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Spruce, Pine and Hemlock, oh my

Started by FarmingSawyer, December 24, 2014, 06:27:58 AM

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FarmingSawyer

So...I just got chewed over the phone for my bf price for 20 foot spruce 2x material....... The fellow on the other end didn't say what it was in his area, but hemlock was $.55/bf, and he didn't specify what dimensions this was for. This would be sawn from my own stock of logs or wood I buy in--currently spruce 16ft logs with a 5" top are in the area of $295/M But most spruce here is sold for pulp.

I'm pretty careful to research pricing before I make a statement of value. I also know what my materials cost, and overhead is--well, within the ballpark at the moment--I also check with retail yards to see where there pricing is. I did point out that many prices in lumber yards were by the LF...which is deceiving when you figure out the real BF price, which is almost always higher than it seems.

In my experience as a builder, rough sawn, specialty material always cost more than lumber yard stock. Longer lengths were always higher too.

So what are you all pricing spruce, hemlock or pine 2x material for? Do you charge more for longer lengths? Do you charge more or less by species? I'm not out to compete with the box stores--as if they could offer 1/2 the quality I try to achieve--nor do I want to turn a fast buck.....just trying to be fair to myself and my customers.
Thomas 8020, Stihl 039, Stihl 036, Homelite Super EZ, Case 385, Team of Drafts

dgdrls

Good morning FS,

ref.  NYSDEC Stumpage report
Spruce in NY is listing Ave. $115/1000 Int 1/4 scale. ($ spread 80-170)
Hemlock is listing Ave $65/1000 Int 1/4  ($ spread  40-70)

Local mill sells
                       Hemlock 2x12x8 at $0.75/BF   or $12
                      Hemlock 2x12x20 $1.35/BF   or  $54
                       Base 2x4x8 price is $3.35
                       I understand he works with specific loggers, I don't know his raw cost(s)
                       
He has been at this a while and I don't believe he is at-all concerned with Lowes or Home D.
In the past I have mirrored my prices at or within a few cents to his,  He is full-time, I am not.

This certainly ties to educating the customer and marketing the quality of your material.



Old saying but very true!
'If you want nice fresh oats you have to pay a fair price. If you can be satisfied with oats that have already been thru the horse, that comes a little cheaper.'

:christmas:

DGDrls



sealark37

Some customers would happily prefer that you provide the logs, saw the lumber, then load or deliver for free.  After all, it's your hobby, and you do it for fun.

beenthere

QuoteSo...I just got chewed over the phone for my bf price for 20 foot spruce 2x material....

I'd suggest you not worry about getting "chewed" for a price that you figure you would/could sell your 20' spruce 2x. Whoever it was can take it or leave it. Just don't saw it without his money in hand, and don't do it for less than what you want.

For sure, this same caller would fuss and fume over whatever you did saw out for him, so be glad you didn't get into a deal with him for the trouble he'd be in your future.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

FarmingSawyer

Quote from: dgdrls on December 24, 2014, 08:32:41 AM
Old saying but very true!
'If you want nice fresh oats you have to pay a fair price. If you can be satisfied with oats that have already been thru the horse, that comes a little cheaper.'
[/color]
:christmas:

DGDrls
;D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D ;D
Thomas 8020, Stihl 039, Stihl 036, Homelite Super EZ, Case 385, Team of Drafts

FarmingSawyer

Quote from: sealark37 on December 24, 2014, 08:42:52 AM
Some customers would happily prefer that you provide the logs, saw the lumber, then load or deliver for free.  After all, it's your hobby, and you do it for fun.

When a customer responds to a paid commercial ad for lumber sales I would hope they're not figuring this is a hobby.........
Thomas 8020, Stihl 039, Stihl 036, Homelite Super EZ, Case 385, Team of Drafts

FarmingSawyer

So just to affirm I wasn't insane....I placed some calls this AM. I phoned 4 major lumber yards all within 50 miles of here and all having a small custom sawmill attached to them. After the holiday I may phone a couple of the more major small sawmills I know of across the state....... Each of the yards I contacted have multiple locations across the area, so I am assuming their pricing is the same for multiple regions and not geared to the gold coast, where I live, only......

