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Thinking about buying a sawmill, would like some help.

Started by levisthered, November 18, 2014, 09:29:17 AM

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levisthered

Ok so here goes, My name is Levi. I am from western Kansas, well the eastern edge of western Kansas. I have been thinking about getting myself a sawmill for a while. I have been looking really hard at the woodland mills machine, mostly because of the price and that I don't want to do this full time. Farming is my full time job, dad has a cabinet shop that he runs through the winter so I have some woodworking experience. What I want to do with this mill is take dead and dying trees from our property and from around the area, use them for jobs that we might get should the customer want local wood and sell wood to people that might want it. There are several custom cabinet shops within an hour of me and 3 large pallet manufactures also within an hour to an hour and a half possibly more that I don't know about. Pallets are a big deal around here due to the beef packing industry. The most prevalent species around are cottonwood, Siberian elm, American elm, ash, I think green ash but not sure, hackberry, eastern red cedar, and black locust. Less common but still present are black walnut, various oaks, ponderosa pines, I think from people digging them up in Colorado and bringing them home from vacation I have one in my yard right now, but he is safe, catalpa and Russian olive. That is about it but I'm sure I'm leaving some out. I have read about elm being a diamond in the rough as far as tough nice looking lumber. I admit I have never worked with it but pictures of it look nice after it has been finished. do you guys think I'm being crazy for thinking about this or does the idea have some merit.
thanks Levi 

tule peak timber

Hi Levi, Lots of experience here on this site from which to draw.Asking is good before you invest , and you will likely get some different view points in response. The fact that you have some experience with wood is great,  and secondly that  you are thinking about where your product may go before you start investing is good. Cheers  Rob
persistence personified - never let up , never let down

drobertson

Howdy Levi,, and your question has merit for certain.  There a numerous Woodland mills owned by Forum members, and it seems they are worthy of a good look.   Since you do farm, I suppose you have some equipment for handling the logs and such. So, If the money is there, and you have at least one direction to go with the beginning of the product it seems like the thing to do,  hope you find success in whatever your decision.  I'm pretty certain you would not have regrets so long as there is little debt. 
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

beenthere

Also, welcome to the Forestry Forum.
Your idea has a lot of merit, and wish you well in pursuing your ideas.
Are there other small bandmills close by where you may observe or even offer to help out?

Some "hands on" experience will help you decide if collecting, moving, lifting, sawing, stacking for air drying, etc. is what you want to do. It is fun to saw logs and see the beauty in the lumber within the logs. The work comes when storing the product of the saw and caring for the wood after it comes from the log.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Magicman

Good Morning Levi, and Welcome to the Forestry Forum.   8)
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

goose63

Welcome to the forum Levi for the price the woodland mill is a good one

  

  you can cut a lot of lumber with it but not like the big boys. wish winter would od held off I like running mine
goose
if you find your self in a deep hole stop digging
saw logs all day what do you get lots of lumber and a day older
thank you to all the vets

Chuck White

~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

levisthered

Some more info about my idea. This is my biggest obstacle when I talk to my wife about a mill she who must be obeyed produces a cat from her posterior. But and here is my eternal optimism she is less inclined to now than when I first brought it up ;D so there is hope. she is very frugal and conservative and wants to see what it can produce financially instead of looking like a big green pile of hundred dollar bills burning in the back yard. So could someone tell me about what I could get for pallet lumber, cottonwood, ash, and elm sawn 4/4 for wood workers. I think if I could show her some real figures if they look right she would open up to the idea more.  Me I think it will work because I feel it in my gut that it will, my wife will tell you that my gut makes her vary nervous and I have no idea why. Dad also had a good question, because I would be cutting mostly dead wood will that be harder on the blades. Another thing I was wondering about would be buying logs from tree services around most all of them cut their wood up for fire wood as there are no mills that I can think of within a long ways. What would be fair market price for logs. I think of a lot of things to ask and then when I get sat down at the computer 75% of them float away, So that's all for now thanks again.
Levi

drobertson

Man, I checked your location,  and can say, it's been a long time since I've covered those grounds.  We had family reunions all around the cold water and a little further west.  Bout all I can add to your thoughts is you may need to find a niche in barn, fence, shed and other types of repair and replacements.   The amount of volume needed for pallets is high,  where having stock for farmers to repair or build my be of some benefit.  You will have to put out feelers to see what the main need might be.  I'm not sure of the cost of the mill you are looking at, but I'm sure you won't make any money from it if you don't have it. Flip side, if you have it, and no one around does, and you have some timber(logs) to saw, well then there you go, you may be sitting on something like you are thinking. 
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

thecfarm

Need any sheds,garage or whatever built?? I cut the trees on my land and have built a few out buildings. The mill is paid for and than some.  ;D
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Gideon_70

Quote from: beenthere on November 18, 2014, 10:15:12 AM
Also, welcome to the Forestry Forum.
Your idea has a lot of merit, and wish you well in pursuing your ideas.
Are there other small bandmills close by where you may observe or even offer to help out?

Some "hands on" experience will help you decide if collecting, moving, lifting, sawing, stacking for air drying, etc. is what you want to do. It is fun to saw logs and see the beauty in the lumber within the logs. The work comes when storing the product of the saw and caring for the wood after it comes from the log.

