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Contract misunderstanding

Started by Raymond, August 10, 2004, 10:31:41 AM

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Raymond

Recently my dad decided to sell some hardwood trees on the 160 acres he owns in Presque Isle county.There happened to be a logger working in the area so he stopped and talked to him and he said he would be more than happy to have a look.To make a long story short he offered him $5000 for the trees and when dad ask how many trees he would cut he said he would know when to quit and if he would cut more he would pay extra.Since dad had just went thru treatments for cancer and needed some money for bills he said ok.A contract was signed.The logger moved his equipment in the next day and began cutting.Dad returned two day later and found the area they looked at clear cut there was also damage to many other trees they didn't cut including some planted pine I helped plant some 30 yrs. ago.Dad being very unhappy with this ask him to leave which he did the next day.Now my dad is being sued for $100,000 for breach of contract or the logger said he would take $25,000 worth of tree's.Dad and I counted the stumps they cut and found 174 16" or bigger and plus all the other damage should be well over the $5000 he said he was going to cut.The contract is very unprofessional looking and did have the statement,The seller agrees to sell all the usable timber(trees) 16" or larger on the property.Contracts of this kind should be outlawed,or better explained to the seller.Hope this letter will put the word out to your members and veiwers to very carefully read before signing any timber contract. I do have the name of the company if any one is interested and any help you can give would be greatly appreciated.Thanks Raymond

Furby

Wow, that's gotta hurt!
Sounds like a real scam game.


Oh, and Welcome!

Oldtimer

I hate to sound heartless, but if it says that in writing....why was it signed?

To me, 160 acres of hardwood that size and cut like that.....That should net the owner a very sizeable sum. Many times the $5000 agreed price. I would love to find such a lot here. I'd cut at a flat rate, and you'd recieve the balance.

Hope the situation is resolved with you being compensated at a fair rate.
My favorite things are 2 stroke powered....

My husky 372 and my '04 F-7 EFI....

Jeff

Raymond, please instant message me the name of the logger. Also here is the number for The Michigan Association of Timbermen. Call there and see what can be done.
tel: (800) 682-4979
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Ron Scott

Call the logging complaint 800 # that Jeff provided to report such logging practices.

Also contact an attorney familiar with timber law and a professional consulting forester to access your damages.

$5,000 for 160 acres if fully stocked is only $31.25/acre. A worst case would be around $300.00/acre.

Also 160 acres at a "minimum" harvest of 1500 bd ft/acre = 240MBF. Depending upon species, 240MBF @ an average price of $150.00/MBF = $36,000.

How many trees were cut in total?? You shouldn't agree to cutting more trees to compensate the threat of any breach of contract. How did $5,000 for your trees go to a claim of $25,000 in more trees to satisfy a $100,000 suit for contract breach? Were there any performance standards in the contract? At the least, best management practices should be expected by any landowner whether included or not.

Have your "all resources damage assessment" value the  damages to timber, soil, air, water, recreation, wildlife, roads, trails, aesthetics, etc. on your property.  

Also instant message me the name of the logger involved. I can provide you with the name of a consultant in that area that you might want to have look at your situation if you wish.


~Ron

Kirk_Allen

Ensure your attorney looks REAL hard at the Deceptive Trade Practice Act.


Furby

Hey Kirk, that's a new one for me, where can I find it?

Kirk_Allen

Furby,
I am on the road right now but will get some more info as soon as I get back in the office.

In fact, I might have some info this weekend after meeting with a gentleman in the Dallas area that may be using this Act in a lawsuit.  

Raymond, with 174 trees cut I would be measureing every stump to find one(1 is enough) that is less than 16" in diameter.  If you find 1 then the logger is in breech of contract thus opening him up for a suit as well.

Kirk

Kirk_Allen

This link will take you to a site with state info for applicable states.  Even though a state may not be outlined it does not mean that a legal argument from another state cannot be used to support a case.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uniform/vol7.html#dectr


This popped up for Delaware.  
§ 2532. Deceptive trade practices.

