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Is Ether A Bad Thing?

Started by gfadvm, December 31, 2014, 09:17:22 PM

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gfadvm

I have an OLD International Diesel Tractor (464) that I use around the mill to move logs with a 3 point boom I made. It does not have glow plugs or any type of block heater. It starts like a dream until the temerature gets in the 20s, then no go.  I have been told that starting fluid is very hard on diesels but lots of my friends use it. I need some input from those with experience.ill I damage it using ether in cold weather?

Thanks in advance!

POSTON WIDEHEAD

I have heard to much of it will damage the engine also.....and it will. In fact a diesel engine will start to rely on it after a while.

There are ways to install a plug in heater on a diesel engine but I'm no mechanic. I'll bet someone on here will know.

Good post!  :)
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

NWP

I put a block heater inline in the lower radiator hose on my processor. Works great. You can get them for $20-30 from the auto parts store. Just measure and cut out a section of the hose and clamp the heater in.
1999 Blockbuster 2222, 1997 Duratech HD10, 2021 Kubota SVL97-2, 2011 Case SV250, 2000 Case 1845C, 2004 Case 621D, John Deere 540A, 2011 Freightliner with Prentice 120C, 2012 Chevrolet, 1997 GMC bucket truck, several trailers, and Stihl saws.

Nichols

If needed remember "just a sniff" because a diesel engine can become addicted to ether!
If Balein' wire and Duck tape ever quit, my whole place is gonna fall apart!

Chuck White

Another option is to get a couple of those magnetic heaters that you stick onto the side of the engine and then plug it in.
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

POSTON WIDEHEAD

Quote from: Chuck White on December 31, 2014, 09:29:30 PM
Another option is to get a couple of those magnetic heaters that you stick onto the side of the engine and then plug it in.

Chuck, this is new to me. Where do you get these and how much? Thanks.
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

Gearbox

You may get by in OK with a oil pan heater they are only 200 wats it may gain you 10 or 20 degrees . They come in magnetic or a stick on pad . Gearbox
A bunch of chainsaws a BT6870 processer , TC 5 International track skidder and not near enough time

gfadvm

Looks like those magnetic block heaters are available at most auto parts stores, Tractor Supply, northern toolhttps://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=position"> Note:Please read the Forestry Forum's postion on this company.  Priced from `$30-$60 with very mixed reviews. They come in 200 or 300 Watt models.

Still no definitive answer re: ether?

sawguy21

A sniff of ether works fine on a diesel just don't over do it and don't activate the glow plugs. I saw a Mercedes diesel  with glow plugs that got a shot of juice, it wasn't pretty.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

POSTON WIDEHEAD

Quote from: sawguy21 on December 31, 2014, 10:42:44 PM
A sniff of ether works fine on a diesel just don't over do it and don't activate the glow plugs. I saw a Mercedes diesel  with glow plugs that got a shot of juice, it wasn't pretty.


"Hey Y'all...watch this!".  :D
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

Brucer

Ether can be a very bad thing -- sometimes.


  • Ether is a powerful solvent. It can get blown past the piston rings and wash the oil off the cylinder walls, leading to premature wear. This causes low compression, which leads to difficult starting, which increases the demand for ether. :(
  • It explodes violently and can blow out head gaskets and the tops of pistons :o. On lighter engines you can end up with a bent connecting rod.
  • It can ignite in your intake manifold and set fire to your machine.

All of these problems occur when too much ether gets into the cylinder.

Safe (relatively) starting rules:

  • Be sure the engine is turning over when you apply the ether. Spraying it into the intake manifold and then cranking the engine means it will all end up in one or two cylinders on the first stroke -- way too much. I know, it's a pain finding a helper. Do it anyway.
  • Just a quick shot. Better too little than too much at once. If it doesn't catch right away, crank it over few times before trying again.
  • Do NOT, EVER, use ether while using glow plugs. The ether will ignite way too soon on the compression stroke and if another cylinder fires while the piston is coming up, you'll have two cylinders trying to crank the engine in opposite direction. My brother (the heavy duty mechanic) sees this time and again.
  • You can buy commercial injection systems that are reasonably safe to use. They have a replaceable bottle of compressed ether and an electric solenoid. Energizing the solenoid (usually with a push button) doesn't let the ether flow -- it "cocks" the mechanism. When you release the push button, the mechanism lets a small, measured amount of ether flow. The instructions also warn you to only use the system while the engine is turning over. Some built-in systems include an interlock so it won't operate if the engine isn't cranking.

