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Author Topic: Questions About Computerized Logging Equipment  (Read 1418 times)

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Offline SliverPicker

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Questions About Computerized Logging Equipment
« on: November 10, 2014, 10:29:53 pm »
Is all of this electronic stuff necessary?  What are the supposed advantages? I just simply don't see any benefit.  It just makes things much more complicated and expensive. When you are trying to run a piece of equipment that has to survive in these types of conditions is it wise to have controls that require a tiny range of millivolts to operate properly?  How reliable could that type of machine ever hope to be over the long term?

Are these machines all computerized simply because the manufacturers think that customers will think their machines inferior if the don't have the "latest" technology.

I am willing to bet if JD, CAT, Tigercat etc made simpler and less expensive machines they would sell many more units per year. 

Opinions?  Any industry insiders care to sound off on this?
Yooper by trade.

Offline redprospector

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Re: Questions About Computerized Logging Equipment
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2014, 11:08:02 pm »
I've asked this same question many times. Especially when I'm having to deal with some malfunctioning electronic crap.
A lot of it amounts to creature comforts, and things that make the operation of equipment less tiring for the operator. There are also things like pressure relief valves that can't be adjusted (unless you're a computer guru, I guess). So that makes a lot of the little tricks we used to use digging gravel out of a bank useless. You now need a much larger machine to do the same job.
When you have the electronic pilot controlled joysticks, you loose the "feel" of the machine, opposed to the old joysticks that were attached to 2 hydraulic valves.
I only have 2 machines that are new enough to have computers, my Bobcat and my Fecon. I enjoy running and working on my old 440b skidder much more than the newer machines.
Is it necessary? In my opinion, for what I do, NO.
Would I rather have mechanical engines and controls? YES.
Will I have to get used to all of the computerized stuff? YES, unless I decide to run "old Iron" the rest of my life.
Face it SliverPicker, we're dinosaurs.  :D
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

Offline lopet

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Re: Questions About Computerized Logging Equipment
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2014, 11:43:06 pm »
I am a dinosaur and will be as long I am in business. The reason  for this " technology " is that you can't fix it yourself and have to get somebody in for $ 100 or more per hour.  It's the same thing with cars what puts a lot off the backyard mechanics out of business because the manufacturer make the software unaffordable for them.   I just love the old stuff.
30 or 40 years old equipment will still do the job when 10 year old stuff goes  to the melters again.
Make sure you know how to fall properly when you fall and as to not hurt anyone around you.
Also remember, it's not the fall what hurts, its the sudden stop. !!

Offline Gary_C

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Re: Questions About Computerized Logging Equipment
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2014, 10:30:37 am »
So that makes a lot of the little tricks we used to use digging gravel out of a bank useless. You now need a much larger machine to do the same job.
When you have the electronic pilot controlled joysticks, you loose the "feel" of the machine, opposed to the old joysticks that were attached to 2 hydraulic valves.


Shovels still work and they still sell them. With a shovel you can get the "feel" of your work.   ;D

So the first question is why did you "old dinosaurs" move from the shovel to the "old joysticks that were attached to two hydraulic valves?" And the second question is why did you move up from the horses to a skidder? You don't need wrenches for shovels and horses.  ??? ???


Are these machines all computerized simply because the manufacturers think that customers will think their machines inferior if the don't have the "latest" technology.

I am willing to bet if JD, CAT, Tigercat etc made simpler and less expensive machines they would sell many more units per year. 
 

It has always been because their customers have demanded bigger and better equipment. And if you want to bet against bigger and better and for simpler and less expensive, you better be ready to lose your bet.

How many horses are you looking to buy?

Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Offline M_S_S

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Re: Questions About Computerized Logging Equipment
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2014, 12:01:07 pm »
I have owned and rebuilt several Cats D4 thru D7, if I had a book on them I had no problems. Heck the new ones I probably couldn't even read the book lol. Ed
2- 562xp 24"bar
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Offline 1270d

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Re: Questions About Computerized Logging Equipment
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2014, 01:54:21 pm »
I agree with Gary.   Computers are allowing us to have the discussion in the first place.  They also are required to run engines that can meet the new emissions standards.  As far as ease of adjustment and tuning, I can tune pretty much every single flow and function using the onboard computer system.  Feeling the controls happens in any machine.  You will never have a feel for an electronic machine if you dont have a bunch of hours running it. Just like you wouldn't have a feel for an old 5 lever knuckle boom if you didn't have a bunch of time in the seat.

sure the older equipment could produce the volume of wood we are today, but it would burn double the fuel.  Also, how many of these old fully mechanical machines would run the same engine for 20000+ hours?

Offline lopet

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Re: Questions About Computerized Logging Equipment
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2014, 07:14:13 pm »
................  Bigger and better doesn't necessary mean more money at the end if the month.

................  Electric is one thing, electronic is another.

................  I am not against it, I just don't wanna put up with it.  That's my choice














   
Make sure you know how to fall properly when you fall and as to not hurt anyone around you.
Also remember, it's not the fall what hurts, its the sudden stop. !!

