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Need top find a good logger for small 100 standing tree sale

Started by yorlik, December 28, 2014, 11:03:03 AM

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Holmes

  I just don't understand the bashing.    Ohio mills may be different than Michigan mills and take dead ash.  He's a master tree farmer and is required to hire a certified logger. Did you find the "master tree farmer" statement offensive?   Certified logger offensive?  There is a market for the trees. I thought he was trying to find a way to get a good logger.  I just don't see his op as being offensive.
Think like a farmer.

treeslayer2003

Quote from: Corley5 on January 01, 2015, 09:38:06 PM
Several times a year someone has a great deal for me.  If I take down some yard trees and clean up the mess for them I can have the wood free and clear.  What a great deal  ::) ::)
right, he let the cat out of the bag. in Md a logger's licsense does not allow for arborist work. it would be illegal for me to do so........i bet it is this way alot of places.
we are not insured for that, we are loggers.
i suspect the op really just wants to argue, there for i am done with this thread.

Southside

Love the hidden poker card comment about how he did not expect any pay, but later on confirms he figured he would get $200 / MBF stumpage out of the $400 MBF mill price. 

Last year I had a guy ask me to look at a 10 AC lot, plenty of big, and I mean big pine on it, under 10 miles to the mill, he wanted the whole thing clear cut, and oh yea - take down the 30 or so equally big yard trees that were mixed around several buildings, the house and power line.  Funny thing is he also wanted 50% share, uhh - no thanks.

So why was the total owned acres mentioned in the opening post if it was so irrelevant???  As a business owner perhaps Yorlik was never told that as a principal officer in a corporation one is allowed to exempt themselves from having workers comp coverage, and if you are a one man operation like my teeny, tiny, mini corporation is, I am exempt from needing it, which keeps me compliant  Yorlik - "A self made business man knows how the system can be beat".  Did they ever teach ya that at Carnegie Mellon??? 

Its night here - guess I gotta go fly by.....
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Jeff

The original post was not offensive in the least. It was his subsequent post. Please read the entire exchange. The bashing is coming from the original poster. In several spots.

Let me make this clear.  When you start a topic, and start a conversation, that does NOT mean you control what other people have to say. That is the nature of conversation. As long as people are civil, there is no reason why the conversation can't expand. In fact, in this case, where there were details given, that demanded that the conversation expanded in order to answer the question. If you don't like the answers given, fine, but you don't attack the messengers. The original poster clearly lacks a lot of information that he thinks he has.  Michigan was the epicenter of the EAB. We all know up here that a tree does not suddenly die. They die over time, and usually, by the time they are noticed, the bark is already falling off in places due to the borers. This leads to a degradation of the timber and rapidly so once the bark is coming off.

The scragg mention. That is funny.  It is indicative on how the original poster reads the information given to him to try and help him. He sees it the way he wants to see it.  He read it as SKAG not scrag.   Let me clear that up for him. A scragg milll is a well known piece of equipment used to process a certain size log. many times on site. Saw Logs that work best for this mill are referred to as scragg logs. He took huge offense to one sentence because he thinks he has a clue about things when he does not.

Having a "Professional" logger cut yard trees in exchange for stumpage?  That again shows no clue. Loggers aint Tree service guys. You know who is most apt to take that deal? The guys that are NOT the guys you want in your woodlot.

If the original poster would have not called this forum out as a bunch of good old boys, and continued on with the attitude after my first post  I'd be far more inclined to write in a different tone, but as I said in that post, it was his call. This is the path he chose.

Master tree farmer?  That doesn't impress me Titles are nothing but that. You can buy that, just like you can buy a workmans comp cert. He seems to think that makes you a professional logger. The original poster is the one that has come to this forum for help then slammed those that try to help him. He has done that with no idea who are behind these posts.

Let me see, what kind of members do we have here? Everything from the landowner to retired Forest Product Laboratory Research Scientists. You can't come on here and dictate who is going to answer your questions when you have no idea who they are to begin with. You don't want answers, dont ask questions.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

coxy

Dang your guys internet is a lot faster then mine  ;D or you can type faster  one or the other  :) 

CCC4

Quote from: Holmes on January 01, 2015, 10:00:03 PM
  I just don't understand the bashing.    Ohio mills may be different than Michigan mills and take dead ash.  He's a master tree farmer and is required to hire a certified logger. Did you find the "master tree farmer" statement offensive?   Certified logger offensive?  There is a market for the trees. I thought he was trying to find a way to get a good logger.  I just don't see his op as being offensive.

I think for me the post wasn't offensive really as far as offending anyone by his remarks or what ever he posted. I am very warey of people with titles that throw them out there in an introduction. "Master Tree Farmer here...", I mean...yeh...really...hmmm.