It may not be worth your while to install a commercial system, but at least try to use the manual spray can the same way the commercial systems work.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Gary_C

Brucer is giving you good advice.

I can add that International put ether injection systems on some of their non glow plug diesel engines like the DT 414B that was in the IH  66 and 86 series tractors. I believe all those ether injections were set up so you could only push the ether button when you were cranking the engine (when the start solenoid was engaged).

There are a couple of things you can do to make it easier to start those IH tractors in the cold weather. First is to change engine oil to a full synthetic 5W-40 oil. The second thing is the hydraulic oil specified for those tractors (Hytran) is too thick for cold weather use and is too much drag on the starter in cold weather. You need to switch your hydraulic oil to an ISO 32 grade for cold weather use. You can use that ISO 32 grade year around in that tractor unless you are using it for pulling a plow or other heavy field work in warmer weather. The thicker grade of the Hytran is to protect the gear train in heavy field work applications in warmer conditions.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

magicmikey

 A hair dryer or hot air gun [ faster ] works well for warming the manifold. Better if there is a rubber connection that is removeable, then blow into the pipe while cranking.
mike

goose63

 Can you put a tank heater between the water pump and the block ? that is what I did on my little Jinma and it works good
goose
if you find your self in a deep hole stop digging
saw logs all day what do you get lots of lumber and a day older
thank you to all the vets

dgdrls

External heat source is far and away the best option,
You can also do a little chemistry with the fuel (#2 diesel) additives
or see if #1 diesel is available in your area to assist with low temp starting and running.

DGDrls

Chuck White

Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on December 31, 2014, 09:33:04 PM
Quote from: Chuck White on December 31, 2014, 09:29:30 PM
Another option is to get a couple of those magnetic heaters that you stick onto the side of the engine and then plug it in.

Chuck, this is new to me. Where do you get these and how much? Thanks.


Tractor Supply is where I've seen them the most!

Last sugaring time we had a wood splitter sitting sideways in the lean-to woodshed at the sugar house and the stand was frozen solid to the ground, so we couldn't move it.
We took 1 magnetic block heater and stuck it on the stand and plugged it in and in about 45 minutes it was loose and we moved the wood splitter.
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

sandhills

If you have electricity handy I'd go with tank heater, we have one dad's 4010 JD hooked to an outdoor timer.  We set it to come on a couple hours before we want to use the tractor, at zero degrees it will most likely heat the engine  to 100 or so in that time.

POSTON WIDEHEAD

Alright guys......are we trying to heat the engine oil or the water OR BOTH?
Some said put a heater in the radiator hose and some said heaters on the oil pan.

Will just heating the water be good enough......thats my question. Thanks.
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

goose63

Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on January 01, 2015, 10:57:26 AM
Alright guys......are we trying to heat the engine oil or the water OR BOTH?
Some said put a heater in the radiator hose and some said heaters on the oil pan.

Will just heating the water be good enough......thats my question. Thanks.
A tank heater will heat every thing I had a 1500 watt on a old 350 chev in 45 minutes if you took raider cap off you would bet a face full of hot water :o
goose
if you find your self in a deep hole stop digging
saw logs all day what do you get lots of lumber and a day older
thank you to all the vets

trapper

Years back I remember my friend had quick disconects on his truck and skidder coolant lines.  Drove to the woods  hooked the truck coolant to the skidder and in a few minutes the skidder was warm enough to start.
stihl ms241cm ms261cm  echo 310 400 suzuki  log arch made by stepson several logrite tools woodmizer LT30

gspren

  I have a built in block heater on my JD that works fine. About 30 years ago I had a Massey kept in a shed without electric and I used one of the round kerosene heaters set against the block and then sort of tented with an old canvas tarp, don't try plastic. If I lit the heater and then went about shoveling in front of the doors and little paths for an hour the Massey would start right up.
Stihl 041, 044 & 261, Kubota 400 RTV, Kubota BX 2670, Ferris Zero turn