U 'haint kidding!  I own a harbor freight mill, which is a woodland clone, and I got them mill, no prob.  I set it up, no prob.  I cut lotsa lumber, no problem.  I stacked the lumber up, nice and neat.  Then, it rained.  And rained.  And rained.  And rained.  And my pretty stack of lumber was disgusting looking.  It was also sinking into the ground.

I bought my mill, then built a log arch to move the logs around, then had to buy an old cub cadet to pull the log arch because, well, logs are heavy.  Then, I had to buy a trailer to put the logs on and figure out how to get the logs from the arch to the trailer.  Then from the trailer to the mill.  I bought some decent peavies, and made some changes to my arch, then built another arch for the little stuff, and.... well, you get the picture.  Now, I can handle, cut and stack logs under my new shelter, and even sell some of the wood if I want to.  Sadly, I no longer have a back yard because it's a logging camp.  Laughing, I feel like I'm cutting landing again when I need to go to my shop building.

So, some advice?  Talk to us.  Get ideas.  Get a good idea on what you'll need to do the complete job, not just the cutting part.  Get a list of the equipment you'll need, and the equipment you want, and take your time. 

Just my 2c
You cannot reduce crime by disarming the victims!

mad murdock

Welcome Levi! I don't think that trying to compete with big mills and pallet wood will be helpful. As stated previously, it takes volume and milling capacity to pay playing that game. Maybe take a close look in your region to see if there are other "mobile sawyers" or smaller mills around to not only get a very good idea of operational functionality, but also a chance to get real numbers of what sawn products are worth in your area.
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

dboyt

Quote from: thecfarm on November 18, 2014, 08:56:47 PM
Need any sheds,garage or whatever built?? I cut the trees on my land and have built a few out buildings. The mill is paid for and than some.  ;D

I agree with Cfarm on that!

Custom pallets that the big boys don't want to mess with might be a good niche.  Also crane matting and blocking, if there is gas/oil in your area.  If you are thinking cabinet wood, you'll need to have a way to kiln dry it, too.  As for tree services, I get most of my urban logs free for picking them up (even walnut!).  Cottonwood won't be much good for fencing or other applications where rot resistance is important.  Factor in the learning curve and building up a customer base, and figure you won't make a profit for the first year, at best.  At this point you could doing market research.  Talk to the meat packing houses & find out if they need odd-size pallets.  Find others who need wood.  Make sure you have a source that will meet the need.  And look at some other mills (like the ones that sponsor this site).  You may want to start with a manual mill, then move up to hydraulics once things get up and running, so keep that in mind.
Norwood MX34 Pro portable sawmill, 8N Ford, Lewis Winch

47sawdust

Levi,
Welcome to the forum,lot's of experience and good advice.I saw for personal use and for my carpentry business.Their are a lot of good used mills out there.You are not terribly far from EZ Boardwalk which is a fine mill as well.My wife has always been supportive of my sawmill habit.It helps that I sawed and built a garage for her car as well as a garden gazebo.Good luck to you.
Mick
1997 WM Lt30 1999 WM twin blade edger Kubota L3750 Tajfun winchGood Health Work is my hobby.

mikeb1079

an old friend of mine has a newer woodland mills that i got to play with about a month ago...i have to say i was very impressed!  very nice well built stout mill for the price.  i think your idea is a good one!
that's why you must play di drum...to blow the big guys mind!
homebuilt 16hp mill
99 wm superhydraulic w/42hp kubota

levisthered

So from reading what you guys have been saying cutting wood for pallets seems to be a poor way to spend your time. One thing I didn't mention is a furniture manufacturer is nearby. the make sofa's and chairs. I don't know what kind of wood they use but it doesn't have to be pretty when its under upholstery. From what I have read elm and cottonwood sound like good woods for furniture. so that could be another place to go with wood. What about solar kilns. I live in Kansas and we do have plenty of sunshine

woodyone.john

Levi, most of us only live once, then a long time in the black. My advise is get a small mill that is of a common and reputable brand. You will find out pretty quick if you like the 'work' or not. If you do then you will learn a lot in a year and know whether its for you,how many of your neighbours need your services and what sort of toy/machine you need to get further along the process. If its not for you, there will be some salvage value in the mill and you will have the T shirt and can move on.All of this presumes as a farmer you have some support/harvest equipment already so you are not leading you and your family on an ever increasing spiral chasing more kit.Good luck
cheers john
Saw millers are just carpenters with bigger bits of wood

woodyone.john

P.S get your wife on side by making her something useful out of some of your first milling, with her on your side and singing your praise to her friends your business is already going.
Saw millers are just carpenters with bigger bits of wood

levisthered

I got more powder and shot for my I want to by a sawmill cannon!!! Our house was built in 1962 and it has ash cabinets and trim. Like almost all ash that I have seen from the 60's and 70's it has been stained an awful yellow green, until recently I didn't know ash came any different and always thought it was ugly. We just finished making new doors for my inlaws vanity replacing the old greenish yellow ash with ash stained a deep brownish reddish purplish color and it is a very attractive wood. Now Sara wants to do that to our ash cabinets, so I have just finished measuring all the cabinet doors in the house. forgot to do the trim...shucks but any way I figured it will take 223.13 board feet to do all the doors we have an average of five online retailers made the price $3.51 per foot so that's $783.19. we have been tearing up some of the carpet in the house as well putting vinyl tiles in the kitchen and dining room and after seeing how gross it was under the carpet we both want rid of it except for maybe the bedrooms. so I have been thinking would an ash floor look nice  :D
thanks again for all your advice guys take care
Levi

