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advice on tj 450c tranny

Started by so il logger, January 14, 2015, 03:51:07 PM

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so il logger

hi everyone. Im new to the forum and looking for some advice. A few months back i got a 95 jack 450c grapple. I have been working bugs out of it since. The issue im dealing with at the moment is the tractor has to warm up 45 minutes before it will move. But if i operate winch after 15 minutes of warm up it will take right off. machine has new charge pump and sealing kit. And has 260 psi at charge pump. I really appreciate any advice and thank you in advance

coxy

welcome to the ff  where are you at    my be oil to thick or sticky oil port :-\ my cat takes a while to move but I have 30 weight in it its like roof tar on a day like today

so il logger

Thanks for the reply. Im located in southern Illinois. Today it is 25 deg. It does it even in the 40s. I am running hytrans that is Allison c4 certified. That's what the local dealer recommended. I am really thinking a sticking valve as well. Its strange how winching in a foot or so cable allows it to move

coxy

how is the filter    is there a line that maybe kinked  does the tranny have a screen in side    the cats have one on the bottom of the tranny under a tear drop cover  don't know any thing about them just throwing out ideas  :)     

so il logger

I replaced all the filters on the machine. it has a sump screen on bottom left of tranny I pulled it and cleaned/ inspected it. As far as lines they look ok. The charge pump growls until it gets warmed up but is carrying good psi. I drained all the oil from trans and replaced it with the recommended oil weight. after it warms up it pulls great. just seems that it must have something wrong with it by it having to run so long  ???

coxy

the charge pump should not make any noise un less there is a blockage some place  and by putting the winch in gear it may be bypassing it some how or it is making it build more pressure   I had a hydro pump push oil out of the vent and fill cap when it was cold  drove me nuts and found there was a line that was coming a part on the in side and was making to much pressure and making it foam up       when the oil was warm it was ok only when it was cold and the pump would make some strange noises till it got warm  maybe the charge pump is crap even if its new

so il logger

I thought maybe the pump was junk but shop said if its making that much psi its good. I also noticed that until it warms up it pushes fluid out of the winch control spool on front of winch and it is foamy. it has the t40 winch which I think is same as deere. I think I will like the machine if I ever get it where I can really use it. Guy that had it before just ran it he didn't maintain it like we would have.

treeslayer2003


so il logger

It has the clark hurth model # 13 7hr32420-6  It is 4 spd

treeslayer2003

hmm, never had a clark act that way........oldseabee could maybe help if he sees this.

North River Energy

Not familiar with that particular application, but if the pump is growling and foaming the oil, you might have an air leak/blockage on the suction side?

Also possible to have adequate pressure but marginal flow.

so il logger

any info is greatly appreciated. I cant find any exploded diagram of tranny on net. and its a new machine to me

kiko

The charge pump is sucking air.  The regulator is in between the charge pump and the torque convertor housing . There are gaskets and orings between each mating surface. This where you will likely find the suction leak as the pump must draw the suction through the regulator valve.  Also the regulator slides on the same studs as the pump if the regulator moved when the pump was replaced but not removed to check condition or replace the gasket towards housing you may want to check it out.  A suction leak will soon destroy the pump.

so il logger

The charge pump was recently replaced when i got the skidder. however the idiot that owned it before me didn't buy a sealing kit which is the gaskets and o rings that you reffered to. That being said I just bought the kit to re seal the pump and installed it. kit included 3 gaskets 5 o rings 3 springs and a steel clad rubber seal for pump drive shaft. No change other than boosted psi by 20 psi. Do you think pump is already shot? Thanks for all the help i appreciate it

so il logger

One more piece of info i forgot to mention. While the machine is warming up the gauge shows 260 psi. pump growls while cold but if i shift to fwd or rev the pump stops growling and psi drops out to nothing for approx 5 seconds. then growl comes back and psi shoots right back to 260. but still wont move until it gets really warm.  :-\

so il logger

Well im pretty confident that its sucking air. Now gotta find out where

kiko

If it is not around the trans pump or regulator, then it is internal piping.

so il logger

Is it common for internal piping to leak? I thought about pulling trans valve body tomoro and checking for stuck valve or broken spring. If i was to way overfill the trans i could troubleshoot the internal piping right?

so il logger

I am going to take pic of the 450 tomorrow and hopefully figure out how to post the pic on here.

