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Plumbing freeze protection

Started by Ljohnsaw, January 04, 2015, 03:01:03 AM

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Ljohnsaw

Not sure where to place this, so please move it if needed.

In the not to distant future, I will have a cabin in the woods.  Right now, I have full "bath house" to use during construction.  What do you all do for freeze protection in an unheated structure during the winter?  Obviously, drain the water lines, but how about the drains/traps?  My neighbors typically put a little RV antifreeze into each drain and perhaps in the little bit of water left in the toilet tank.

I suppose, since the RV antifreeze is safe to put in your RVs water lines, it shouldn't mess up my septic system.  But it is a bit pricey.  I was wondering about some more "natural" options.  First that comes to mind is rock salt.  In the toilet, it shouldn't be a problem since its all porcelain, but might mess up the septic?  For the sinks, I've seen rubber P traps - that might do the trick.  What do you think about putting a foam stick (pool noodle stuff) into the drains giving the ice something to compress (and absorb the stress)?  Could even stick it down the toilet but that would have an ick factor :D  Could blow the drains out but then there is issues with sewer gas ::)

Thoughts and solutions?
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

goose63

Do you have year round electricity if so a heat tape will work. over here its a lot colder than you my water pipes have heat tapes you tape them to the pipe wrap a thin layer of insulation around it plug it in pipes wont freeze up
goose
if you find your self in a deep hole stop digging
saw logs all day what do you get lots of lumber and a day older
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scgargoyle

I use RV antifreeze in the barn. It's not all that expensive, considering the alternative. A porcelain toilet will crack if it freezes with water in it. I wouldn't put rock salt in my septic system.
I hope my ship comes in before the dock rots!

Magicman

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thecfarm

I have no idea how much RV anti freeze there is,but I have seen it on sale here in Maine for $3.99. I have never winterize a home,camp,but I would think 3 gallons would do it??? I guess you could take your traps apart each year. Just plan ahead for the take apart when you are installing the bathroom.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Chuck White

If you had compressed air, you could blow out your sink traps, however the toilet would be a bigger obstacle!
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

Stephen1

I typically use less than half a gallon for 2 sink traps and my toilet, tank and bowl. You just need enough to stop it from freezing solid. I have gone up in the really cold and the toilet bowl will be slushy with the antifreeze. The traps under sinks have room for expansion as they are open on both ends for the ice to expand, where the water comes in and where the water goes out. I have been doing this for over 30 years, and my dad before me. We are in central Ontario and will see temps of minus 30. Good luck.
IDRY Vacum Kiln, LT40HDWide, BMS250 sharpener/setter 742b Bobcat, TCM forklift, Sthil 026,038, 461. 1952 TEA Fergusan Tractor

beenthere

With just your hand, you can flip the water out of the toilet trap pretty easily and quickly.

Of course, flush it a few times before doing that.  ;D
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Ljohnsaw

Thanks for the responses:

Goose63: I'm off-grid and will be doing solar only to power LEDs (12v) so heat tape is not an option unless I build a MONSTER battery bank to run the strips  :D

I neglected to mention, we will need to "winterize" 5 to 10 times each winter.  We will go up on weekends and long school breaks (Thanksgiving, Christmas/winter break, Easter/spring break) whenever there is snow to play or we want to "get away".  The potential for re-freeze is likely when we leave.  Hence the desire to make it cost-effective.

Stephen1: As far as sink P-traps, are you saying you don't put antifreeze in them and don't have a problem?

Chuck White: I think swift uses of a plunger would do well in both the sink and toilet getting rid of most of the water.  That would require less anti-freeze if nothing else.

Beenthere: Toilet humor is inevitable - thanks! ;D

I'll have to look again at the RV anti-freeze - I'm down in the flatlands where we don't freeze so IIRC, the price was a bit high as it is "rare" here.  Next time I'm up in the mountains, I'll check the prices up there.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

terrifictimbersllc

It isn't that hard to take a toilet off the floor and dump out the water. But antifreeze would be easier.
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

Ljohnsaw

Quote from: terrifictimbersllc on January 04, 2015, 02:18:36 PM
It isn't that hard to take a toilet off the floor and dump out the water. But antifreeze would be easier.