I was working at the mill and a new fork lift driver was coming in. Right off the bat we were like what can you do, what have been doing...ya know, normal stuff. "I'm a certified fork lift OP"! We (the crew) all turned and looked at each other and was ...Oh really???!!! He got in the seat and had zero idea how to run a W11...he was like, "Well I have never run one like this"...ok fine...understandable. He goes for a scoop of logs and couldn't even level his forks to get a scoop...he was plowing ditches like over a foot deep! LOL! Once he did get his scoop...he scattered them all over the yard trying to get to the green chain! I mean if the guy had shown up saying I know jack about a lift, then all would be understandable. But...when you show up as a "Certified" fork lift OP...and look like a monkey screwing a football out there trying to get a scoop of logs....well you get the point.

I think I have told this story before but it kind of applies here. I was on a Corps Of Engineers job just South of me. The project manager was a young guy. One day I was talking to him and he referred to me a s a "Civilian" and he really wasn't supposed to be talking to me. I looked at him with a big ol grin and said something in the order of, "how can you keep a straight face with what you just said?". I mean the kid was young...and short...and he was gonna try and use his certification to gain a few inches. I just was like, dude everytime I see you out here I am gonna talk to ya out of spite He just smiled and we became pretty good friends. Actually I will cutting on one of his "sales" he just marked, heading down there in 2 weeks for a 6 week Hydro Ax cut. The guy is my project manager again and it will be good to see him.

Lastly...another type of miss use is using your belief in your introduction statement. Such as...if you ever go to a used car lot and the salesman comes out, extends his hand and says, "I'm {John Smith} and I'm a Christian....RUNNNN! Lol!

coxy


Mooseherder

I took offense in his reply when he implied we were good ole boys even though I think some responses to him were out of line and removed.  Then tonight he writes a 2nd manifesto putting everyone in their place again.
He tells Jeff that his reply was too long to copy and paste, praises him and then says hope you don't let this place go to you know where.
That's language we don't even use here.
Quite frankly, I think this is the most negative thread we have had for a whole year and it was started by someone new who probably isn't used to not controlling a conversation.   When was the last time you can remember a thread that's got so many members cranked. They just aren't out there.

Maine logger88

79 TJ 225 81 JD 540B Husky and Jonsered saws

Philbo


[/quote]
But...when you show up as a "Certified" fork lift OP...and look like a monkey screwing a football out there trying to get a scoop of logs....
[/quote]

Just read this entire thread...kinda want my 45 minutes back, but this was the best part!


FarmingSawyer

Quote from: Mooseherder on January 01, 2015, 11:13:46 PM
I took offense in his reply when he implied we were good ole boys even though I think some responses to him were out of line and removed.  Then tonight he writes a 2nd manifesto putting everyone in their place again.
He tells Jeff that his reply was too long to copy and paste, praises him and then says hope you don't let this place go to you know where.
That's language we don't even use here.
Quite frankly, I think this is the most negative thread we have had for a whole year and it was started by someone new who probably isn't used to not controlling a conversation.   When was the last time you can remember a thread that's got so many members cranked. They just aren't out there.

Quote from: Maine logger88 on January 02, 2015, 12:31:07 AM
Well said Moose!

Exactly.  I've read 1000s of posts here since I joined during the summer. This thread is extremely Atypical. The only other one I can think of is another logging site gone wrong post...... Must have been an end of the year glitch in the cosmos..... Or because us good ole boys and gals are a bunch of scraggs.... ;D  :new_year:
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RunningRoot

Yorlik......

I will pm you his information. Not sure if he is busy right now or not, but low impact logging is his thing...
He may be able to help you...

I didn't read all these posts, if you have ash of that size you should do a little better.

You must understand, a lot of land owners want the impossible from loggers including myself. There is LO'S that expect the woods to look exactly like it did before harvest, literally.

I have cut for LO'S that thought their woulddnt be skid trails involved and thought there wouldn't be tops left behind... we have no pulp market so tops will stay where they fall and how is one to remove the timber without skid trails, even mules use a trail, and a lot of times they want it all done in a complely unreasonable time...

All professional loggers have dealt with these kind of LO'S.
It's not only what you posted  that struck spark, it's that when posted in that way it gave the impression of one of those completely unreasonable LO'S which always seems to be a consistent frustration in the logging business

You would never believe some of the completely unrealistic stuff some LO'S expect from loggers. 

It was more or less the impression received from the OP and the lack of professionalism within the words.

I know of "loggers" like you speak of but I still respect them and i would not speak about them in a way as to imply negativity being associated with them and their work.
Everybody has to start somewhere... maybe they can't afford anything other than a bobcat, can't afford a five man crew, that doesn't mean their gonna do a bad job harvesting your timber and don't mean their not professional.
The work that's done with appropriate knowledge, skill and delivered satisfaction is what makes a professional job, not the equipment used.
Maybe they haven't taken the class's  necessary to obtain their ohio master loggers certificate,which I'll have next month and will be on ODNR's website as a recommended local logger, I only have one course left.
That certificate isn't gonna make me do any better job than I do already,take my word on that, its just gonna broaden my window of potential jobs.