Seaman

Wait Levi ! We are not finished giving advice yet !
Woody is spot on ! Have your wife in your camp first, and the rest is easy. Women seem to have a God given talent for sensing when something is gonna work out. Find all the things you can do for HER first, ahile selling a little at the same time.

Look at your locale. Is there other portable mills nearby ? Are they busy?
Is there a niche market nearby that isn't being filled? Go to folks who use wood and ask them what they have a hard time finding, and what they feel like they pay too much for.
Any one selling live edge near you?
You will usually do better in a niche, than trying to compete with a dozen neighbors.

Put the Wife on the hunt for the wood she needs for her projects, and add up the cost. She is the best marketing adviser you can get, face it, what do most women love to do? SHOP ! She will help find a market. You NEED her help, otherwise, you will be fighting TWO uphill battles at once ! Build a shed for her car ( near the house ) first, then a mill shed.

FRank
Lucas dedicated slabber
Woodmizer LT40HD
John Deere 5310 W/ FEL
Semper Fi

goose63

My wife was not up set when I got the woodland mill then she seen the lumber comeing out of the red pine she wanted a shed for the new rideing mower now its a 3 car garage plus she likes helping with the mill guess I got lucky when I found her  8)
goose
if you find your self in a deep hole stop digging
saw logs all day what do you get lots of lumber and a day older
thank you to all the vets

glassman_48

levi,
I am in the same boat that you are, cant decide if I want to purchase a more expensive mill with hydraulics, or just a small starter mill.  I have done a lot of research to see what prospects I have to sell to. The biggest issue for me is my age 61 years old.  The guys I have listened to in here tell me how brutally hard moving lumber around can be.  I have a 31 year old son so that helps some :laugh:  I have been looking at purchasing a used small mill like a woodlands or ez boardwalk and running some wood for a couple of years and if it looks like I can make enough money then I would purchase a hydraulic mill eventually.  Another thing that sawmill guys build around here are sheds, they set them by the side of the road and build a skid under them to pull on and off a trailer and you can easily move it to your location.  If I buy a smaller mill, and things don't work out then I can sell it and not be out much $$  I also have a commercial location on a state highway with 6 acres so I have plenty of room.  I also want to build a simple shelter for my firewood processor to help keep it out of the weather and I would build one for my sawmill too.  I would guess that my purchase of a small mill would probably pay for itself just to put up my shelters and a couple of other projects that I have.  Good luck levi,,,,,,,,,,Ed

Solomon

Quote from: levisthered on November 18, 2014, 09:29:17 AM
Ok so here goes, My name is Levi. I am from western Kansas, well the eastern edge of western Kansas. I have been thinking about getting myself a sawmill for a while. I have been looking really hard at the woodland mills machine, mostly because of the price and that I don't want to do this full time. Farming is my full time job, dad has a cabinet shop that he runs through the winter so I have some woodworking experience. What I want to do with this mill is take dead and dying trees from our property and from around the area, use them for jobs that we might get should the customer want local wood and sell wood to people that might want it. There are several custom cabinet shops within an hour of me and 3 large pallet manufactures also within an hour to an hour and a half possibly more that I don't know about. Pallets are a big deal around here due to the beef packing industry. The most prevalent species around are cottonwood, Siberian elm, American elm, ash, I think green ash but not sure, hackberry, eastern red cedar, and black locust. Less common but still present are black walnut, various oaks, ponderosa pines, I think from people digging them up in Colorado and bringing them home from vacation I have one in my yard right now, but he is safe, catalpa and Russian olive. That is about it but I'm sure I'm leaving some out. I have read about elm being a diamond in the rough as far as tough nice looking lumber. I admit I have never worked with it but pictures of it look nice after it has been finished. do you guys think I'm being crazy for thinking about this or does the idea have some merit.
thanks Levi
You didn't indicate your budget Levi.  How much are you looking to spend  ??????????
Time and Money,  If you have the one, you rarely have the other.

The Path to Salvation is narrow, and the path to damnnation is wide.

levisthered

I would say my budget is on the low end for now the woodland mills hm126 plus shipping and a pack of blades is $3473 which I think I could swing fairly easily

Puffergas

Call or stop in to your prospective customers and let them know you might have lumber/pallets to sell and see if they will bite and for how much ?$$ Do that be fore buying a mill ;)

I'd look a swing saw but I doubt that 4K will land ya one...
Jeff
Somewhere 20 miles south of Lake Erie.

GEHL 5624 skid steer, Trojan 114, Timberjack 225D, D&L SB1020 mill, Steiger Bearcat II

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