Dave Shepard

The best bet is a block heater. You can get an external type if you want to pipe it up with some heater hose, or the best kind are the ones were you knock out a frost plug and put it right in the block. I don't think a 300 watt oil pan heater is going to put enough heat into the engine to help much. The block heaters we use are 1000 to 1500 watts, and that's right in the coolant.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Gary_C

Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on January 01, 2015, 10:57:26 AM
Alright guys......are we trying to heat the engine oil or the water OR BOTH?
Some said put a heater in the radiator hose and some said heaters on the oil pan.

Will just heating the water be good enough......thats my question. Thanks.

My answer would be NO. The drag on the starter from cold hydraulic oil in the hydraulic pump will prevent the diesel engine from turning over fast enough to start in cold weather. Some machines with live hydraulic pumps had drive train disconnects for the hydraulic pump to be used in cold weather.

I would rate the most important steps to improve cold weather starting of engines with relatively big hydraulic systems in this way:
1. Lower viscosity hydraulic oil to improve cranking speed.
2. Full synthetic engine oil (5W-40) to also improve cranking speed.

If those two changes do not improve starting in cold temps, then add some heat to the engine block. However heating the engine coolant does nothing for the hydraulic system.

Those engine preheaters built into the newer processors, forwards and skidders have coils built into the hydraulic tanks to heat both engine coolant and hydraulic oil plus they also specify a lower viscosity hydraulic oil for winter operations.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

sandhills

Gary I will agree and yet respectfully disagree a little, the OP is in Tulsa, OK and talked about temps in the 20's, probably not going to get as cold as me and definitely not as cold as what you deal with.  That being said, I wouldn't worry much about hydraulics, we don't change ours for winter here and it's been sub zero at night for about he last week or so, just have to let things set and warm up awhile longer, I'm not saying I'm right but that's what we do, in 20 degree weather I wouldn't see where there should be a problem.

Poston, I agree with goose, it will warm the oil some too,  I have 2, 180-200 hp tractors that have regular block heaters inserted in frost plug holes, they do the job but don't warm the engine near as much as the little tank heater on dad's tractor.  On his if you forget and leave it plugged in when the weather warms a bit I've seen it over 200*.

POSTON WIDEHEAD

Good info Y'all.....in the Carolinas, it hardly ever gets in the teens or 20's and stays there.
My backhoe is a 45-51 HP and the main thing I try to do is to park it where the wind won't hit it.
Cold windy chill factors are brutal. I always put the maintainer charger on the battery every evening.  :)
I'll go to Tractor Supply and see what they offer. They may not have anything  for the warmer area we live in Thats the problem where I live.....none of our stores EVER are ready for cold weather.  :D
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

47sawdust

On my Kubota L3750 I popped out one of the freeze plugs and installed a plug in style block heater that heats the coolant.It is very effective and eliminates the need for ether.I plug the tractor in when it gets below zero and it starts just fine.If you do a google search for your tractor you should find something that works.

Good luck,
Mick
Mick
1997 WM Lt30 1999 WM twin blade edger Kubota L3750 Tajfun winchGood Health Work is my hobby.

Gary_C

Quote from: sandhills on January 01, 2015, 12:21:32 PM
Gary I will agree and yet respectfully disagree a little, the OP is in Tulsa, OK and talked about temps in the 20's, probably not going to get as cold as me and definitely not as cold as what you deal with.  That being said, I wouldn't worry much about hydraulics, we don't change ours for winter here and it's been sub zero at night for about he last week or so, just have to let things set and warm up awhile longer, I'm not saying I'm right but that's what we do, in 20 degree weather I wouldn't see where there should be a problem.