True, but I wouldn't want to be doing that multiple times a year. :o

When I was a kid (in the '60s), we would go up to the mountains (Big Bear Lake) in the summer.  They had a toilet that I would say is what I would expect for a boat.  It had a flap/foot valve in the bottom of the bowl.  The toilet was sealed, you turned a knob (like a drinking fountain) that would fill the bowl.  When done, you would step on a peddle that would open the bottom of the bowl and everything would drop.  There was no water trap and the bowl would be dry between uses.

Anyone ever see one of these for sale anywhere?  I don't even know what to call it so I could search for it.  I think this would be the perfect solution for me.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

clearcut

Composting toilet?

You can buy a lot of anti-freeze for that kind of money though.

Home Depot sells the Dow brand for about $5.00/gallon You can buy online and pick up at a store on your way.

The problem with emptying the p-traps is that septic tank gasses will flow into the living space while you are gone. Having a spare p-trap or 2 on hand is relatively cheap.
Carbon sequestered upon request.

Holmes

Anti freeze is the way to go.  No matter what you will never get all the water out.  The antifreeze actually makes the freezing product shrink instead of expanding.  If you could take a faucet apart and pour some in the pipes that would also help.  I usually pump some thru the water lines to guarantee they don't freeze and break.
Think like a farmer.

thecfarm

I would have a pipe above the faucet with a upside down spout and just pour the anti freeze into it. Turn the water off,open the faucet and have a drain,let all the water out,I would have another shut off right below the faucet and turn that one off and than turn on the upside down one and pour it in. I hope this makes some sense.  In doing this 5-6-7-8 times a year,you want to make it simple,so that it does not take 2 hours to do it.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

jwilly3879

I have a seasonal home that I maintain with 2 bathrooms  and kitchen. The plumbing is setup to drain by opening 2 valves and the drain on the water heater. It takes 2 gallons of RV antifreeze to do the drains. $3.99 a gallon. You just need to use enough to fill the traps. The former owner used regular AF and never drained the traps, 2 cups in the toilet and 1/2 a cup in every trap. Not sure how good this was for the septic system.

snowstorm

a place it will freeze that many dont think of. the shower head. or between the valve and the head

pineywoods

ljohnsaw, what you are describing is very common. Look in any rv/camper. The toilet will have a blade type valve in the bottom, no p-trap and a valve to add water before use...
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
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Ljohnsaw

Spare P-Traps - Check
RV Anti-freeze - Check
Drain shower head - Check
Drain tankless water heater - Check (tankless, but still holds a little water that needs to be drained)

Fill pipes with anti-freeze - probably not.  TheCFarm - I get your idea but have another plan:

I will have a single low point for each hot and cold water.  Turn off pump, open all valves upstairs, open drains downstairs and there should be no water left in the lines.  I will install everything with a slope toward the drain valves.

Thanks again, all!
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Stephen1

I do put antifreeze in the P traps, but not much. My shower is a combo in the bath tub, so we are able to drain shower head line by allowing water to drain back into the tub faucet. If installing a new shower I would always make sure to have the toe tester faucet addition to the shower, always good to fill a bucket with hot water for washing the floor.
If this is a new installation you are planning, use pex, as few connectors or elbows as possible. Use a manifold and make everything a straight run from the manifold, a manifold is easy to drain, and any water left in any sags in the pex will freeze but not burst the lines. Copper splits real easy, especially elbows, that come from China. i know :)
I have a heated ABS line to the lake that freezes solid when I am not there. I turn on the heat and bingo thawed in 1 hour and I have running water.
IDRY Vacum Kiln, LT40HDWide, BMS250 sharpener/setter 742b Bobcat, TCM forklift, Sthil 026,038, 461. 1952 TEA Fergusan Tractor

Mad Professor

A siphon will work on the traps and toilet.  You can get cheap ones from most automotive stores

cbla

for the camp I drain the lines and use a little Plumbers Anti-freeze, never had a issue yet. it is 3.99 for a gallon here.

johnjbc

I have an old trailer that we use for a camp until get some thing better built. When I do I plan to put a warm room in the basement that will stay above freezing with little or no heat. Will probably transplant the bathroom, and kitchen, from the trailer, Along with space for a washer, dryer, and well pressure tank, to the warm area. Should take an area of about 12 x 20.