CX3

As long as charge pump is around 260 and holds steady, I would run it.  My 380 was the same way.  It would take 20 minutes to charge, but it held good.  If you shut the machine off warm, then restarted soon, it would take even longer to charge.  They told me if the pressure held, it was good to go.  ????
John 3:16
You Better Believe It!

so il logger

Mine holds 260 but when I shift to fwd or rev the pressure drops to nothing for a few seconds then shoots back. Also the main hose from pump to filter pulsates and jumps around. ??? I have been talking to a real nice mechanic from over near you cx3

CX3

I wouldnt run it in that condition.  You will be replacing major tranny parts. 

Whos this mechanic
John 3:16
You Better Believe It!

so il logger

A guy name of greg at Ozark machinery out of west plains mo. The tractor pulls like a train after warming up. But I agree on not using it. Any other ideas???

CX3

Ozark machinery is a good place.  Thats all they do is work on forestry equipment. 

My old 380 would prime up to 260 then drop pressure to 0.  then do the same thing. etc.  until it finally took pressure and was fine all day every day.  It did a lot of the same things yours is doing, and when pressure came up it would work like a beast.  Its pulled at least 3 million feet for me with no problems and I sold it to a guy and hes pulled that much as well.  No problems.  But who knows it may blow tomorrow. 
John 3:16
You Better Believe It!

so il logger

this 450 gets to 260 psi soon as it starts. but still wont move until it warms the fluid. No mechanic that ive talked to has any explanation. CX3 in your opinion is it worth pulling the shift valve body and taking a look?

CX3

Id say there is probably some blockage in the plumbing somewhere.  Possibly a leak.  For sure a bear to get to.  Im the kind of person that if its broke, or breaking, Im fixing it.  The cost now is nill compared to a tranny replacement.  Go find some more of those great big slick waldo trees and jerk that pump
John 3:16
You Better Believe It!

so il logger


kiko

A pressure side leak would just cause a leak, no airation .  I would pull the pump and the regulator and make sure something is not amiss in there. Some trash could have fallen between one of those sections and and not allowed it to seal, if the paper gaskets were used one could have torn.  Pulling the control valve would be a waste of time IMO.  Trans fluid should be checked with the machine running.  The winch uses the same oil as the trans .  There is a hose that drains the winch that connects  at the trans right where the fill tube hooks up, make sure it's not crimped holding all the trans fluid in the winch.  The screen you checked on the bottom of trans slides over the internal suction pipe. Also you might want to disconnect the declutch to make sure it is not holding residual pressure,  holding the transmission in neutral. You will find the declutch hose on top of the trans control valve and is between where the cables connect to the spools.  You will need a 4 jic plug for this line. However this would not cause the pump growl.

so il logger

I will pull the charge pump again. the paper gasket was new it is the one between regulator and torque housing. the other 2 gaskets were steel. The reason I considered pulling control valve body is the rear spool seal leaks when shifted from fwd to rev if the declutch isn't depressed. If I use the declutch it don't leak. The seals are new I just installed them but still leaks foamy oil. ??? Gotta say this thing is aggravating. I hope the skidder is worth all the headache its caused. :(

central pa

At least we're not the only one that bought a used but not maintained machine our 450 A acts about the same so I'm also glad for all the helpful fellows on here hope you get it fixed without to trouble

Polish Hammer

Why was the charge pump replaced in the first place?  what weight of oil are you using? Hytrans . I have a 450b and I run dextron atf all year and I can start my machine in -25 Celsius and it would move right away. You need to confirm that you have the right amount of oil in the trans also. Check when it's warm ( min of 150f )  and you pulled your first hitch. It has to be in neutral and idling around 600 rpm. Make sure it is at the full mark. I have all the service info and drawing for this machine let me know if you need and specific info.
Cat 322c fmhw with waratah 622, Komatsu PC200-7 FM with waratah 622b, Timberjack 450b grapple, timberjack 660c grapple, Tigercat 630c grapple, John Deere 853j Buncher, echo saws

so il logger

Hi pollish hammer. About the charge pump I have no idea what it was doing for the guy I got it from to change it. But I had it off last week to replace the gaskets and o rings trying to fix the problem. I am running hytrans that meets the criteria that the mechanic called for. It is Allison c4 compliant. I am borrowing a book from a friend in the a.m. Maybe I can figure something out by reading the book?