Regardless of it all...
Welcome to the forum..
Try and make your next post a little more suttle... haha
Remember, sugar on a stick,not just the stick...
A log in the hands worth two in the bush !

Jeff

RunningRoot, thank you for taking the time to make that post in the manner you did. Over the last decade and a half, I've taken the time to try and nicely explain things to many people. Years ago, even to those that didn't deserve it because of the way they presented themselves, just like in this topic. I guess I'm getting tired. You posted the way I should have, or at least at one time would have. Thank you.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

mesquite buckeye

Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

pine

RunningRoot
Wow a post that is well thought out and helpful to the poster yet still communicates the concerns that you have, and have had, with land owners without flaming.  Kudos, nicely done and thank you.

I would like to hope that I can take exception with your statement near the end:
"That certificate isn't gonna make me do any better job than I do already,take my word on that, its just gonna broaden my window of potential jobs."

That states that you have learned nothing from the courses required to get the certification. 
If that is true then you are either a very rare individual or that the folks that designed the courses for the certification are incompetent. 

I have found that I always learn something when I read/study up on a subject even one in which I am an expert.  Even if it is only small details I am always learning something.  I would hope the course is not so low quality that nothing could be learned from it and thus improving your knowledge in some way.

Either way thanks for the insightful post.

RunningRoot

Pine...

I stand corrected...

I have learned a few things from the courses and am sure I will continue learning new things throughout my logging career.

I merely ment that I already impose careful, thought out and strategic tactics when harvesting timber from any parcel or tract.
Of course I have learned new ways to help with this..

I believe a bad logging job is done by a logger that doesn't care at all, not one that has best intentions in mind but lacks knowledge. See what I'm saying ?

The tracts you see that look like a war zone were not done by someone that was trying to do their best to utilize BMP's. They merely were there to collect and move to the next job.

I have been doing already a lot of what I have learned from those courses.

The goal is to harvest the timber and cause the least amount of damage as possible,
it doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at a road grade and know that it will hold or carry watter, or know crossing a creek can cause further bank erosion, or that trying to skid 200 tons of timber the day after 6 inches of rain is going to rut everything up and what causes excess soil compaction..

I learned different methods to accomplish the harvest while preserving that around me but at the same time, I was already doing a good job of this long before I took those courses.
Yes I learned alot from them... but the naked eye will never see a difference between my past harvestes and my future harvests using that of what I learned from those courses...
A log in the hands worth two in the bush !

barbender

Well said RunningRoot ;) I have learned a few things from the courses I have taken, but not enough that it has a significant impact on how I do my job. It seems to me that a lot of these courses are trying to educate people on something that can't really be taught. That is, how do you "teach" someone to give a rip if they are doing a good job or not?
Too many irons in the fire

RunningRoot

Barbender....
You are absolutely 100% right...
My point exactly, thank you....
A log in the hands worth two in the bush !

coxy

Quote from: yorlik on December 28, 2014, 11:03:03 AM


No one on Ohio Forestry master logger list say they log in SW Ohio.  So it appears on the surface I am down to small un-certified, potentially uninsured, workers comp-less, local little guys. 

I am sending emails off to small non certified Ohio & Indiana loggers I can find who may work around SW Ohio but no hits yet. 

Any ideas for  how I can find some decent loggers?
not to keep this going   but did any one else catch this  in the other posts its states that they have to be OHIO CERTIFIED  ???

Firewoodjoe

Wow 😳 I cant believe I skipped this. I want to know what a Master tree farmer is. I know a farmer harvest his crops he grows😃

yorlik


enigmaT120

Quote from: Firewoodjoe on January 03, 2015, 08:44:17 PM
Wow 😳 I cant believe I skipped this. I want to know what a Master tree farmer is. I know a farmer harvest his crops he grows😃

In Oregon, the OSU Extension Service has a course called Master Woodland Manager training, along the same lines as the Master Gardener and a bunch of other types.  I figured the Master Tree Farmer was something similar.  I took the MWM training and it was good but it doesn't make you a forester.  Note the OP doesn't claim to be a forester, and has hired one to work with him on his project. 
Ed Miller
Falls City, Or

Jeff

My comments On "buying a title" are certainly not to condemn any of those fine programs. My comments are to say that pulling out a title and throwing it around means nothing to me. Especially if it is used to try and put yourself over someone or a group without the title. You can get a title from attending classes or jumping through hoops, but they are meaningless if you don't take away with you the information given or the ability to use that information in a fruitful manor.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

mesquite buckeye

Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

yorlik

Since all I got from my initial request for help was bashing from the regulars here, and no help to my question - including from the Ohio guy who made himself feel good promising a name then never did so for  a local mule guy - I thought I would reply one last time so you'all could bash one more time.  :)

To all those of you who saw through the sad bashing and PMed me morale support for standing up to them, a heartfelt THANK YOU.

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