Timber frame pricing & options

[logman]

You are looking at it the wrong way.  Who pays for your pickup and repairs if you are working for a company?  What happens if you break a leg when you are working for a company?  Look at my prices a different way.  What if I charged 25k for a white pine 24x36 instead of 15k.  How do I justify an extra 10k for 4 weeks of labor? Just because that is what everyone else charges.  If you are a consumer looking to buy a timber frame do you want to pay for the wood and labor or do you want to subsidize the companies fancy showroom, brochures, salesmen, etc.  I looked at one companies website and it listed about 7 or 8 guys all with letters after their names with job descriptions that denoted that none of them used a chisel.  How much do you think you are paying extra just to keep them employed?  I produce a good product and enjoy producing that product and charge what I believe is fair.  I grew up where Frank Perdue came from.  He ran a commercial saying "Don't ask why our chickens are so yellow, ask why theirs are so pale"  Sometimes I think I should put on my website, " Don't ask why my prices are so low, ask why theirs are so high".  I don't have slim margins I just don't have huge overhead.  I have a better overall situation.  I work for myself, work when I want, take what jobs I want and make more money than I've ever made working for someone else.  I just don't need to gouge to do it.  I'm surprised others haven't figured out the opportunity that is there.  As far as retirement goes, I am already set but plan to produce a couple frames a year until I can't or get tired of it.  Why retire if you love what you do.  I only dwelled on retirement when I worked for someone else. 

[Aikenback]

I'd do it for free. I'd even supply the timbers. Because I like to stay busy and don't need the money. :D

[Dave Shepard]

So, you are set for retirement? What about someone in this business who isn't set for retirement from some other source?

You have low overhead, that's great, some shops do not. Some shops need to hire engineers and architects, even if only on a per job basis. Those initials after the names come with a price tag. I can guarantee that you won't operate on your margins around here. I don't think there is a building lot in my town under $100k, and that is for a few acres of questionably buildable land. Around here, the materials for a Sobon shed would cost about $1,500, plus delivery, for the 1,700 feet of pine. That doesn't leave much for your 50 hours of labor and overhead.

[logman]

I guarantee I could work on the same margin where you are.  I use engineers and designers also and if you look at my website you'll see that is extra.  What do building lots have to do with cutting frames? 
I realize shops have overhead and I never suggested that they slash their prices to bare bones, just that I believe there is room to reduce prices.  Why do you think that someone working for a timber frame company at say 20.00 or so per hour can make a living but someone cutting frames for 30.00+ per hour can't?  Maybe the shops up there pay more than that but that is what you make here working for a company. 

[timberwrestler]

I've tried to stay out of this, but I just can't resist any longer. 

Logman, maybe there's a reason why your prices are lower than anyone and everyone else's.  Either you're right, and they're all wrong, or...
With your discussion of your retirement being taken care of, I could make the assumption that this all a hobby for you.  Dave and Brad are right about the potential to lose it all by not planning for unexpected business expenses.  Do you carry general liability insurance?  How about worker's compensation insurance?  How about all the guys that come out to help during the raising?  No one comes on my site without WC.  Workers without WC are a liability to the client and my company, and it's against state labor laws.

And it's insane to state that you could work for the same money anywhere in the country.  Beyond the cost of living, there's material prices, labor prices, WC rates, state and local tax rates, engineering requirements, permit fees, and so on.  In Massachusetts, they're crazy about subcontractor misclassification--essentially if you're a carpenter or TFer, you cannot hire another carpenter as a sub, they have to be an employee.  That adds about 40% to their labor burden right there.  The WC rate is NY state is about twice what it it is Mass.  In NJ or NYC you'd have union guys slashing your tires and shutting the job down.  It's a big country...

I think that as some limited details have emerged, the price seems a little steep, but maybe he has a good reason for it.  I'm going to speculate here, and guess that the drawing is pretty simple because the OP didn't pay for design. 