The up stairs of the cabin will be laid out so that all of the bathroom and kitchen factures are above the warm room. All drains will be extended to traps in the warn room. And all of the water supply lines will be sloped to manifolds near the pressure tank and hot water tank.

From the time we shut the water off until mid April we don't
use the camp much due to all the hassles with the water and food storage. Below is the instructions I wrote on how to winterize the camp and it takes 2 or 3 hours.

Instructions for winterizing the trailer.

1.   Turn off the pump circuit breaker. Note it's the only 220 breaker.

2.   Take the well cover off and open the valve that drains the pressure tank. Put the cover back on leaving the valve open.

3.   Open the kitchen faucet to allow the pressure tank to partly drain while you hook up the air compressor to the outside faucet and turn it on. Note there is a shutoff inside you may need to open, that turns off the outside faucet when it's cold so it won't  freeze.

4.   Close the valve on the water line coming into the trailer.

5.   Open the drain valve that goes through the floor by the water heater, and the water heater drain valve. Note the air pressure should now force the water out of the hot water tank.

6.   After the hot water tank is empty close the drain valve that goes through the floor by the water heater. Note air pressure should build up in the water pipes.

7.   Flush the toilet a couple times till air comes in the flush tank. Then close the valve that feeds the flush tank. It's in the closet in the bedroom behind the tank.

8.   At this point you are ready to drain the pipes. Open the following valves 1 at a time till no more water comes out. Start at the Bathroom end and you will have to do them several times
9.   -1- Flush tank fill valve -2-  Drain under the bathroom sink -3-  Sink hot -4- sink cold -5- shower hot -6- shower cold -7- kitchen hot -8- kitchen cold -9- hot water tank drain -10-  drain under sink -11- water supply shutoff valve.

10.   Disconnect the air compressor.



11.   Remove the kitchen drain trap and put a plastic bucket under it in case someone uses the sink.

12.   Get a plastic bucket and the Harbor Freight pump out of the closet. And pump as much water as you can out of the toilet bowel and tank.

13.   Put RV antifreeze in the toilet bowel and tank.

14.   Put RV antifreeze in the bathroom sink trap.

15.   Open all the valves and leave them open for the winter.

16.   Pack all of the canned goods or other things that will freeze.

17.   Clean out the refrigerator.

18.   Unplug the furnace burner inside the front door of the furnace


LT40HDG24, Case VAC, Kubota L48, Case 580B, Cat 977H, Bobcat 773

r.man

I drain about 20 systems a year that are subjected to -30 temps. Put lots of slope in your pipes and plan well. If you have a shop vac use it to remove the last of the water from the toilet tank and bowl to minimize RV antifreeze use. A normal toilet uses the most antifreeze in a building. If you have a pump put in valves instead of plugs at all points that will need to be opened and closed. Plugs eventually strip. You can drain traps if you would rather save the antifreeze but you probably need to close off the sink with its plug and put something over or in the overflow hole to stop sewer gases. I say probably because I have talked to people who drain without blocking and they claim to not have had an odour problem. Guess it depends on the individual system. If you have a shower make sure the vertical shower head pipe gets drained. If in doubt put valve handles at halfway position.
Life is too short or my list is too long, not sure which. Dec 2014

johnjbc

Good idea to use the shop vac. Why didn't think of that. That would be a lot easier than the Harbor freight hand pump.
Haven't had any smell at all. Could that be because    doesn't stink Or because our septic tank is hooked into a siphon tank that empties into a sand mound 30 ft down the hill?
LT40HDG24, Case VAC, Kubota L48, Case 580B, Cat 977H, Bobcat 773

JohnG28

We winterize our camp in the Adirondacks every winter.  Blow out all the water supply lines a little with compressed air and/or shop vac.  We also use RV antifreeze in all the drains/traps.  It even turns to slush when it's -0F for a while sometimes.
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