hard starting skidder, 353 detroit

xalexjx · January 02, 2015, 07:15:31 PM

been cutting on a new wood lot, normally 15 deg+ i through a set of jumper cables and a little shot of either it fires and starts 2-3 spin. Went to start it the other morning 25 deg out and nothing, 2 hours later with a salamander and batt charger got it going, but it seems its starting harder even after up to running temp? Thinking it may need a new set of injectors at some point, did add some atf to the fuel to see if that helps the injectors. Any other thoughts? This lot has some wood that is worthy of posting pics just to bad its almost a 1/2 mile skid :new_year:

snowstorm · January 02, 2015, 07:27:20 PM

start with load testing the batteries look over all the cables how long has it been since the starter was rebuilt? if it has enought cranking speed then look elsewhere like low compression

tantoy · January 02, 2015, 08:45:28 PM

Quote from: snowstorm on January 02, 2015, 07:27:20 PM
start with load testing the batteries look over all the cables how long has it been since the starter was rebuilt? if it has enought cranking speed then look elsewhere like low compression

Agreed, Good healthy battery cables and solid battery first. Probably not the problem but there is no room to waste energy on bad electrical connections.

treeslayer2003 · January 02, 2015, 09:59:02 PM

pay some one that knows what they are doing to adjust the rack and governor. it will be the best money you ever spent on it. detroit should start if it turns over.

Ken · January 03, 2015, 04:42:49 AM

I've been around Detroits a long time and they should start without assistance to around -15 or -20C (0 F). A small shot of ether would be the exception. As has been said new batteries and rebuilt starter will go a long way.

xalexjx · January 03, 2015, 06:01:42 AM

batteries are good and starter was rebuilt about 2 months ago. It turns over plenty fast.

David-L · January 03, 2015, 06:36:09 AM

Are you sure you are getting enough fuel, has the motor been eithered alot in it's past which can wash the cylinder walls and eventually create low compression. Pull a fuel can to see if its full, could be a fuel restriction. Getting the rack and gov adjusted will help no matter what. How many hrs on the motor, never changed the fuel pump on any of mine but couldn't that be an issue. Once started how does it run, skipping,etc. I have a block heater on mine an it is a great help, 20 to 30 minutes and its starting if the batterys are up to snuff.Good luck, my next job has nice Oak but a long skid (1/2) mile plus and it's a contract job by the bd/ft and its hilly,The cord wood is cheap and mine and it's next to my house with a 5 minute commute. The cordwood will offset the low bd/ft pay (I hope).

OntarioAl · January 03, 2015, 09:06:13 AM

xalexjx
Check your fuel shutoff on the governor it may not be resetting all the way after each time you stop the motor.
hope this helps
Al

Woodboogah · January 03, 2015, 01:46:13 PM

Ontario AL that is the problem I had. The cable kinked just enough to look the the handle was pushed all the way in. But on the other end it wasnt going all the back where it should be. Wouldnt have found it all alone. Something so simple caused some major headaches!

xalexjx · January 04, 2015, 07:10:42 AM

It seems like it getting too much fuel on initial start. Like and injector is leaking by or something, I have about 600 hrs on it since full top end rebuild about 3 years ago. Run fine once I get it going but it smokes alot at idle (white ish gray smoke)

some real nice stuff on this lot and lots of firewood/pulpwood

chester_tree _farmah · January 04, 2015, 08:04:24 AM

Cool pics!

North River Energy · January 04, 2015, 08:44:32 AM

Sounds a bit like poor injector spray pattern. My IH TD6 starts with similar stack emissions. Usually kicks over on two, then 3, then all four within maybe 30 seconds, depending on temperature.

Was cranking slowly this past summer (with new battery) until all electrical connections were cleaned, then it spun over not quite like new.

thecfarm · January 04, 2015, 10:27:09 AM

Looks like quite a hitch behind it.

xalexjx · January 04, 2015, 09:17:14 PM

ya with a 1/2 mile skid gotta make em count with the big stuff i only hook 4-5 with the small stuff i'm usually filling all 6 chokers and doubling up a few. Nice now with all the cold weather have everything froze in pretty good with a good skid trail. Talked to a few guys over the weekend that know detroits pretty well and they said put some new injectors in and try it.

dgdrls · January 05, 2015, 08:38:10 PM

xalexjx,

Get a Detroit manual for that 353 if your handy with the wrench's, they are available for less than a $20 spot
If you call in a mechanic to adjust the fuel rack and governor ask him (or you can) to pull the valve cover and ID the injectors.
I understand the older style S injectors will act just like you said in cold weather, white smoke, hard to start.
The N series injectors perform better and are available from a few sources for less than $50 with a $25 core.

Nice turns you made, Upstate really starts at the Bronx/Yonkers line :D where are you pulling those loads if I may??