A timber framer that I know was slow, went up and interviewed at VTF (the new competition for the OP) a few years ago.  At the time they were offering something like $8.25/hr to touch up after the Hundegger (the CNC timber cutter).  On the drive home, the billboard outside the local Dunkin Donuts advertised looking for help for $9.25/hr.  I have no beef with Hundeggers and efficiency, but I do have a problem with de-valueing workers, the trades in general, and this industry in particular.  Shopping like this is Walmart vs Best Buy is not the right direction for someone wanting to build a HOME (that is, more than a real estate investment; where you raise your children, cook meals with your family, grow old..).

[logman]

What does my retirement have to do with anything.  I am not independently wealthy and I still have to make a living.  I do not do this as a hobby.  Using Dave Shepards figures I should make 70.00 per hour cutting a 12x16 frame.  I guess that is fine if I went to law or medical school before I became a timber framer.  Yes, I carry insurance, it is a very small part of my overhead.  I guarantee I could go to anywhere in the country (except maybe Hawaii) and cut frames close to what I do now.  I am no threat to you guys, why are you taking it as such.  I only cut a few frames a year and have to turn down more work than I take on.  Raisings have nothing to do with what we are talking about, I could sub out my raisings if I wanted.  How am I devaluing the timber frame industry?  I started out saying I believed if prices were lower more people would be able to afford them.  Don't you agree that would be a win-win for the timber frame industry?  So I guess I need to raise my prices just because everyone else's are high.   

[Piston]

Logman,
I give you credit for standing up for what you believe.  To me, I get the impression that you are doing what you enjoy doing, for a price that works for you (in your specific situation), that you care about the reasons you charge what you charge, and that you legitimately care about the craft-as well as spreading the craft to others. 

I think we are all here for the same reasons, to expand on our knowledge of timber framing, ask some questions, answer some questions, and have a good time doing it. 

Guys,
If it works for him, then what's the big deal? 

I'll admit, that when Logman first posted about this, I was doubting that he could make it work.  But, after hearing him out, keeping an open mind, and realizing that he is happy working for his hourly average, then I don't see any reason to doubt him.  I couldn't live the way I do off of those wages, but then again, I'm not him.   ;D

Sounds to me like he has situation under control, has crunched some numbers, and is happy with what he's doing.  I give him credit for making it work. 

I started out saying I believed if prices were lower more people would be able to afford them.  Don't you agree that would be a win-win for the timber frame industry? 

Abso-freaking-lutely 



My vote is to agree that pricing varies in every situation, what works for some, can't work for others.

I believe that we are all in agreement regarding the original post, that pricing for said frame, is probably on the high side.   smiley_contract_point
   

[Dave Shepard]

The point I am trying to make is that what works in one locale, doesn't necessarily work somewhere else. The Northeast can be an expensive place to live and work. If you have a business model that works for you, that is fine, I'm not trying to change you, but I am trying to take a stand for the people that you consider to be price gouging. Your business model is not sustainable in my region without a subsidizing outside income. Around here, you would most likely have to own a commercial piece of property to run the mill and have a workshop. That alone moves you into the very high overhead bracket. How am I supposed to compete with you with $500,000 or more of overhead? It's great that you have set yourself up in your backyard, or wherever you are, but to hold other businesses to that standard is not reasonable. You are basically saying that if someone has a different business model, whether by choice, or necessity, that they are gouging, and that isn't fair. We all have to sit down with a calculator and figure out what it costs to make the business work. If the market won't bear that, then we go out of business. If we work too cheaply, we go out of business.

It's good that you have a situation that is working for you, but please don't say that everyone that charges more than you is overpriced or is gouging.

[Dave Shepard]

I hope I'm not causing any hard feelings with this discussion, I'm just trying to paint a picture from a different perspective.

[D L Bahler]

I'm in a unique position where timber framing is not my only business. In fact, I have a number of other sources of income. This allows me to focus on things from a perspective similar to Logman. I can do things for cheap rates, making a good hourly rate off of my frames, log shells, etc. but not having to worry about those things financing my retirement (and I'm young, so unlike others here there is, Lord willing, a great deal of future to look out for). I have another business that exists for that reason.

