine. Have done some with the same width bds and some with random width stuff. Like the look of the random width better. 3" to 8". talking with Steve of Red Oak Lumber, he says they straight line rip most everything before planing. I have run mine through a Logosol 360 with out doing that. Boards with a sight curve go through just fine, but when you try to put  them up its real hard to get a piece with a 1/2" curve from end to end to fit right. have wound up having to cut a lot  of boards and put up shorter pieces. Which really didn't look that bad. 45 angle on one end and a double 45 on the mating end and didn't worry about  joining on a stud. This the 2nd winter of the house being lived in and the air dry stuff really has been quit stable.

[Small Slick]

I did exactly what it is you want to do except I didn't use red pine for the logs on my cabin.   One thing to know:

Be really careful with red line that comes from a plantation. I had about 30-40% of my rough floor boards twist and warp so bad I couldn't use them. I ended up filleting them and making tongue and groove paneling with those boards.

I cut the trees in the winter milled them early spring and had a professional from the Forestry Forum process and dry the boards.  You will want to ask about and consider using plantation pine for you project.

John

[BCsaw]

barbender, nice Jackpine! I cut some about 20 years ago in NW Ontario around that size. We cut a 70 acre patch and 10 acres had this larger wood.

The board feet adds up quick.

[barbender]

     Ckjohnson, I was just paging through the summer 2014 issue of "Tree Farming for Better Forests". It had a story about an old sign, and a picture that looked just like the one you posted with your financial director ;D Neat story ;)

     BC, yep that is some nice Jack pine, I hear there is more of it up your way, though. We are on the edge of it's range. I like Jack pine lumber myself.

[red oaks lumber]

yellow jackpine makes better lumber than black jackpine.yellow has a little smoother bark .

[barbender]

    I never knew there was a difference, ROL- with jack pine I thought it was just "ugly" and "uglier" ;D

[Clark]

yellow jackpine makes better lumber than black jackpine.yellow has a little smoother bark .

Are you thinking of Scots pine? Jack pine has black bark, Scots pine has yellow bark. Otherwise I don't know what you mean between yellow and black jack pine.

I tend to agree barbender, ugly and uglier are good descriptions of 99% of the jack pine!

Clark