Best
DGDrls

treeslayer2003 · January 05, 2015, 10:21:59 PM

Quote from: dgdrls on January 05, 2015, 08:38:10 PM
xalexjx,

Get a Detroit manual for that 353 if your handy with the wrench's, they are available for less than a $20 spot
If you call in a mechanic to adjust the fuel rack and governor ask him (or you can) to pull the valve cover and ID the injectors.
I understand the older style S injectors will act just like you said in cold weather, white smoke, hard to start.
The N series injectors perform better and are available from a few sources for less than $50 with a $25 core.

Nice turns you made, Upstate really starts at the Bronx/Yonkers line :D where are you pulling those loads if I may??

Best
DGDrls

the valve cover must be removed to adjust the rack

dgdrls · January 06, 2015, 05:43:52 AM

[/quote]the valve cover must be removed to adjust the rack
[/quote]

thank-you ts2003, didn't realize it was part of the required service.
Its been years since I tinkered with a diesel and even then my
experience was very limited.

Learned a new nugget.

DGDrls

xalexjx · January 06, 2015, 08:34:51 AM

middle of the adirondacks, it has the n-50 injectors, new injectors are on order will be putting them in by end of the week hopefully.

treeslayer2003 · January 06, 2015, 03:56:07 PM

n 45 would be normal in most applications. you should still have it tuned/set after they are in.

xalexjx · January 25, 2015, 08:18:32 PM

finally an update, been fighting to keep it running (put new injectors in a week ago made no difference) and adjusted all the valves, everything was very, very close to factory spec. Called a nearby mechanic who has lots of experience and he suspected the key way on the timing was broke or a gear broke or is missing teeth, I hired him to come up and look at it and he was right on the money, now to get it loaded on low boy and move it to the garage, have to pull the engine to get to them. Considered doing a top end rebuild while its out but think im just going to fix what need to be fixed and run it.

xalexjx · January 26, 2015, 06:33:21 AM

been thinking (prolly a bad thing) anyone have any info or pictures of 4bt swap? Been thinking about upgrading skidder for a while now, thinking it be better off keeping this one and putting a cummins in it (much quieter), plus iv rebuilt almost everything else in it frame wise.

jwilly3879 · January 26, 2015, 12:18:30 PM

We had one of the bolts on the blower drive gears come out and go through the timing gears. We did a complete rebuild and new blower. Works great now. Loctite all the bolts on the gears.

xalexjx · January 27, 2015, 08:20:20 PM

well motor is pulled and tore down, it was not the timing, im assuming its needs a top end rebuild, john where did you guys get your parts? I was planning on having keith rebuild mine also, assuming he has time to do it

coxy · January 27, 2015, 09:24:53 PM

you ripped the whole motor apart and dident find any thing wrong

coxy · January 27, 2015, 09:29:52 PM

Quote from: jwilly3879 on January 26, 2015, 12:18:30 PM
We had one of the bolts on the blower drive gears come out and go through the timing gears. We did a complete rebuild and new blower. Works great now. Loctite all the bolts on the gears.

a friend had one run away with its self them things will scream for a long time till they make a big bang they pretty much self destroy junk pile they go :D :D

xalexjx · January 28, 2015, 09:41:05 PM

yep motor is mostly apart not tore down yet, wouldnt fire on a wif of either so i was convinced it was a timing issue but i ran it last weekend and it had power loss for the first time and seemed as it was only running on 2cyl's. Ill know when i can get back to garage to tear it down and inspect rings pistons and cyl's. Was hoping to have someone come in and rebuild it so i wouldnt have to be bothered but everyone's at least two weeks+ out. Did find a low hour 460 im going to look at sat though. ;)

John Woodworth · January 28, 2015, 10:43:19 PM

The biggest complaint with starting most diesels can be traced back to the use of either, it knocks the top edges off of the compression rings, wether you or those before you, a motor gets addicted to either if that's the problem. What weight motor oil, being that cold drop your visc. Rating , oil is oil wether it's 10 degrees or 80 can 't expect it to start with too heavy a oil for the weather conditions, battery's up, starter good then start looking at your oil.

David-L · January 29, 2015, 06:44:01 AM

For those of us in the cold getting these Detroits running, 1/2 hr on a block heater with your portable gen set and no either needed. Yesterday was 6 degrees and 30 minutes and it fired up. Doesn't take much. cup of coffee and get the gear out and 10 minutes of warm up and your working.

Stephen Alford · January 29, 2015, 07:53:53 AM

I do the same as David L. With all the temperature spikes the generator supplies power for a heatgun ,when the started sticks or switch cables freeze, plus a power source for a 10 amp battery charger. The down side to the generator was loading and unloading it. Have a plastic barrel that I set it on so you can avoid the lift from the ground.

Polish Hammer · January 29, 2015, 09:54:22 AM

My 240 did this when I first got it. Ran great for a week then out fuel in it, then ran like crap then wouldn't start. Pulled the one way valve on the fuel line that feeds the filter. It has a fine mess screen in it that was full of rust from the tank. It restricted the fuel flow to next to nothing. Cleaned the screen and installed back to like new. The fix was about 10 min.