My own structure is, I do construction type work (actually right now I am helping a friend with some non timber work because he needed some temporary help and since he is a friend I am glad to) between my other responsibilities, but to finance my future I have started a cheese making business. My responsibilities there, when all is set up as I plan, will consist mostly of making the cheese. managing the store, sales, etc. will be handled by employees. So I can spend my mornings making cheese and my afternoons cutting frames. For me, it is a very good model. It essentially removes a lot of the large concerns from my Log and Timber business. I don't have to worry about making a killing off of log and timber, because there is a lot of money in cheese. It allows me to pursue log and timber more purely than I would be able to were I dedicated to it as an all-out for-the-money business.
But I wouldn't advocate my model to most other, because I realize from the start that it does not work by itself. 

[milkie62]

Whoa everybody slow down here. The plans I have shown were preliminary 1st meeting with the builder. I have seen the builders work and it is very good since they have done some high profile commercial jobs. What I meant by basic was no fancy curved arches and such. Just a basic "A" type frame. I know that quality work commands pricing accordingly. The builder is low tech who works out a an insulated vinyl type carport building but is equipped with all necessary tools for the work. I know tools so I now what I was looking at. Not looking at starting any battles but when I looked at a website of a builder it seemed like I could get an entire house timber framed for what we were only getting a portion of from our plans. The plans the builder made were thrown at my daughter to get her to thinking what she really wants. Thanks though to all that are commenting and looking for all future comments here. Ed

[bigshow]

Opinion to follow, facts come separate:
I guess I'm surprised at the lack of inspiration even at the the rudimentary level.

[Peter Drouin]

 I think it all depends on where you do business.
Here is a 26' 8"x 10" what would you pay for it? What is it worth It's W Pine. I think the prices will be all over.

  

  

 

[Knot_Head]

It's good that you have a situation that is working for you, but please don't say that everyone that charges more than you is overpriced or is gouging.

Exactly. 

[milkie62]

I would think for premium length around $205

[Dave Shepard]

$346.60.

[Peter Drouin]

$346.60.

8)
I did pay $85.oo for the log and I cut it in 35 minutes . :D :D :D :D With over 100BF of over run.

[milkie62]

My original guess was $104. but I figured you were paying for waste and premium length which brought me up to the $205.

[Peter Drouin]

My original guess was $104.but I figured you were paying for waste and premium length which brought me up to the $205.

I cut the 26' one by into 12' 6" When you order a log to get a beam out of it you want not to get too big a log, :D :D :D
All the 4 I got are 14 to 16" top end not too much overrun that way. :D :D :D

[logman]

It's good that you have a situation that is working for you, but please don't say that everyone that charges more than you is overpriced or is gouging.

Exactly. 

Never said that.  There are companies that I believe charge fair prices and they are in the Northeast.

[Brad_bb]

I started out saying I believed if prices were lower more people would be able to afford them.  Don't you agree that would be a win-win for the timber frame industry? 

I think this is what's really tweaking people.  This wording implies several things.  That other company's pricing is arbitrary.  That they can elect to raise or lower at will.  That pricing is not based on costing with a reasonable margin, but more on what profit they want to make. This statement seems to assign motive to others (that they are charging other than a fair price, that they are gouging).   That is not a fair accusation.

I'm sure if frames only cost $1, a lot more people would be able to afford them.  But just like you can't dictate that frames cost $1, you can't say that someone's quote for $40K is gouging because you'd only charge $20.  You can't say that because you don't know the costs of another shop.  If enough people were charging half the cost(assuming same material and quality of work), the higher company would either have to come down, go out of business if they could not make a profit, or find a way to lower their costs.  That is the market.  But it just doesn't seem like you think anyone charging more than you, is reasonable, cost based, or fair.  That is the implication from that statement.  We cannot dictate anyone's price, the government certainly cannot do that either.  Only the market place can do that- "the invisible hand" at work.  It does work. 