I each gave them a fictional lumber order to quote to give me their best price. I gave each the same criteria. I also asked for pretty bog-basic standard material, but wanted it rough sawn, but accepted a quote for S4S--KD. I was really surprised that some of my material wasn't available from ANYONE..... 4x6 cedar is a pretty standard dimension in my experience...... Same thing with 12ft pine, hemlock or spruce 4x6.....

So, here are my results.......



 
I can see that I may, just may.....need to up my prices on some things, and tweak them lower on others...... But by and large what I am charging suits me and is an average of the results.
Thomas 8020, Stihl 039, Stihl 036, Homelite Super EZ, Case 385, Team of Drafts

drobertson

All I can say is I never figured you off base at all, in fact I'm sure most folks did not either.  It really boils down to the going market price in your area.   I've struggled at times with pricing SYP around here for cabin and shed builds, and I believe most of this comes from an economy where many folks are still struggling with finances.   It still seems many folks like to hit the local lumber yard, for many reasons, some of which I believe is a credit line, other reasons stem from fighting poorly sawn rough sawn, which most will agree our stock off our mills is pretty far from (rough).
as to taking a chewing,  from a prospective buyer, I'd say "sorry I cant' help you on this one".  I just need to find the margin that fits for everyone.  Sometimes it's in their favor as well as mine, other times not so.   There have been many calls by folks with sharp pencils and tight wallets.  Pretty sure humble pie is on the table when our prices are passed up. 
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

ScottAR

Sounds like you've done your homework.  Stick to your guns.
Some people would be offended if the lumber was free.
Scott
"There is much that I need to do, even more that I want to do, and even less that I can do."
[Magicman]

YellowHammer

Any potential customer who chews me out over price will have a very short conversation!  If your price is based on your convictions and research, then the price is what the price is.  I once had a guy complain my cedar price was too high, so I told him he was welcome to shop somewhere else.  He said he would if he could, but nobody carried the grade and thickness I had! So he bought a mess of it anyway.   The way I look at it, if my price is right, and this guy doesn't buy, the next customer will. 
YH
   
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Magicman

Anytime that a potential customer states that someone else's sawing or lumber is cheaper, just respond that they know what their sawing/lumber is worth.  You get what you pay for.   ;D
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Dewey

WOW  Where are you getting the Cedar Prices ????

thecfarm

My little world was a veggie stand. I had a guy that I use to do home repair for. I was selling a pound of string beans for $2.50. I had a sign saying that,but he asked,How much? I told him.And he said that is too much,good luck getting it. I told him,my luck must be good,because I have sold 20 pounds all ready. This is the same guy that would complain about a homeowner about his prices.  ::)  I've had people ask how much if they buy 5 pounds of something,it would be 5 times the price. Or if we had cukes 3 for a dollar how much would 30 be? Everyone looking for a deal. Our prices was lower than a area veggie stand. But there was always someone looking for a deal. I did not deal. Had some come close to closing and ask about reduced prices on baked good. No reduced prices. Some would ask,why not? If it did not sell I will eat it,would be my reply. I did not mean to say everyone. Some would pay and if the bill came to $7 they would give me a $10 and say keep the change. They knew how hard we worked to put out a good product.
Set your prices and stick to them. Let the ones looking for a deal,look some place else. I had a couple customers look at Brenda's Garden Shed and then ask how much for me to saw out the same thing. These was the bargain hunter's. I delt with them in the past. I gave them a real high price. That kept them away.  ;)  I am not in the selling lumber business anyways.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

FarmingSawyer

Quote from: Dewey on December 24, 2014, 10:47:40 PM
WOW  Where are you getting the Cedar Prices ????
The highest cedar price was for imported Western Red--over $7/bf!!!! for a 4x4........ The 2nd highest was a lumberyard & mill nearby in Waldoboro for custom sawn 4x4...$2.35/bf. Crazy..... I was also surprised about their price for a pine 4x6....$3.45/bf? Wonder if they sell many of those? Or perhaps it was because it was "custom" and rough sawn...... Perhaps because they don't saw out or sell much rough cedar. Not sure. The fact that they didn't have 4x6's in rough cedar even in their price list was
odd...... I've put up 1000's of BF of them as trellis beams........

