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Contract misunderstanding

Started by Raymond, August 10, 2004, 10:31:41 AM

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Ron Wenrich

The only thing I would add to the above is to get to really know your forester.  Not all foresters are like Ron or other foresters that frequent this forum.  

Of the consulting foresters that are in my area, there are only a few that I would allow on a woodlot.  The rest are just timber pushers and only care about the bottom line - thiers, not yours.

There are also some good procurement (company) foresters.  Again, references should be used.

A lot of problems can be taken care of if you just take the time to get a second opinion.  In Raymond's case, any competent logger would have told him that it was worth more.  Any lawyer would have blown holes in the contract.  
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Raymond

Thanks for all your support and ideas I have given them to my dad to give to his lawyer.As for a update on Aug.31 the logger,his lawyer,my dad and his lawyer are going to meet at the property and the logger is going to mark what trees he wants to complete the contract.It's either this or go to arbitration which my dad's lawyer didn't recomend because the contract was signed and he would lose.My dad is a very trusting person and when the logger and him looked at the area to be cut came to a verble agreement so when the contract was brought out it was sighed.One of the lines in the contract said all usable timber 16" or larger on the stump at the cutting height,this ended up being ground level and the 16" was measured from the outside of the root on each side of the stump so it might of been 12" one way but using the root made 16" the other this was never explained.Is this a normal way of measuring stump diameter? We did find one stump that was under 16" and took a picture of it.But in the contract it does say the woodcutter's have the right to cut multiple stemmed,scarred or otherwise deformed trees in order to obtain only the usable timber,and my dad's lawyer said they could use this as a reason for cutting it. Thank's again for all your replies and I will keep you updated on what happens.Raymond

NewEnglandTreeSvc

I've never heard the term "At the stump". <edited by admin>

My contracts specify "Diameter at breast height" (roughly 5 feet above the ground for most people). When I grind stumps, they're mesured by their "diameter at root flare".

I hope everything works out in the end, Raymond. FWIW, you can at least file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau. If anyone ever checks on him, it'll be on file.

Keep us posted!
Erik Lovell, Arborist


Gary_C

Raymond

Thanks for the update.  Especially after reading it, I strongly urge you to hire a consulting forester as your lawyer does not have the knowledge of logging practices to protect your interests in this case. At least talking to a good consulting forester or perhaps your state DNR forester may stop this job right where it is.

Gary
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Buzz-sawyer

Insult to injury!!
I dissagree with your lawyer....they arent all good and dont all know how to win.........
I would not concede at this point and give him your woods!!!
    HEAR THAT BLADE SING!

SwampDonkey

Anywhere I practiced and was tought about forest mensuration, stump height is 0.3 m, measured from where the ground meets the base of the stem, on the high side of the stump. I've done residue and waste surveys on the west coast of BC and stumps higher than 0.3 m is a 'ding' against the logger (if defined in the cutting contract).

Here is an excerpt from the residue and waste manual

Was stump height defined in the contract? Because if it wasn't, its assumed to be 0.3 m (12 inches) with regards to forest mensuration. BUT, you can't hold the guy to an general assumption. There are lots of things we can assume, but if it isn't written, too bad.  The only exception to 0.3 m I could think of is, if the guy used a feller buncher or similar felling head which cuts into the butt flare of the tree. Which can be a pain in the keister when debarking pulpwood. Some mills reject that butt flare wood or make you buck the flare off.

cheers
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Kirk_Allen

Norm I am SO SORRY!  You are correct regarding my post and I shold have thought it through better prior to posting.  

I in know way was implying you but I know you know that.  I apoligize to all those from the great state of Iowa if my post created any problems..........with one exception and thats to the intended person!  
 
Again, sorry for any misunderstanding.  

Kirk

<edited to protect the forum. To much info to I.D. there Kirk>

Jeff

I sure wish you would send me the name of this guy. I want some attention brought to his way of doing business. I gaurantee I know who to talk to about him and who to sic on him. I bet I am friends with at least one of the places he tries to sell his ill gotten gains and maybe we could put a stop to that.

Get a forester involvoed. Odds are you Dads Lawyer aint going to know what he should about this.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Furby

By all means DON'T let that guy back on the property!!!

Gary_C

If the contract does allow him to cut trees to get to the merchantable trees, it still would not give him the right to remove the cull tree. Therefore if he has removed any logs from trees below 16" he is in violation of his own contract. I don't believe any court would allow him to cut trees below his own limits and remove those trees also. That would allow him to cut any tree, say it was in his way, and remove the logs without compensation to you.

Therefore, if you have proof that he has cut one tree below the limit and removed the logs, he has violated the contract!!!!!!!

You absolutely need a consulting forester and/or the state DNR involved. Many states have adopted a "Best Management Practices Act" and are cracking down on loggers like this that have been giving all loggers a bad reputation. A good forester could survey the site and determine if he has followed both the contract and best managemt practices and give your lawyer reason to stop this job now. Do not let him continue the destruction of your woods.

Gary
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

NewEnglandTreeSvc

Well put... pretty much a license to clearcut. Who's to say what's in the way and what isn't? The guy who'll be benefitting the most, that's who.

I sincerely hope (and I'm sure the others here do as well) you don't let this go! If this idiot continues, the repercussions could take years to fully evidence themselves.

Start with soil erosion and work from there.
Erik Lovell, Arborist


Norm

I'm not a lawyer but I stayed in a Holiday Inn once... ;D

Legal opinions are like doctors opinions, get more than one and make sure you get it from someone who specializes in that particular area.


