What have I gotten myself into?

[FarmingSawyer]

I was called to come look at 20 cedars the owners were giving away, rather than having a tree company chip them.... I suspect they had sticker shock at the cost of the service for clearing the storm damage.

What I found was a mile long driveway with significant storm debris and many fallen trees--spruces, cedars and some hemlock. All free for the taking....... and then the couple asked me if I wanted all the standing cedars on either side of the road for 10 feet in each direction, along the whole length...... and they'd like the debris cleaned up as well.....

The way I left it is that I would remove the trees and saw them to sel, including a small order of cedar for their raised beds--sawn for free. They would pay me to chip the storm debris and limbs from the felled trees.......

Am I insane? Does this sound like an okay deal? There is easily 10,000 feet of cedar. One of the hemlocks will probably scale at 1200bf and then there are many spruces both downed and to be felled. And the cedar is NICE...... 8) much of the butt logs are clear and they are tall. I'm feeling like this is a good deal, with a spelled out agreement with the landowners. But there is also part of me saying this might be a way to starve......

They've had several tree services in there telling them the cedar is worthless--it'll all need to be chipped....... and they've had 2 loggers refuse to take the job because it is too small....... I'm estimating it will take me a couple of days to bunch the storm damaged trees and make piles for chipping, with 2 days of chipping. Probably a week to fell the trees and bunch them along the road to be hauled and another 3 or 4 days to do the chipping....... I have yet to figure out how to haul all the wood.....this is beyond parbuckling onto a borrowed flatbed, or tossing into my horse trailer...... It's at least a pulp truck worth, probably 2 or 3 if I take the whole length of the cedars and everything down to 6" on the spruce and hemlock.......

:
I must be crazy..... but I think this is a great idea.... and to keep from feeling the pangs of hunger with no power and creditors calling I can go out and mill cedar all day long in -12 weather........ :D

[beenthere]

and they'd like the debris cleaned up as well.....

This may be the only clinker, but suggest you get the definition of "cleaned up" clearly spelled out.
i.e. no raking, no landscape patching, no stump removal, etc. whatever you  want to do to satisfy you and them.

But also sounds like you are not equipped to remove the logs, so should figure that out too.

Good luck.

[dgdrls]

Put it all down in writing and both parties agree, they and you sign-off, they get a copy. Take before and after photos.
Agree with Beenthere, 100%  clean-up does not mean manicured and re-landscaped.

best
DGDrls

[drobertson]

If that's all you have to do at this time, well I reckon so, not too crazy, debris removal can become quite involved.
I guess having a good system and flow would help, but have to admit, debris cleaning is/or can be a chore.  Very time consuming.

[GDinMaine]

Do you have a tractor to help push the debris into piles and help yard logs?  Even if you have to feed the chipper by hand the piling of the brush will be a real bother. 
According to your time estimate you would be working there for at least 10-12 days and in reality this kind of stuff always takes longer. Are you prepared to spend - say - three weeks on this? Very good idea to agree on what "cleaning up" means to you and to the property owner.

Probably a lot of people are in quite a fix around here these days, with all that storm damage and debris.

[FarmingSawyer]

I left it, and will re-clarify, that the cleanup only involved the limbs, branches and tops--anything which would be chipped. I will strengthen this when I formalize it in writing to make sure they understand that I am not parking out their driveway...although, since I am getting paid for that portion of the deal, they can ask what they want......

I have a tractor, but this is strictly a low-impact deal. They liked the idea that I could bring horses in if I needed them to yard logs around. And it is understood that I will be doing this work in and around the weather and my current paying jobs...which are also weather dependent......  I've done this sort of work before...chipping and brush removal, etc...and danger tree removal and logging......I've just never put the two together in one job, where the clean up basically funds the logging...until I can add the third element.....sawing or selling the logs (or at least the ones I don't keep for my own inventory).

In addition to this job I also have some other "free" trees to saw and remove.....and I've put my hat in the ring to salvage some really big maples....... This is what happens to me when there is a lull in the milling..... with quotes out there which should have had me sawing into mid-december for cash I'm not sure what's going to happen on this one.....