I guess with prices like these out there, us little guys, can keep busy with more reasonable prices. And no mention of grade was discussed, other than one person asking me if any of my "order" was visual......


If I was truly bidding this job Viking would have to get my business..... Really wondering why pine costs more than spruce for structural beams, though......
Thomas 8020, Stihl 039, Stihl 036, Homelite Super EZ, Case 385, Team of Drafts

FarmingSawyer

Quote from: Magicman on December 24, 2014, 10:31:01 PM
Anytime that a potential customer states that someone else's sawing or lumber is cheaper, just respond that they know what their sawing/lumber is worth.  You get what you pay for.   ;D

MM anytime some one tells me a guy with a big hydraulic mill came and only charged them $.20/bf to saw I tell them they better hire them and use them till their broke....cause at that rate, running my simpler, manual mill, I'd go bust quick. Can't even fathom what y'all pay for operations of a powerful hydraulic mill per bf. Then they customer usually adds that they didn't want to hire them again cause the lumber was all wavy....... Yup...ya get what ye pay for.....
Thomas 8020, Stihl 039, Stihl 036, Homelite Super EZ, Case 385, Team of Drafts

bandmiller2

Sawyer your mill you set your price. If your swamped with buyers perhaps your prices are on the low side. If few sales mayby your a little pricy. You are wise to be in your local ballpark its fair to everyone. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

SawyerBrown

This one is so simple, in my mind.  If someone says they can get it cheaper somewhere else (or, they can make more money ..., or they can get better quality ..., or ....), then the logical thing for them to do is by all means, go get it there!  In almost every case I've ever seen, when you call their bluff, there is a reason they're coming to you!
Pete Brown, Saw It There LLC.  Wood-mizer LT35HDG25, Farmall 'M', 16' trailer.  Custom sawing only (at this time).  Long-time woodworker ... short-time sawyer!

scully

I would like to thank all you guys for this thread ! Todays class was awesome !
I bleed orange  .

Magicman

Heck, today we are at recess. :P   8)
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

FarmingSawyer

Some of us stopped by the playground today anyway......  :D :snowball: :snowball: :snowball:
Thomas 8020, Stihl 039, Stihl 036, Homelite Super EZ, Case 385, Team of Drafts

redprospector

The last time I had a "customer" chew me out over the phone, I told him that I owned this outfit, and that I was the boss, and that if there was any chewing going on at my place of business that I'd be the one doing it, and then hung up. I couldn't believe it when he called back, much nicer than before, wanting to place an order. I told him that I'd have to think about it a while, to call me back later and I'd let him know if I was willing to do work for him or not.
In the long run he turned out to be a pretty good customer.
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

petefrom bearswamp

You need a thick skin in this business.
Disregard the chewing and go about your business.
I quote prices and if the person ( I wont say customer yet) doesnt like it he or she goes elsewhere.
Many times th is person is back to buy
Kubota 8540 tractor, FEL bucket and forks, Farmi winch
Kubota 900 RTV
Polaris 570 Sportsman ATV
3 Huskies 1 gas Echo 1 cordless Echo vintage Homelite super xl12
57 acres of woodland

Magicman

I have found many times that a new customer's hesitation is due to a bad experience with another "sawyer".  Those become repeat customers.  ;D
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

woodworker9

I'm late to the thread, but feel like I've got something to add, so I will.  After running my own business for 25 years, I've learned that losing some customers is like losing brain cancer.   In the end, you really don't mind.  You can't make everybody happy, and some people cannot be made happy, no matter how far you bend over backwards to try and service them.

If I'm getting the lion's share of work, I know that what I'm charging is correct.  My business model doesn't charge related to cost, and being cheaper.  I sell top shelf quality, and charge accordingly for my years of experience in my field.

When you pay peanuts, you get a lot of monkeys.  I prefer to run from those customers.

Cheers, and Happy New Year.
03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

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