I hear what you are saying, but the number one reason why a diesel (compression ignition) engine does not start in any weather is not turning over fast enough with the starter. So on a tractor that is not used extensively for heavy field work the fastest way to increase engine cranking speed permanently on a tractor that has a somewhat large hydraulic system is to switch to a lower viscosity hydraulic oil. Plus the new full synthetic engine oils have very good multivis properties so you do not sacrifice any wear properties when going to a 5W-40 and that oil will also help with higher cranking speeds.

Those two changes alone should solve the starting problem without having to add any heat. If they don't, I would next check for starter or battery problems and next check for low compression in the engine. To me, heat and/or ether is a last resort and a temporary solution.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

POSTON WIDEHEAD

This is why I keep the maintainer charger on my battery at night during the winter.
If the starter can't maintain the voltage to spin that engine like its suppose to....she ain't got a chance.  :)
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

Dave Shepard

Wind chill only affects things that are at a temperature other than ambient. So, if it's 20° out, the tractor will start the same with 0 mph winds or 50 mph winds. It's only once it starts that the wind chill will affect it.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

gfadvm

Y'all are the best! Thank you!!!

It got up to 33 today and it started right up. I parked it in the barn (1/4 mile from the mill). Not too handy but best option until I can find a heater for it.

Y'all talked me out of the ether but my SIL uses it daily in the winter on his big, expensive tractors.  They may be tougher than my little JD!

thecfarm

I had used those magnetic heaters. I take an old blanket and cover the motor. Put it on the oil pan and it helps. I noticed a difference if I am using the tractor and put the heater on too. If the oil is not up to temp when I put the heater on,I can tell the difference. Or think I can. I got mine at the local part store. Mine is just a small one,about 2½X 6 inches long. I have seen some 6 inches square.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

sandhills

I bought one of the 6" square ones last winter to thaw out a 90* sort of gear box on the bottom of my roller mill that had filled up with water over the summer, (picture a horizontal auger running in one side with a vertical auger being driven by it running 6' or so up) it worked but took 2 days to thaw.  The box was about 8" x 8" and froze solid, we now cover the mill when not in use  ::).

r.man

I used ether safely for over 20 yrs on the same tractor no issues. The glow system was bad so we only started it on ether winter or summer. It needs to be turning over normally and what worked well for us was to give the breather tube a shot below the mushroom cap intake. We didn't take anything off, just hit it with the ether after it was turning over. Give it one shot and if it tries to start but falters give it another quick burst. If you give it too much it will make a clack clack noise. I believe you can use it safely but if you can overcome the problem with an oil change or a heater that is what I would recommend.
Life is too short or my list is too long, not sure which. Dec 2014

StimW

I have used ether for years! As stated just a puff while cranking.
WD-40  used to be great until they made it non-flammable.
I had a 1970 Ford Boom Truck with a 225 CAT engine that came with an ether bottle under the hood and a cable to activate. I only needed it under 15*.
I had a plugin heater on a Chevy Van that you cut the bottom radiator hose and put it in with two hose clamps. It was just a tube with one of those coffee cup heater looking things in it.
Plug it in at night and get up in the morning, start vehicle and turn on the defrosters right away!
One other trick is to push the clutch in so you are not turning the gear oil in the transmission.
All of the above was before I got smarter and moved to Florida!
New HF Band Mill
Branson 35 hp 4 WD Diesel Tractor W/Attachments- Backhoe, FEL W/ Bucket or Forks, 4' Tiller
4000# Clark Forklift W/24" Tires
Promark 6" Brush chipper W/18 hp Kohler

Dave Shepard

Some engine seem to be much more sensitive to it. Detroits for one. We have a whole herd of IH 656 tractors. They will suck up ether by the barrel and not seem to be bothered at all. Two of them have 20,000 hours.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Chuck White

Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on January 01, 2015, 12:30:28 PM
Good info Y'all.....in the Carolinas, it hardly ever gets in the teens or 20's and stays there.
My backhoe is a 45-51 HP and the main thing I try to do is to park it where the wind won't hit it.
Cold windy chill factors are brutal. I always put the maintainer charger on the battery every evening.  :)
I'll go to Tractor Supply and see what they offer. They may not have anything  for the warmer area we live in Thats the problem where I live.....none of our stores EVER are ready for cold weather.  :D