Corley5

I say it's time for a hanging >:(  Get the law involved too.  This guy needs to do some time for what he's done, has surely done before and will undoubtably do again in the future if he isn't put in place now.
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

beenthere

Is it just possible there may be a 'side' to this 'story' that we don't know?  I certainly don't support a logger doing what this one has been accused of doing.  And do I agree with getting a knowledgable lawyer (assumming because of the comments that this one isn't) and/or a forester involved, and not letting this logger back on the property, and even 'hanging' this logger out to dry.
I'd like to see justice dealt out to anyone doing wrong. I'd go for more information in the meantime before suggesting anything too radical, and if a lawyer will take it to court, decide it there.
Getting a media story out may help too.  
Hopefully Raymond's father will get some additional help and there will be a happy ending to this.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Ron Wenrich

I like the media angle.   8)  

It's something that most of us forget about, but it can be a very powerful tool.  Even more powerful than the court system.

Besides the press, there are also local talk shows.  You'll have to be careful not to use names, due to slander or station liabilities.  
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Furby

A couple of our local news stations do investigations into things like this. If they find something they can back up, they get a good story and you usually get help of some kind.

At the very least I WOULD shop around for a lawyer, heck our phonebook has it's own color coded area for lawyers, and it's a LOT more then a few pages thick!

Gary_C

The problem with getting the media involved is that you may stir up the anti-logging crowd and get as much attention for yourself as you get for the logger.

I don't think it is a good idea, especially with the frustration the anti-logging people are feeling with the new federal laws that are blocking their protests in the courts.

Gary
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

beenthere

Gary_C
So, we should shy away from these anti's and be afraid of them (that is how they are so powerful now, IMO), as well as let the no-good logger get away with misleading the timber owner?    Somehow, neither sits well with me.

If anything, the anti's might have interest on the side of the timber owner, in this case (for sure not the logger  :) ).

south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Buzz-sawyer

In my state this would be considered criminal (FRAUD) most likely, due to several details,

particularly the extortion-like pressure they are putting on you through LEGAL means.
It sounds like he conned your dad in the serious state of health and older age...to sell all his timber ....or at least he says 25000 worth that he wants in compensation for what he paid 5000 for??????
Come on, that is the definition of fraud!!!!
As for your lawyer, sounds weak to me. Sometimes ya gotta fight for whats right.....I pray God gives ya strength through all this to stand and WIN
    HEAR THAT BLADE SING!

Ron Wenrich

I ran this past another logger/mill owner.  He's been around the business most of his life.  

My first reaction and his is that you don't want arbitration.  I've been involved with arbitration one time.  It ends up that a panel of lawyers decide how things are going to be done.

What you really want is a jury trial.  How do you think this guy's going to come off before 12 other people?  I might even think about suing this guy for timber theft.  Theft by deception.

In my state, timber is considered real estate until severed.  Then it becomes personal property.  Don't you have a period of time that you can back out of a contract?  Real estate law may come into play.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

David_c

first i want to say what this tree cutter did was aweful and he makes real loggers look bad. but this would have never happend if the property owner would have taking the time to read the contract. instead he wanted/needed the $5000 and then is upset that he didn't get the job done the way he wanted. remember he went to the cutter he didn't come to him. either way it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Tom

While we all do dumb things and I'm sure we would all, in fairness, like to spread the blame, the fact remains that the integrity of a professional and his business depends on the way he treats customers

We all go to someone else who is knowledgeable about a profession that we know nothing or little about.  That's why we have Plumbers, auto mechanics, welders, etc.  We can't all know it all.  This leaves the population in the lurch of believing someone is honest, dishonest or somewhere in-between from the get-go.  

We all would like to believe in another's honesty,but, where do you go to find out?  Sometimes we're just too ignorant to know where to check.  In this case, do you check to see if he is a good logger or do you call the sheriff to see if he is a crook.  Who would know that a call to a forester might solve all of the problems.  Now...... is the forester in cahoots with some body?

Because of people who do business like this, every generation creates a more distrustful populace.  Where business could once be done on a handshake, the younger set comes to the meeting protected by three lawyers.  (All three seeing if they can trim his tail feathers when he isn't looking.

It's professionals like these that change the whole face of the world.  There will always be dishonest folks.  It's a shame that they seem to be found so frequently.  

If there is one thing to be learned it is 'to be honest to the point that it hurts".  "Nice" everybody to death.  Make a customer think he got the best part of the deal, not that you did him a favor.  Your actions not only paint you a public color but tint the entire profession to which you belong.

While some people think they can abuse a customer one time and never worry about it because the world is full of customers, they are wrong.  It eventually comes back to haunt them.

If this tale is true and the logger did to this man what it sounds like he did, then he deserves to be hit with every penalty in the book of law, tarred, feathered and run out of town on a rail

Just as a side thought.....  I wonder if this logger would appreciate his doctor prolonging the treatment of a broken leg or chainsaw wound because the doctor had a car payment to make?

MemphisLogger

Quote"Just as a side thought.....  I wonder if this logger would appreciate his doctor prolonging the treatment of a broken leg or chainsaw wound because the doctor had a car payment to make?"

Tom, are you suggesting that someone should break the bad logger's legs and/or mess 'im up with a chainsaw?  :D :D

If so, I suggest that a public tarring might be more approprate, or perhaps a "run o' the gauntlet" at the next county fair or logging expo.  ;D

Seriously, I believe that the State Forester should be involved in this dispute.
Scott Banbury, Urban logger since 2002--Custom Woodworker since 1990. Running a Woodmizer LT-30, a flock of Huskies and a herd of Toy 4x4s Midtown Logging and Lumber Company at www.scottbanbury.com

Oldtimer

Some towns in NH have a form that must be filled out and signed along with the intent to cut form. It warns of crooked loggers and SFIs and BMPs and wetland permits and all that. I think this should be a common thing in all towns in the US.
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Gary_C

Any update on this Raymond?  Did you have your meeting?
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

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