(a) A person engages in a deceptive trade practice when, in the course of a business, vocation, or occupation, that person:

(1) Passes off goods or services as those of another;

(2) Causes likelihood of confusion or of misunderstanding as to the source, sponsorship, approval, or certification of goods or services;

(3) Causes likelihood of confusion or of misunderstanding as to affiliation, connection, or association with, or certification by, another;

(4) Uses deceptive representations or designations of geographic origin in connection with goods or services;

(5) Represents that goods or services have sponsorship, approval, characteristics, ingredients, uses, benefits, or quantities that they do not have, or that a person has a sponsorship, approval, status, affiliation, or connection that the person does not have;

(6) Represents that goods are original or new if they are deteriorated, altered, reconditioned, reclaimed, used, or secondhand;

(7) Represents that goods or services are of a particular standard, quality, or grade, or that goods are of a particular style or model, if they are of another;

(8) Disparages the goods, services, or business of another by false or misleading representation of fact;

(9) Advertises goods or services with intent not to sell them as advertised;

(10) Advertises goods or services with intent not to supply reasonably expectable public demand, unless the advertisement discloses a limitation of quantity;

(11) Makes false or misleading statements of fact concerning the reasons for, existence of, or amounts of, price reductions; or

(12) Engages in any other conduct which similarly creates a likelihood of confusion or of misunderstanding.

(b) In order to prevail in an action under this chapter, a complainant need not prove competition between the parties or actual confusion or misunderstanding.

(c) This section does not affect unfair trade practices otherwise actionable at common law or under other statutes of this State. (6 Del. C. 1953, § 2532; 55 Del. Laws, c. 36; 70 Del. Laws, c. 186, § 1.)

§ 2533. Remedies.

(a) A person likely to be damaged by a deceptive trade practice of another may be granted an injunction against it under the principles of equity and on terms that the court considers reasonable. Proof of monetary damage, loss of profits, or intent to deceive, is not required. Relief granted for the copying of an article shall be limited to the prevention of confusion or misunderstanding as to source.

(b) The court in exceptional cases may award reasonable attorneys' fees to the prevailing party. Costs or attorneys' fees may be assessed against a defendant only if the court finds that defendant has wilfully engaged in a deceptive trade practice.

(c) The relief provided in this section is in addition to remedies otherwise available against the same conduct under the common law or other statutes of this State. If damages are awarded to the aggrieved party under the common law or other statutes of this State, such damages awarded shall be treble the amount of the actual damages proved.

(d) The Attorney General shall have standing to seek, on behalf of the State, any remedy enumerated in this section for any violation of § 2532 of this title that is likely to harm any person, including but not limited to individual retail purchasers and consumers of goods, services or merchandise.

(e) If a court of competent jurisdiction finds that any person has willfully violated this subchapter, upon petition to the court by the Attorney General in the original complaint or at any time following the court's finding of a willful violation, the person shall forfeit and pay to the State a civil penalty of not more than $10,000 for each violation. For purposes of this subchapter, a willful violation occurs when the person committing the violation knew or should have known that the conduct was of the nature prohibited by this subchapter. (6 Del. C. 1953, § 2533; 55 Del. Laws, c. 36; 57 Del. Laws, c. 499; 69 Del. Laws, c. 203, § 22; 70 Del. Laws, c. 186, § 1; 71 Del. Laws, c. 470, § 16.)



Kirk_Allen

OK, can you tell Im stuck in a hotel room with nothing better to do?

The more I research this the madder I get.

Raymond, fight this will all your might because your in the right..........based on what you have shared.


etat

Kirk, for ALL the members here I'm thanking you for providing this information.   The  snake deserves everything the legal system can throw at him!
Old Age and Treachery will outperform Youth and Inexperence. The thing is, getting older is starting to be painful.

Kirk_Allen

Thanks ck.

I went into the lobby of the hotel tonight and had a soda and some popcorn and got a chance to visit with an attorney if you can believe that.

I will try to express this guys concerns the best I can.  

A contract for $5000 that is breeched in no way can be twisted to $100,000. He said it sounded like the guy has done this before.  Its a ploy to scare the other party into thinking a $25,000 settlement is a good thing and better than taking the chance of losing $100,000.

He said that it borders on Extorsion and with the right attorney, you may be able to present it as such.  Judges dont tolerate people taking advantage of others ignorance and then using scare tactics to capitalize from those actions.  

FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!

Furby

Thanks Kirk!!!

Ya know I REALLY hate all that fine print in contracts. :-/

bryan

Wow,  I buy timber and guys like this are real bad news. I have seen some of their contracts and the contracts are almost always very small and some dont even have a contact # or address on them!But that said , loggers are mostly good guys. I always tell land owners to be careful, take your time. those trees didnt grow in one day.Think it over and if you need a foresters advice that is what they are there for,,I hate to see people prey on sick and older people,hope your Dad gets well.- Bryan

NewEnglandTreeSvc

If the best that guy could offer was $5k for all that, he needs to be set in his place, and HARD.