When my mill gets parked in the garage for the Winter, the 1.5A maintainer gets hooked up and stays there until Spring.
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

j-dland

  Seen many busted pistons with ether use. In a pinch, I use a dash of power saw mix. Either in a spray bottle, or just pour a dash in intake. Never have seen a busted piston or broken ring with this application.
David

coxy

i use ether never broke a piston have locked them Detroits up by useing too much let them set a min or two and start over maybe the ether in ny don't have the wallop or mine don't have the cranking speed to brake a piston  ;D  that worthless 3304 cat takes almost a half a can to start in this cold  summer time 1/4 can brand new 500h motor and its ether all the way or go home :)

loggah

you need the older 3304 with the pre combustin chambers and glow plugs, no ether needed !!!! i had a 353 break a piston around the fire ring because of ether !!!!!! dont use it unless you really need to.
Interests: Lombard Log Haulers,Tucker Sno-Cats, Circular Sawmills, Shingle Mills, Maple Syrup Making, Early Construction Equipment, Logging Memorabilia, and Antique Firearms

Corley5

Y'all never ran a diesel out of fuel and then ran it on ether until it picked up fuel ??? ;) ;D :) :)
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

POSTON WIDEHEAD

Quote from: Corley5 on January 02, 2015, 10:07:06 PM
Y'all never ran a diesel out of fuel and then ran it on ether until it picked up fuel ??? ;) ;D :) :)

No....I've always bled the air from the lines on each injector.
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

Corley5

That would be how you're supposed to do it  ;D
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

sandhills

No, but I did drive a LP 4010 JD to the propane barrel using it once  :-X.  About 10k hours later it's still ok just don't tell dad what I did back then  ;).

Don_Papenburg

A little propane will help start a diesel also
Frick saw mill  '58   820 John Deere power. Diamond T trucks

coxy

Quote from: loggah on January 02, 2015, 06:59:53 PM
you need the older 3304 with the pre combustin chambers and glow plugs, no ether needed !!!! i had a 353 break a piston around the fire ring because of ether !!!!!! dont use it unless you really need to.
that's the one but glow plugs don't work  ;D

coxy

Quote from: Corley5 on January 02, 2015, 10:07:06 PM
Y'all never ran a diesel out of fuel and then ran it on ether until it picked up fuel ??? ;) ;D :) :)
just have to stir the pot don't ya  :D :D

Corley5

Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Dave Shepard

I ran my genset off a 500k btu weed burner torch once. You just turn the knob to adjust the speed. :D
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Magicman

Gasoline on a rag over the intake will also work.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

sawguy21

Quote from: Corley5 on January 02, 2015, 10:07:06 PM
Y'all never ran a diesel out of fuel and then ran it on ether until it picked up fuel ??? ;) ;D :) :)
I used to prime Herman-Nelson heaters with WD-40 until the engine caught. Lots of white smoke.  ;D
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Remle

Silicone sprays also work, not as volatile as either and do not wash the cylinder walls.

Magicman

Most of the time it was not what is inside the aerosol can that burned, but the propellant.  For years butane without the added odor was used.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

gfadvm

Magicman, My SIL did the gas on a rag thing last week on a little JD.  It worked but it was knocking REALLY loud on the gas fumes.  Made me very nervous but he says he does it all the time. (he's a farmer that was trained as a GM diesel mechanic)

beenthere

What's a "little" John Deere?
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

coxy

ok this is what ether is    its the night time sniffeling   sneezing   coughing aching   stuffy head so my skidder will start in the morning medicine  :D 8)

j-dland

  You got it with the gas rag MM. I would just add, HOLD on to that rag.
David

gfadvm

been there, It's a 4400 with a 35 HP diesel (Yanmar I think).

coxy

ether was my friend this am with out it my wonderful ford would ha never started   and of course I on hooked the glow plugs before doing the ether trick :D

smoothED

I have an old ford that won't start in the cold, a little saw gas on a rag and it starts right up. Also have an old massey that never wanted to start cold, I put a new starter in it because it would turn so slow even with a new battery, starts right up now.

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