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Big basswood?

Started by woodjunky, November 24, 2014, 03:26:03 PM

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woodjunky

I bought a few acres this fall with nice maple, white ash, basswood, and even some smaller black cherry. I was thrown off this winter when I looked up this winter and seen berries way up on the biggest basswood trees. But what might just have been bad memory, I could have sworn a few of these giant basswoods were giant maples when the leaves were on??? I am a rookie, but i know a maple leaf...... But theres the berries. So for now im just really bad at identifying:)

Now I was drooling over some massive black cherry logs  that were cut on the milling forum. I was told Black cherry doesnt get that big, and my tree's seemed to back that theory up.... Those giant cherry logs were not only bigger, but looked different. Old growth bark always has a different look that bark on what we call "mature trees" today...

My cherry trees i know i have dont produce berries? That fact threw me off the black cherry  trail right away, but despite no berries they are undoubtedly black cherry.....

The giant basswood on the other hand? They have berries. and they dont look like the leaf/berry combo of a basswood. No leaves and plenty of berries. Still believed they were basswood til recently I looked at the biggest tree on the property. a thick trunk that leans at a 45 degree angle. basswood berries on it. But the bark is smoother than usual. and the bark had a pinkish hue to it where the bark is thinnest... Thats the first time i thought maybe these were very big old growth gnarly black cherry trees from the U.P. of michigan. It was swampy in the old days before the farmers dug a ditch across the section to drain it some.......

These are before the leaves changed. I will get winter photos when my truck gets fixed. Im betting basswood, but am still wondering so worth it to ask the pro's.   

 

woodjunky

This is the picture i have with my wife to show its girth. she stumbled as i took it:) Its leaning away, so its i bit longer than it looks. big chunk. See the pinkish hue at all?

wdmn

Hi woodjunky, thanks for your post.

There's not much I can determine from that photo except that it looks like you have some sugar maple.

Trees do not always produce "mast" (or fruit) every year. This might explain why you're black cherries did not have "berries" as you called them (technically cherries are 'drupes' and not 'berries'... it's okay to just call them fruit).

Not quite sure about your basswood "berries" (also technically drupes); the fruit of Tilia americana only very superficially resemble cherries... they would likely have still been green at the time you took that photograph, maybe starting to turn brown:

http://woodyplants.wdfiles.com/local--files/tilia-americana/tilis_americana_fruit.JPG

Prunus serotina (black cherry) drupes would turn from yellowy/orange to red to black:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f0/Amerikaanse_vogelkers_bessen_Prunus_serotina.jpg

Also the fruit of the cherries would be ripening around June, whereas basswood fruit show up in late summer (in my parts) and persist into the early fall.

As for black cherry, it's usually not so big especially if it's competing with late-successional species like your sugar maple there (black cherry needs light; it's classified as shade intolerant, though I've seen it do pretty well in intermediate shade conditions). That said, a black cherry that has been out in the open for a good part of its life can get very large. I know one tree that's about 44 inches diameter at breast height (DBH)... it's about 70 years old and was grown out in the open... these trees are very valuable, also to the birds and other animals. If you like hunting or wildlife generally it's important to keep some good mast trees around.

that said, I'm just a greenhorn, so there are likely a lot of guys on here who could give you a lot better answers.

I hope that is a little bit helpful, please post again with more pictures if you can (if you're taking photos now when there are no leaves, some pictures of the buds will likely be more helpful than just the bark)...

woodjunky

I finally got my truck back and got the mill plowed out. Went and checked for deer sign in all the snow... Not a track besides a big bear...While I was out there back by the big mystery/basswoods. I looked at the berry or fruit or nut or what ever they are, through my scope. They are not connected to the leaf like basswood does... bare branches besides the berry things... Im speculating that if they were cherries, that some would not fall, like apples dont fall sometimes... because typically they would have fallen by now......... ???

As far as the fact Cherry doesnt compete against canopy trees like maple(shade intolerant)... My theory was that these large mystery trees were here before the maple. My maples seem to be a size smaller than some of these mystery trees... As I mentioned before too. looking on google earth the very back corner of my property touches a black looking washout looking area. It is mostly swamp that is surely a large spring, considering there are springs everywhere here. It also looks to be part of an older watershed from glacial run off or something.... The black section that touches the back of my property is dry, but guaranteed seasonal flooding when snow melts. Leads me to believe the whole watershed being saturated already from the spring, sheds alot of water every spring. Old farmers dug a drainage ditch across our section, dropping that water table to where the old swamp area is dry on my property....... All this is speculation. But 100 years ago im sure this was much swampier back there. and logging isnt fun in the mud:)

If you can read my timeline. The potential cherry trees could have been culls or too mucky to harvest when they logged it... Giving them the head start they needed to stay above the maples.... I will get canopy pictures soon. But i need to use my wifes camera, and i cant seem to remember it when i go.......