Guys like that give the rest a bad name- and frankly, WE'RE ALL SICK OF IT.

Git'r'done!

Erik Lovell, Arborist


Jeff

I wish Raymond would come back and update us. I sent him an email from the forum telling him this thread was updated.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Corley5

I was through Rogers City yesterday and thought about this thread and what had happened.  I think the logger in this instance should just be strung up >:(
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Kirk_Allen

All we can do is simply keep hammering the truth about good loggers and expose the bad ones.

Unfortunately it doesn't stop with the loggers.  I just met with a person who is being sued over some wood he purchased.  He was told it was Select and better and after looking at this stack of crap (can I say that?) I too would have refused paying for it.  This stuff was so full of knots it looked like #2 stuff I put in a pallet pile.

Since it was an out of state order the buyer took the guys word on the quality and the fact that he showed him several pics of good wood. Well now its going to the courts.  I know he doesn't have anything to worry about after looking at the wood because it is far from Select or better but just the hassle and expense of fighting in the courts can be overwhelming. We can only hope that the judge sets this seller in his place because this is not the first time this person has tried to sell something for what it wasn't!

Since I cant expose this persons name I will simply suggest that if your buying any wood out of Iowa I would suggest getting a Forestry Forum recommendation prior to agreeing too buy anything.  

GHRoberts

Kirk Allen ---

I had a "quality" problem with a guy in Iowa also.

Ron Scott

No update from Raymond yet? I hope things are going ok for him and his dad to resolve their issue.
~Ron

etat

Gotta, just absolutely gotta kick in one little thing here.

When I do  want to buy some walnut, It will be from a guy in Iowa. AND I would just his judgement completely.  Of course it would also be from a forum member.  and his wife!  :) :) :)

https://forestryforum.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=chainsaws;action=viewprofile;username=Norm_F%2E
Old Age and Treachery will outperform Youth and Inexperence. The thing is, getting older is starting to be painful.

Norm

Thanks for the vote of confidence CK. :)  I understand you folks not wanting to name names but it also gives the impression to watch out for anyone selling wood from Iowa.

SwampDonkey

The nerve of some people eh? Sounds like the tactics of some outfits I know here, I'll keep names out of it.  >:(  If I were presenting an owner with a contract, I wouldn't expect to move in on his lot untill at least two weeks. This allows me to have time for locating harvest trails and buffering watercourses, flagging existing lines (or surveying), preparing an operating plan and sending neighboring owners a letter of intent to harvest next to their lots. Then I would have to choose the right guy for the harvesting. Even guys I do cruises for don't move in on the lot for at least two weeks. Sounds like a real swindler with a bum deal for the owner. Hope everything works out for the owner(s). These folks are always targets, especially if they are in dire straights for $$ because of health care.

cheers

[edit] I forgot to add that this two weeks allows the owner to review the contract and when the operating plan is complete it could take a week or more to review and revise it also. Its the owner's land and he's the boss. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Paschale

This is a real tragedy, and makes the blood boil!  At the pig roast, I had a really long conversation with Ron Scott about the benefits of hiring a forester--I wish I could've transcribed what he talked about and share it with other people, because I was completely sold on the benefits of hiring a forester to draw up a comprehensive woodland management plan.  It's unfortunately too late for Raymond and his father,  :( but hopefully more people will be available to avoid this kind of tragedy with the info here on the forum.
 
My dad's gun-shy about having his land harvested, because the two times in the past that timber was cut by a couple of unscrupulous loggers, his mother was completely taken advantage of.  Thanks to the forum, and Ron in particular, the next time any timber is cut on our land it will be done the right way!  In the face of a tragedy like Raymond's, I just think it's encouraging to share that the message is getting out.  In fact, my dad and I just spoke about this today, and we're planning on calling the forester Ron recommended to begin drawing up a plan soon.
 
Raymond, fight the fight!  Know you're not alone, since this unfortunately seems to be an al too common thread here on the forum.  The good news is that you have the good folks here on the forum to give you some direction and some ammunition to fight this thing with.  I'm convinced there's a special place in you-know-where for people like these hucksters!    >:( >:( >:(  
 
 
Y'all can pronounce it "puh-SKOLLY"

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