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LT40 super with caterpillar 51hp hard to start.

Started by Waterford Woodworks, November 13, 2014, 07:48:26 PM

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Waterford Woodworks

My life has changed. I purchased a new to me mill last Monday and sold my mill this Monday. I can't believe how fast it all happened. Yesterday was the first day I was able to saw with the new mill. I am pretty particular, the wife likes to call it anal retentive, so I have been spending all week performing maintenance and replacing parts. I'm a firm believer things should work the way they are supposed to. Is there anything wrong with that?
Well I have everything working as it should except 2 things. The board drag back needs work but I should be able to figure it out. But the primary problem is it's hard to start. it is cold here now but I think it should start easier. I have pulled all of the glow plugs and tested them and they are in good working order but how do I know if they are getting power from the battery? The glow plug light comes on and I can feel the relay click but am not sure how to test if they are getting power.
Also I am going to change the oil but am unsure of what kind of oil to use for this. My old mill was an lt40 manual with a 28 hp Koehler engine. I am loving the power difference of this mill and especially they hydraulics but am lost in limbo over Diesel engines. I received the owners manuals with it but didn't get the actual engine manual. It has 1400 hours. Thanks for the help. I love it is forum and can't say enough good about it and it's members.
2006 Lt40 Super Cat 51, Allis Chalmers 185
"Keep doing what your doing and you'll keep getting what your getting, life is what you make of it."

woodmills1

MY LT70 with 62 HP cat was very hard to start from day one used.  First I found a cracked glow plug.  Then, second my mill sat unused for 3 years with the previous owner in bad health.  A starter rebuild and battery upgrade and she starts like
EASY now
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

Peter Drouin

When it's cold, I use the glow plugs, But, On cold cold days I hold the gas rod ¼ to½" back while Im starting it. It will start and you hold it, You will here the cat's RPM go up and down, Hold it till it stops that, Let go and it will Idell. :)
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

bandmiller2

Waterford, if you hook up a test light or meter when you turn on the glow plugs it should tell you if their getting power. Did you test them out of the engine with battery current.? All their connections should be real clean. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Dave Shepard

Quote from: Peter Drouin on November 13, 2014, 08:18:33 PM
When it's cold, I use the glow plugs, But, On cold cold days I hold the gas rod ¼ to½" back while Im starting it. It will start and you hold it, You will here the cat's RPM go up and down, Hold it till it stops that, Let go and it will Idell. :)

That's what I do as well. Mine was really hard to start below 40 when it was new. Now, with almost 800 hours, it starts much better, but it's no Kubota.  ;)
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Magicman

I have no experience with a Cat, but Diesel engines need a hot battery.  They need to do more than just turn over.  They need to spin.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

terrifictimbersllc

Like Frank said test the glow plug voltage, the strip across the top of them should go 12V in order for them to get hot.
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

Waterford Woodworks

I pulled the glow plugs and checked them with a battery. They were red hot really fast. When I turned the key on the glow plug light comes on and stays on for about 15 or so seconds and when I am on the other side of the motor I(with the black box cover off) I can see the glow plug relay and hear it click on. I thought I could touch one of the terminals that has the fusible link attached to it and ground the multimeter to the engine block and should see voltage when the glow plug relay is activated but I get no sign of power. Am I doing this right or is there another way I should check this with the multimeter. I was a jet mechanic in my former life of the navy but electrical functions and testing is not my forte. Technology advances are spectacular but I'm a slow learner when it comes to problems, i.e: a computer. I could probably do pretty well with sticks and rocks. Maybe a carrier pigeon to deliver messages. Thanks for the fast response. I wasn't expecting it until the morning.
2006 Lt40 Super Cat 51, Allis Chalmers 185
"Keep doing what your doing and you'll keep getting what your getting, life is what you make of it."

Magicman

It could very well be that the relay is operating but the contact is not making to supply the 12v to the glow plug strip.

I had to remove the plastic relay cover and clean the contacts on my previous Diesel engine.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

terrifictimbersllc

My Kubota  had a broken connector in the relay base once, have to track things down
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

pineywoods

Had a similiar problem last week on a 7 year old lt40 super with a kibota diesel. Hard to start, then it started just quiting halfway through a log. There is a large wire loom that ends right below the glow plug relay. Three inches from the end, down INSIDE the loom there's a bunch of wire splices. Found a poor crimp on a butt splice, 1 wire in one end, and 2 in the other. Turns out it was the lead from the key switch to the glow plug relay and the fuel shutoff solenoid. The splicer was factory installed. Didn't have a wiring diagram, so it took a while to find. Luck beats good anytime  ;D
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

sealark37

Shell "Rotella T"  15W40.  Keep the air filter clean.  In cold weather, mix one part kerosene with three parts #2 diesel fuel.  Or buy #1 diesel if it is available.   Regards, Clark