I just realized that this is the same argument against minimum wage.  There you have a situation where government arbitrarily raises price(wage/cost of worker).  The result is some get an increase where the market will bear it, but conversely it also eliminates many entry level jobs where the market won't bear it.  And that's a terrible loss for a society because it reduces opportunity for upward mobility.  Some people have a hard time accepting this concept.  People will always act in their own self interest.  Some mislabel it greed, but it's actually human nature.  Everyone acts in their own self interest.  The governor on that is the free marketplace.  The late renowned economist Milton Friedman spent much of his life educating people about this very thing.  One of my favorite youtube videos is Milton Freidman on the Phil Donahue show called "What is Greed".  It's worth watching if you've never seen it. At the 21 minute mark they directly address greed, and at 38 minutes the minimum wage.

[logman]

Listen, all I wanted to say from the beginning is that if timber framing is ever going to grow beyond the wealthy being able to afford them prices need to come down.  I never said shops are gouging, if you are charging what you need to keep the lights on then you are not gouging but that doesn't mean you are not overpriced.  I have heard a lot of whining in the past about hand crafters not being able to compete against machine cut frames.  I can beat their prices all day long.  If anyone cares about keeping the tradition of hand crafted frames around you will have to change something to make that happen.  One of the ways is price, but you aren't going to do it by having the same overhead that they do.  If nothing else I hope this inspires some ambitious timber framers to go out and produce frames similar to the way I do.  It almost sounds like the op has found someone like that.  I'd like to clear up another misconception that seems to be coming out of these posts.  I am not working for chump change doing this.  There is a huge potential out there to make a nice living doing something you love.  Using a standard (yes Brad there is a standard frame, at least in my mind) queen post white pine 24x36 as an example since I am very familiar with that frame I will show you the potential.  The timbers for that frame along with the pegs, tax, delivery come to around 7500.00.  I charge 15,550 for a band sawn frame and if you go by my website 18,140 for planed timbers.  Actually I usually price out planed at 15,550 because I still make enough off it.  We will use the 18,000 price.  I can cut that frame in 4 weeks.  If I sub out my raisings and just stay home and cut frames I could cut 12 of those in a year.  Do the math on that and deduct what you think you would need to operate and the rest is for your labor.  Does that sound like chump change to you?  Now if I can do that why can't other companies do even better by raising the price a little more.  Now, I don't have a clue as to whether there would be a demand to keep it all going but I guess we will never find out. 

[D L Bahler]

I am going to insert myself as the middle man in this debate, not feeling I have a loyalty to either side of things. In some ways, I understand Logman's sympathies, but at the same time I do not believe timber framers are gouging anyone.

Like many have said, it is simple economics. You use price as a means to dictate where you stand in the market. Maybe many timber framers are charging high rates not because they are ripping people off but because those prices reflect the sort of work they want to be doing, or rather the sort of work they are doing. Were they to lower the price of their work, the economic niche that they would then find themselves in would be much different. I think many times, framers would find themselves working for a much different clientele.
In our system -capitalism- where there is no body fixing the rates we set for our work (that would be mercantilism) we use market factors to determine our price. NOT expenses, costs, etc. Yes, expenses form the baseline, but then we go up from there if the market will bear it. Is that gouging? No. Why should it be considered gouging to get out of your product what people are quite readily willing to pay for it?

BUT, let's expand the scenario a bit. I personally am in a position where I would like to do timber framing for things other than ultra-fancy homes and farms. What does that mean? It means I have to set my prices considerably lower so that my target market will bear it. But it also means that in order to survive I must trim the fat, make my process efficient so that I can set lower prices and still make a suitable profit.
Me using that approach is NOT suggesting that other framers are overpriced. Not by a long shot. We are simply targeting different markets.
And for the record, I'll do upper level work to -but I adjust my prices accordingly.

So again, setting your prices establishes what part of the market you want to sit in. It's not gouging. It's not dishonest. It's business. It's foolish, actually, to have a business and not charge what your product is WORTH. But value is entirely relative. The value of Logman's work is different than Dave's, not because one is superior but because of the place in each one's market that he occupies.
Dave's work is worth every penny he gets for it. How do I know that? because people are paying for it.