I'm really wishing I had access to a pulp loader about now...... going to have to make some calls 1st thing next week to see if I can line up somebody to haul for me.....and figure out how to pay for it.....

[Foxtrapper]

Sounds like an opportunity to make some money.  Wish we had that around here.  I say good deal, and have some fun with it..

[drobertson]

Sounds like a plan is in motion,  Not having a dead line is a good thing in a deal like this, with one small draw back, at least if I were doing it, these types of jobs seems to linger on longer than planned.  But Free, relatively speaking is a good thing,  if the end product is marketable.. hope it all works out for you,

[Southside]

The only think that stands out to me at this point that could hurt you is getting 10,000 ft onto a pulp truck.  I think you are looking at a couple of trips at least if there is that much wood there, just plan for that expense is all.  Are you sure the ceder is sound?  Could you cut down a representative tree before agreeing to this?  Hate to see you end up with a big pile of kindling wood. 

[FarmingSawyer]

The only think that stands out to me at this point that could hurt you is getting 10,000 ft onto a pulp truck.  I think you are looking at a couple of trips at least if there is that much wood there, just plan for that expense is all.  Are you sure the ceder is sound?  Could you cut down a representative tree before agreeing to this?  Hate to see you end up with a big pile of kindling wood.

The trucking is certainly going to be an issue. I've got to call around to find someone who has the time, is hungry, and local to haul for me. Last time I had 10 cords of tree length delivered it was $100. If I can get that same deal I'd figure it'd be ok.

As for soundness..... I looked at the trees which were snapped off 8 feet up....and some other ones which were split by the snow load/ wind.  The looked sound enough on the inside, and if they broke then the ones still standing have a good chance of being sound too. I also figure the top 12 feet of every tree from 2" down to 4" is worth roughly $3 as fence posts. Some of the trees branch out 16- 20feet up and have multiple tops making them $9 trees..... There is some salvation in this fact. I may end up only working for minimum wage during the harvesting, but 1) I'll be working and 2) I'll be in the woods doing something I love. Once the logs are at the mill--and I'll probably sell off the higher grade logs to Dewey or a shingle mill--then I can value-add the wood I mill from them. Cedar Bird & Bat houses ought to be just right for the spring. As well as some live-edge picnic tables, planter boxes, etc......

It is possible this property is in a very narrow, coastal band, which has pockets of Atlantic White Cedar, instead of Northern White Cedar. I didn't think to check the needle and identify. I'm not sure I could at a glance. I might have to call in a friend. I'm not sure of the difference between the two lumber quality-wise, but I've heard the Atlantic White--which is very rare, except in pockets in the area I'd be working in--is very brittle. My book doesn't suggest uses other than shavings.

[FarmingSawyer]

Some photos of a few of the downed trees.....



  
These standing cedars come down too.....


 
Fence Post material.....


 


  
These downed Spruce will make 6x6's....


  

[thecfarm]

I think you might need a certain blade degree to cut spruce. A regular 10° on my mill did not work. My cedar looks good too at 8 feet. It's just the 8 feet before that is rotted hearted.  :(

[red oaks lumber]

my experiance with "blow down". the fibers are stretches and compressed which means after the lumber is dry it just starts falling apart. even if its up rooted. every year i document where wind damage has occured and make sure i don't buy wood anywhere near the area.
think hard before procceding :)good luck

[FarmingSawyer]

my experiance with "blow down". the fibers are stretches and compressed which means after the lumber is dry it just starts falling apart. even if its up rooted. every year i document where wind damage has occured and make sure i don't buy wood anywhere near the area.
think hard before procceding :)good luck

Hmmm.... not sure about this. Mileage may very. I've always had great luck harvesting blow down. The mill I learned sawing and logging at did 98% blow down harvesting of Doug Firs and WRC. Built my 1st house out of blow down fir. Never had a problem.

[terrifictimbersllc]

I think you might need a certain blade degree to cut spruce. A regular 10° on my mill did not work. My cedar looks good too at 8 feet. It's just the 8 feet before that is rotted hearted.  :(

My go to spruce blade is 7 degree with about 35 thousandths set. Doesn't work as well though if spruce is frozen. In that case 4 degree with 25 thousandths set.  I believe a 10 degree with high set ought to work well for non-frozen spruce too.  Narrower spruce is much easier to keep flat than wider.