StimW

On the tractor boards they recommend cycling the glow plugs more than once for cold starting.
New HF Band Mill
Branson 35 hp 4 WD Diesel Tractor W/Attachments- Backhoe, FEL W/ Bucket or Forks, 4' Tiller
4000# Clark Forklift W/24" Tires
Promark 6" Brush chipper W/18 hp Kohler

bandmiller2

As Majic says batteries are most important in cold weather if a diesel doesn't crank at a good clip they won't start. I rely on group 31 batteries they can be had with 1000 CCA and will spin small diesels like they mean it. If your anywhere near power a good trickle charger/conditioner will keep a battery up and active. Be leary of ether, that's like crack to a diesel, they get strung out on it then need it. Again if your near power a block heater will add life to your engine and save much wear on the engine and starter. In any area, cold or hot, synthetic oil will extend engine life and aid starts when the temp. is low. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

petefrom bearswamp

I dont start the mill in very cold weather but when I do I prop the throttle rod slightly open with a slim piece of whatever is handy and do 10 seconds twice on the GP.
Also my Perkipillar manual indicated 10 qts of oil which is way too much, trial and error indicates 8 qts by the dipstick.
I second the Rotella comment.
Strong battery also.
Kubota 8540 tractor, FEL bucket and forks, Farmi winch
Kubota 900 RTV
Polaris 570 Sportsman ATV
3 Huskies 1 gas Echo 1 cordless Echo vintage Homelite super xl12
57 acres of woodland

mmartone

So, ether is bad for engines, period. It produces such an explosion that it sometimes can break the top edges off of a piston and cause catastrophic failure. A few glow plug cycles wil help as will hot batteries and a good starter. Beyond that there are some questions, does it smoke at all while idling once warm or under load and if so what color? Injectors that are not atomizing fuel properly will also cause hard start. Tune up recently?
Remember, I only know what you guys teach me. Lt40 Manual 22hp KAwaSaki, Husky3120 60", 56" Panther CSM, 372xp, 345xp, Stihl 041, 031, blue homelite, poulans, 340

Magicman

Quote from: bandmiller2 on November 14, 2014, 08:10:13 AMBe leary of ether, that's like crack to a diesel, 
With glow plugs, ether is never ever used, and the OP did not indicate that he used it.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Alyeska Pete

WW,
You answered your own question correctly:
"I pulled the glow plugs and checked them with a battery. They were red hot really fast. When I turned the key on the glow plug light comes on and stays on for about 15 or so seconds and when I am on the other side of the motor I(with the black box cover off) I can see the glow plug relay and hear it click on. I thought I could touch one of the terminals that has the fusible link attached to it and ground the multimeter to the engine block and should see voltage when the glow plug relay is activated but I get no sign of power."
You are not getting power to the glow plugs despite the light and clicking. Check the output side of the relay for power when the glow plug light is on. If you have power there, the problem is an open circuit downstream to the glow plugs. If you don't have power on the output side of the relay when the light is on, repair or replace the relay.
Pete

Waterford Woodworks

Alright, after weeping and nashing of teeth, I hunted the problem down to the glow plug relay. Thanks for all the advice. I took it apart and cleaned the contacts and now have power to the glow plugs. I went ahead and changed the oil,fuel filter, air filters,and will put a full tank of good grade diesel before I attempt the cold start. Tomorrow morning will be the real test. It is 19 degrees outside now. Again thanks for all the advice. I'll keep you updated to let you know how it works. Also I plan to order a new relay from Woodmizer on Monday.
2006 Lt40 Super Cat 51, Allis Chalmers 185
"Keep doing what your doing and you'll keep getting what your getting, life is what you make of it."

Magicman

If the glow plug relay is supplying power now to the glow plugs after cleaning, then it is doing all that a new one could do.  Those relays can be quite pricey.

A heavy gauge jumper with alligator clips between the starter (hot) and the glow plug strip will always work in a pinch until a replacement relay can be shipped if needed.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

backwoods sawyer

Good to hear you tracked it down 8)
I have a push button to activate the preheater. Be danged if the spring in the button didn't break this morning ::) Quick bypass and the mill was warming up.

Be sure to drain your water seperator when it is going to be below freezing ;) 
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

ladylake

 For those of that can with a push button switch keep the glow plugs on while cranking.     Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

terrifictimbersllc

Consider switching to 10W30 oil for the coldest part of the winter.
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

wwsjr

Since I always had AC available with mill set up permanent, a block heater inserted in freeze plug hole was the way to go for me. I usually also inserted a sliver of wood in the throttle linkage. The 51 Cat was hard to start for me below 40°
Retired US Army, Full Time Sawyer since 2001. 2013 LT40HD Super with 25HP 3 Phase, Command Control with Accuset2. ED26 WM Edger, Ford 3930 w/FEL, Prentice Log Loader. Stihl 311, 170 & Logrite Canthooks. WM Million BF Club Member.

barbender

Glad you figured it out, I would second installing a block heater if you have AC available. I run Rotella 5w-40 synthetic in my diesel, that also makes it start a bit easier.
Too many irons in the fire

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