Polish Hammer

Allison compliant is fine but it needs to meet your operating conditions. Cold weather needs cold weather grades of oil. Dextron is also Allison compliant. Was the pump you put on new or used ? This seems like a wrong oil application to me. When it's warm it works fine, as in the oils flow easily. Before start up pull the dipstick and see how thick the oil is. if  sticky then it's too thick. Then warm the machine up to operating temps and check the level. Let is know
Cat 322c fmhw with waratah 622, Komatsu PC200-7 FM with waratah 622b, Timberjack 450b grapple, timberjack 660c grapple, Tigercat 630c grapple, John Deere 853j Buncher, echo saws

so il logger

He said it was a new pump and it looks new. The oil is a little thick when cold but its not real cold here. Everyone else round here with a 450 runs the oil im running. Im pretty much stumped on it. With the deere winch I hate to change fluid over to atf.

so il logger

You have  good looking 450B polish hammer by the way. Hope I can get pics on here tomorrow of this green turd ;D

treeslayer2003

Quote from: so il logger on January 19, 2015, 01:38:40 AM
You have  good looking 450B polish hammer by the way. Hope I can get pics on here tomorrow of this green turd ;D
were the pic? by the way, the older clarks run ATF........tho hytran may be fine. out of curiosity, id love to see a pic of your converter and trans.

Big Rooster

Hey just letting you know my 1995 450C does the exact same thing.  I guess the one thing you did not say was whether yours still acts like this during warm weather.

Basically if it is 20 degrees out it will probably take 20 minutes to build pressure.  If it is zero out it takes about 40 minutes.  And it doesn't really build pressure but rather it finally just shoots up to full pressure and is ready to roll.  We run it day in and day out and it always has done that so I never thought anything was weird.  Below zero we don't start them as they are cold blooded beasts.  We also run JD Hygard in them and check fluid levels when hot and running.  We are really good about letting stuff warm up a long time on cold days anyhow so another 10-15 minutes never bothered us and certainly did not hurt the machine.

If it is 30 degrees or above it is ready to roll as soon as you start the engine up.

I am going to try running the winch as was said and see what that does.  It is a grapple machine so the winch is not used to much.

Just trying to let you know that maybe all these machines do this before you go troubleshooting to much.

Polish Hammer

Cat 322c fmhw with waratah 622, Komatsu PC200-7 FM with waratah 622b, Timberjack 450b grapple, timberjack 660c grapple, Tigercat 630c grapple, John Deere 853j Buncher, echo saws

so il logger


coxy

can you send some of that sun my way :D :D

so il logger

Oh im happy to have the sun as well... was pretty nice here today. Warm enough that my 450 took right off moving. But still bad noisy pump, pulsating pressure line and foamy oil leaking. Got a service book but haven't learned much

treeslayer2003


treeslayer2003

Quote from: so il logger on January 19, 2015, 04:30:55 PM


  

 
so logger, your converter is divorced from the trans and connected by a short drive shaft? if so this is how the old clarks are........as such, you can eliminate trans problem if the shaft is not turning. i would say it is not if your charge pressure is not up.
some one else stated this only happens to them when its really cold, does your act ok when its warm? if so i would consider changing to ATF.
i believe you said the previous owner changed the pump........do you think its worth pulling it and having it tested at a hydro shop? who really knows what some one else has really done.

Polish Hammer

Cat 322c fmhw with waratah 622, Komatsu PC200-7 FM with waratah 622b, Timberjack 450b grapple, timberjack 660c grapple, Tigercat 630c grapple, John Deere 853j Buncher, echo saws

so il logger

Nah treeslayer unfortunately its all bolted together on this one. The winch shaft turns slow and gets faster the warmer it gets. I think I will pull charge again tomorrow. Just had it off last week. If it wasn't for the noise of pump and pushing foamy oil out of the shift spool seals id probably just run it. But the (just run it theory) has bit me in the backside before. Surely this has happened before as far as all the symptoms? Yeah polish hammer if I cant get it lined out it may go down the road. Need something pulling wood ;D

so il logger

Oh and thanks for the compliment. It looks better clean. just brought it in from a swamp hole. Didn't get to pull much with it cause it got cold and been too cold to wash it

so il logger

Well guy's the charge pump checks out good. Any other idea's before I do a major teardown? I need to be makin money with this old girl. Any ideas are greatly appreciated Im willing to try about anything at this point. Thanks in advance

coxy

if it was me id start with hydro lines going to and from the tranny and or c pump there is a blocked line or a line with pin hole letting it suck air (BUT NOT LEACKING  OUT  ???) that's what I had trouble with on a hydro pump for the steering and blade   I did one line at a time till I found the right one   only had 2 more to go and all new lines  it was a pain in the    or get a new c pump I know you say its good but you never know maybe a internal crack in the casting who knows     good luck and keep us up to date

so il logger

Thanks coxy. Ill start replacing hoses, theres hoses going to and from the filter, and to and from the cooler. I had pump tested at a hydro shop they seem to think its 100%