Any other northern hardwoods that have berry things like this? Im still skeptical they are black cherry. But im more skeptical they are basswood too now......... it is the new mystery tree. :)

curdog

How big is the fruit? I can't tell much from the picture, but could it be sycamore?  Wet, swampy areas are ideal ground for sycamore and they have round fruit. The bark sometimes has a pinkish tan color to it. Just a guess.

woodjunky

Nice thought on sycamore! The fruit is way up there. But i would say marble sized. a bit bigger than the basswood fruit. or drupes right wdmn?:) anyways. I looked up sycamore. The leaves seem right, and would explain why i thought they were maple leaves... But the bark doesnt look right, and the fruit is different. they like water, and are big, which mine seem to be... Never heard of them up here. Map says they arent up here but who knows.
ugh.
I need better pictures for you guys.... soon. :)

looking more. The fruit looks like sycamore fruit before it opens up...

wdmn

Hmm, are you in Ironwood Wisconsin woodjunky or somewhere in Michigan? If you're in Wisconsin or northern Michigan it's unlikely to be Sycamore, but who knows... We don't get them wild where I live. Also their fruit (neither a drupe nor a berry in this case!) is larger than a regular marble...

that said, you were looking at it through a scope so not a surprise if size is slightly off, and curdog has a point about the leaf shape and the bark:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_50QHD2597cM/SwyFxVrzd7I/AAAAAAAABkQ/wkCJxTCpbA8/s1600/5+Platanus+occidentalis,+Scott,+Ulmus+americana_11-6-2009_Cave+Spring,+Missouri.JPG

the tree on the left is a sycamore; when they get large the bark longer has the super distinctive mottled "camo" look at the base.

Do you remember when you first noticed the fruit (what time of year)?

And yes, if they were cherries they would be long gone by now.

Please do post pictures when you get a chance.

Jeff

I highly doubt Sycamore due to the area he is in. In fact I'd bet against it.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

woodjunky

I've lived up here most my life and dont remember any mention of sycamore..... But. It does explain how i mis-identified a maple leaf..... I mean, its like i time warped into the twilight zone... My new maple trees turned into basswood? and turned again into mystery trees now..... :P  What are these mystery nuts google!?!?!?!?
Going to be cold. But i am setting up the mill tomorrow. That will not be postponed.  I will get pictures. few of the new mill too.  oh man its been a long time coming.

Wdmn Im in Ironwood Mi which is 1.5hrs straight east right across the WI/MI border... My marble size estimate comes from my eyes alone. I have great eye sight, but they are just so high up there, no way to see detail. Through the scope they looked like they did with my eyes...only bigger. lol I couldnt really see anything different. little balls at the end of branches... lots of them. I didnt notice them until the leaves came off... ?tomorrow?

mesquite buckeye

If it is a sycamore the little balls should be like an inch or so in diameter. They are kind of fibrous and you can break them up and see the seeds and fluff inside. Looks like my sycamores in MO.  ;D
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

woodjunky

Mystery tree pictures :)


  

  

  

  

  

 

JohnW

That looks like silver maple

Jeff

Hard Maple and those are buds.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

curdog

Yep, definitely not sycamore.

wdmn

So they weren't drupes, berries, or any other kind of fruit! This make sense why the only became apparent after the leaves fell off.

I'm inclined to agree with JohnW on this one; the first four pictures look like silver maple, Acer saccharinum.

woodjunky

Makes sense they had maple leaves on them this summer too...... ::) Those buds threw me for a loop. Nope on the drupes, berries, fruit, or cherries. lol  Even zoomed in with our high powered lens they looked round. Wasnt until i zoomed in digital too, did i see the multiple buds forming balls... guys on the sawmill forum said maple right away also. Only they said red maple? The red maple buds have the same look of the red bud balls on my trees... Bark is similar too... Besides leaves, or shooting a bud out of the tree. any way to tell the two apart?

After reading a bit i see silver and red are cut and sold together as soft maple..... So apparently aint no matter

The big one at an angle is hollow. I know this because a good trail going to a hole. good size hole too. didnt care to find out who lives there:) my luck a badger or mad fisher or something.

Thanks alot guys!

WDH

You can tell sugar maple, red maple, and silver maple apart from the leafs. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Firewoodjoe

Low ground soft maple? Plan on a big heart. I've cut 30" telephone poles with a 26" heart. If u intend to saw that is. U mentioned mill. Good luck😊

woodjunky

Big heart hey? Some of the stumps on the big bunched up maples are huge. One in the back of property has 6 trunks coming out of a 6 or 7' diameter stump/rootball.  Hows a guy supposed to cross cut that? 4'bar and some jedi ninja skills? I got the skills just dont have the bar ;D.