Offline redprospector

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Re: Questions About Computerized Logging Equipment
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2014, 07:25:41 pm »
Gary_C, I use a shovel quite frequently, along with a rock bar. And yes I can feel my work for several days when using them.  :D
To answer your first question; I didn't move from a shovel to a joystick. I moved from a shovel to hydraulic valves with a single stick coming from each valve. When I was 20, if someone asked me about my "joy stick", I sure wasn't thinking about a tractor.  :D
To answer your second question; When I was a young dinosaur, they had already invented the skidder. Horses were better suited for working cattle (skidders didn't work too well for that  ;)). You may not need wrenches for shovels and horses, but they do require maintenance, which means they require tools. Ever put a new handle in a shovel? You'll need at the very minimum a file, a hammer, and a punch. Other non computerized tools can also make that job easier.
Now horses are a different story...they are pretty high maintenance. For day to day maintenance you'll need a curry comb, a brush, a hoof pick at minimum. For periodic maintenance you'll need a rasp, a hammer, some nails, a forge, some borrium, and an anvil with accessories. Oh, you'll also need some steel, or ready made shoes. You'll probably want to keep on hand an assortment of leather punches and awl's, harness needles, waxed thread, an assortment of good leather knives, etc. to keep the harness in decent shape. Then you have the medical aspect of horse maintenance. You'll need a good syringe, antibiotics and other assorted medications, some suture materials, and a long tube to run down their nostril so that you can insure that they don't have worms. I could go on, but I'll stop there.
You don't need wrenches for computers either (unless you're going to beat it with a wrench.  :D). The similarities between my mechanical equipment and a shovel, and horses is that they all require their own specific tools and knowledge to use them. I have pretty well acquired those tools, and some of the knowledge. I can't say the same about my computerized equipment.
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

Offline Alexanderthelate

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Re: Questions About Computerized Logging Equipment
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2014, 07:35:58 pm »
The way I see it, if the machine did the job before it became computerized, then the computerization can't have much to do with it doing it's job. Do motors require computers to operate? Do winches winch any faster due to the computer? Just because computers work and we use them does not mean we need them in our machinery. All it does is insures that the machine is brought back to the dealer for maintenance instead of being Jerry-rigged in the woods.

Offline Ed_K

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Re: Questions About Computerized Logging Equipment
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2014, 08:01:36 pm »
 Well yes you do need puter's to run them,EPA said so  >:( .
Ed K

Offline snowstorm

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Re: Questions About Computerized Logging Equipment
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2014, 08:05:07 pm »
15 yrs ago i bought a cat excavator. it has a computer in it along with piston pumps. i thought at the time something to gonna go wrong its only a matter of time. zero problems. there is a computer module on my clt head zero problems. and that lives in a pretty hostile environment. if your pickup is less than 20 yrs old it has several computers in it. just wait until the feds say everyone must use a teir 4 engine

Offline 1270d

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Re: Questions About Computerized Logging Equipment
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2014, 10:00:02 pm »
15 yrs ago i bought a cat excavator. it has a computer in it along with piston pumps. i thought at the time something to gonna go wrong its only a matter of time. zero problems. there is a computer module on my clt head zero problems. and that lives in a pretty hostile environment. if your pickup is less than 20 yrs old it has several computers in it. just wait until the feds say everyone must use a teir 4 engine

Most of the forestry companies have enough credits to put off tier four for another year or two, then its juice and filters for everyone.

Offline BargeMonkey

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Re: Questions About Computerized Logging Equipment
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2014, 10:58:00 pm »
Well yes you do need puter's to run them,EPA said so  >:( .
To bid on most of the high $$$ excavation work your forced into tier 4 now. In the marine world to get city or gov work the boats must be tier 3. Nyc paid 1.5 mil bucks 7 yrs ago in a grant to make the boat im on tier 1.
 Little off topic but who is willing to bet the corn farmers are in for heart ache this year ? The floor has fallen out for ethanol demand, and the new crude coming from S.Dakota / Eagle ford Tx is already 60 octane out of the ground. And they claim there is no oil in this country. Ethanol free gas is a huge market now, people will pay the .30 diff to avoid the headaches.
 

Offline HiTech

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Re: Questions About Computerized Logging Equipment
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2014, 06:32:53 am »
If you are around my age computers are fairly new. The first computer I saw was in college and was a monster. You couldn't put it in the back of a pickup truck. You had to program it with the binary code. 0001, 101010, 001, etc. It was slower than molasses going up hill in January. After 1968 (the year my skiddder was made) the computer world started taking over. It has evolved by leaps and bounds. The reason is fairly simple. The young have grown up with computers. Most can't walk or talk without some kind of computer device in their hands. Well simply put these kids become Engineers...what do they know about...computers. So naturally computers are put in everything they build. Some probably make life better while others may make it a pain. In todays world you no longer have to be a mechanic but a computer wiz. when kids see my cell phone they ask me what century it was made in? It's an old Nokia and has call in-call out, and texting. It will last me another 15 years. Todays cell devices are built for a years service, though some last longer. Bring equipment or whatever to the Salt State, New York and if it lasts here it will last anywhere. lol Times change. When the 15 year olds of today get 65 they will be talking the same way. The Good Old Days.