[Barney II]

I got involved with some of the blow down a few years ago when our area got hit really hard with wind and blow downs and snap offs.  Thankfully it didn't cost me too much, but was a super great lesson about using  wind damaged trees--bad part was I knew better. I would double what Red Oaks has said.     My thought only------leave this stuff for the chippers .   Good luck in what your doing----just be real careful.    Don

[FarmingSawyer]

I got involved with some of the blow down a few years ago when our area got hit really hard with wind and blow downs and snap offs.  Thankfully it didn't cost me too much, but was a super great lesson about using  wind damaged trees--bad part was I knew better. I would double what Red Oaks has said.     My thought only------leave this stuff for the chippers .   Good luck in what your doing----just be real careful.    Don

Fortunately the blow down is only 10% of this job and is the entry point into the rest of the wood........ Clearing off the blow down and providing the owners with some raised bed lumber and showing them that the trees aren't going to waste....or costing them anything to dispose of...is allowing me to harvest a significant quantity of quality logs for free with some paid work on the back end chipping the brush.......

[Cedarman]

Farming Sawyer, you mentioned planks for raised garden beds.  What actual size and what can you get for those planks in your area?  Want to compare to what we get and what people want in our area.

[Leigh Family Farm]

This sounds like a great opportunity to me if you can secure the truck to haul the 10K ft of cedar away. You mentioned that this job would be done around other paying jobs and the weather. With being said, I would clearly state in the contract that the potential end date could be months away. What I would hate to see is that the job takes 10 weeks (weather, holidays, other jobs, etc.) and the customer gets *pithed/refuses to pay because of lateness. Whatever you decide, keep us updated and how it goes. Good Luck!

[beenthere]

Want to compare to what we get and what people want in our area.

What do you get and what do people want in your area? Just curious....

[FarmingSawyer]

Want to compare to what we get and what people want in our area.

What do you get and what do people want in your area? Just curious....

I forgot to ask Dewey what he charges for his wood......  5/4 x 6" EWC is sold by the LF at one place for $1.44....... So an 8ft would cost $11.52 divided by the 5 bf in the board = around $2.30/bf......A 1x8 is almost $2/LF. And the stuff is sold Random Length up to 8foot. So good luck finding 10, 12 or 16 footers...They could earn a premium.
I wouldn't hesitate to charge $2/bf rough sawn for tight knot 8's....
As for what people around here want.....Anything. Decking mostly. But quite a bit of siding and planter box type stuff.

[FarmingSawyer]

Got the job! Phone call came an hour ago and made plans to head over there to begin ASAP......On my way home to change vehicles and have lunch, though, I got a call I've been waiting for all week...... go salvage and mill 1000bf of big pine. So.....quick shift gears and head for the paying job. I'll begin the cedar salvage on the weekend.

[FarmingSawyer]

Worked my urban logging job--large pines which fell on a home....I'll be milling them tomorrow.... Then headed over to the cedar grove for 2hrs before dark.
If I can keep up this pace on the cedars, I'll be doing great. I was able to free up $38 worth of fence posts....probably more because I only started tallying towards the end. And I wracked up 6 6"x8ft solid logs. they're clear, but still, figure .20/bf stumpage value, so another $16. Now I also freed up a lot more cedar, there are several large logs there and some split butt logs, and a pile of kindling bolts....... And I trimmed and stacked brush. So, assuming I can sell the fence posts--which I can. And assuming the 8's cut good, and they should.....I made $27/hr today. I'm trying to keep organized as I go, like cutting the fence posts to 5, 6 & 8ft lengths as I top the trees. And stacking everything I can carry for quick loading....Even if I make a bit less, it sure beats working at Home Depot.......

Before:


 

After:


 


 

[Nate379]

Your photos are all upside diwn.

[FarmingSawyer]

Your photos are all upside diwn.

Odd....they're showing the right way round here.....