I understand heartwood doesnt have the value the sapwood does, with hard Maple? Is that true with soft maple as well? Or am I wrong completely? lol

WDH

Most woodworkers prefer the maple to be bright white and do not want the heartwood.  Sometimes, the heartwood can be very beautiful, though. 



 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

mesquite buckeye

I'm thinking your defective maple is less boring. ;D 8) 8) 8) :snowball:
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

woodjunky

You know it WDH! Are those beauties soft maple?
Yep looking at some of these maples back there, I can only imagine. The soil is hard packed gravel bed thats half way to being a solid conglomerate. These rootballs are all over the place., and the soft maple is much straighter that the hard. diversify my straight board portfolio:)


WDH

Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

woodjunky

That red maple thread looks like a great time! Oh, to throw a log like that down, to make boards!?!?  Wow!

Clark

As others said, it's definitely soft maple. It can be difficult to distinguish between red and silver maple during the winter. If there is a river or creek nearby then chances are better that it is silver maple. If that is not the case then red is the better guess.

Some red maple have giant buds while others have large buds (both are larger than most other tree's buds). I have heard it hypothesized that red maple with giant buds are actually the female buds (trees) and those trees with the large buds are male buds (trees). No one that I know of has followed through and tested this.

For the dendrology sticklers (WDH!): According to the silvics manual red maple is "polygamo-dioecious". Some trees are male, some are female and some have both buds. First time I had heard of it...

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

WDH

Clark,

First time that I have heard of it too.  Nature abhors commonality. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

OH Boy

with the peeling bark I've gotta go with Silver Maple too. Older Red Maples get rougher bark on the trunk as they age, but usually not peeling like that. One way to tell Reds in the winter is the bark on the upper limbs is generally smooth gray like a younger tree. if you can see a decided change up top, probably Red Maple. if rough bark all the way up, Silver. If its an older tree and one side of the bark ridges is curling out, indication of a sugar maple. tap it.


woodjunky

There is water near by.... The Silver maple buds i seen from the pics were similar to red maple but not quite as red and not quite as rounded in their bunching...I will check the upper bark in the morning. we'll get to the bottom of this! Im hanging on to red maple theory... but the silver maple near water theory threatens that.... I just dont want to change my mind for the 8th time:)

WDH

You can tell them apart from the leaves. 

Red maple usually has 3 shallow cut lobes, and there are teeth between the lobes.

Silver maple usually has 5 deeply cut lobes with teeth between the lobes.

Sugar maple usually has 5 lobes, and there are no teeth between the lobes.

There may be some fallen leaves under the tree that are in good enough condition to allow you to positively ID this tree. 

Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

WmFritz

Quote from: WDH on December 07, 2014, 07:20:11 AM

There may be some fallen leaves under the tree that are in good enough condition to allow you to positively ID this tree.

I'll bet there is... right under da turty inches of snow that's fallen on top of them.  :)
~Bill

2012 Homebuilt Bandmill
1959 Detroit built Ferguson TO35

WmFritz

Btw, how many lobes are on the Canadian flag?   ;D
~Bill

2012 Homebuilt Bandmill
1959 Detroit built Ferguson TO35

SwampDonkey

Looks like red maple. Big buds on them are next years flower buds. Go out in spring before leaves and them things will be bloomed out in red.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

WDH

Quote from: WmFritz on December 07, 2014, 10:51:16 PM
Btw, how many lobes are on the Canadian flag?   ;D

5, and there are no teeth between the lobes.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

woodjunky

Yea turdy inches of compacted snow.... Melted down from the 5 feet we already got........ :-\
It is hiding all my Cherry burls I thought were culls. Since then i cut up a very rotten burl that was perfectly fine 1/2 to 1 inch in...

Clark

Quote from: woodjunky on December 07, 2014, 12:45:39 AM
There is water near by.... Tbut the silver maple near water theory threatens that.... I just dont want to change my mind for the 8th time:)

I should have been more specific. If you are in or near a flood plain then it is more likely to be silver maple. Red maple grows near water quite frequently, especially low spots in the landscape but it is less common in flood plains.

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

SwampDonkey

Up here, our silver maple is in river bottom and isands of the main river. Red maples grow up here in swamps, wetlands edges, to dry hardwood ridges. I've seen them in among the cattails when a cedar swamp is cut off. When the leaves turn color in fall in them gutted out swamps, it's the only thing that looks nice about it unless cattails and sedge is your thing.  ::) Takes a white cedar in those places 20 years to get to 6'.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

petefrom bearswamp

Kubota 8540 tractor, FEL bucket and forks, Farmi winch
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