Big Rooster

Hey So Il

I had mentioned in a previous post that my 450c does the exact same thing, and always has.  After seeing this problem on the forum and then talking to another local logger with the same problem.  Everybody has a solution pump, regulator, cracked suction, hyd lines, air leak, o-ring and gasket replacement, clogged breather etc.   

Well I mentioned this to our local shop that deals with TJ and they suggested before bringing it in to trouble shoot why don't I just drain the oil (JD hygard AW 67) and replace it with low viscosity hygard AW-32 (which I did not even know they made) I also checked the suction screen.

What do you know after 4 years of showing no pressure for 15-30 minutes on cold days I started it up with the low vis and the pressure came up on the tranny in tandem with the engine oil pressure.

I'm not saying this is everyones problem but it seems to have solved mine.  It has not been in the single digits this week but if it keeps showing pressure when it gets down to 5 degrees I will call it solved.


so il logger

Yeah thats whats confusing me. My charge pressure gauge raises in tandem with my eng oil gauge. Right up to 260 psi right off the bat soon as it's started. But still wont move til warmed up 45 minutes when cold. And pump is noisy like its sucking air.

Big Rooster

Oh I thought you showed no pressure the whole time.  My pump also always makes noise on cold days.  It wouldn't hurt to throw that light weight oil in and see what happens.

ga jones

My 380 takes a while to get pressure when its cold also. Takes about 5 minutes. I assumed it was a weak charge pump. I have ATF in mine. Once it's warmed up its fine all day.gearmatic winch. There's 12,000 hours on it.it drops pressure when selecting gears also. Thought that was normal.
380c timberjack c4 treefarmer international trucks jonsered saws. Sugi hara bars d31 komatsu 350 tj grapple

so il logger

Mine has the T40 winch it looks to be really similiar as a deere winch if not exact same. Im going to change the hoses next and try that. I just changed the fluid to the fluid the mechanic recommended so I hate to change it again until I eliminate the hoses. My dad had a 92 tree farmer c6e that used ATF and we never had a issue one with this type of problem. But will it be ok to use the ATF with this winch?

Firewoodjoe

I don't know if it's that same style as a 380 but the 380 would act like that when the fiber gear is going bad.

so il logger

Would it work fine after warming up? Only fiber gear problem iv'e seen was total failure and happened pulling up a steep hill

treeslayer2003

if the gear slips, it will be gone inside a day.

so il logger

So a no go on that one TREESLAYER? ;D

treeslayer2003

if you been useing it no.......think about it, there is no room for it to slip until the teeth are about gone. the converter could be shot but i doubt it. i'm not sure what you have goin on there..........

so il logger

It's a mystery  :D I haven't been using it because of how it's acting but may just run it and maybe the problem will show it'self. Or cost me another 5k  :(

coxy

this is my saying on things like this that I cant figure out RUN IT TILL IT SOUNDS EXPENSIVE  :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Firewoodjoe

My boss had a 380. Got so bad you'd have to pull it with another skidder in the morning. Then would pull all day. We're talking a 100 cord a day operation. Tore it down put a fiber gear in and was good till the next time. Now the trany or something in it must have been shot do to useing fiber gears and I'm not saying that's your problem. But it's odd you have pressure. A bad pump would not make good pressure I would think. I wish you luck and I hope you don't spend a arm and a leg. Trannys are the big money in a skidder.

so il logger

Yeah I've been quoted anywhere from 6 to 10k just to pull the tranny and re-seal it. I'm thinking it's going to have to make me some $$ before I go that route.

Polish Hammer

Put light weight winter oil like atf in it change the filter again and see what happens. It's your least expensive option.
Cat 322c fmhw with waratah 622, Komatsu PC200-7 FM with waratah 622b, Timberjack 450b grapple, timberjack 660c grapple, Tigercat 630c grapple, John Deere 853j Buncher, echo saws

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