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Too much on first thinning?

Started by curdog, November 10, 2014, 10:08:13 PM

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curdog

I looked at a stand of CRP loblolly today on some of the best soils we have locally.  15 years old planted on 8x10 spacing. Tree's are 60 feet tall, giving them a site index of 80 with a base age of 25. Most of our sites have si 80 with base age of 50. The basal area averaged out at 210 sq/ft acre. The thinning guides I looked at maxed out, and the closest I could come up with was reducing it to basal area 71. That just seems like a lot of tree's being removed. Most of the time I recommend 4th row thinning with removal of some from the leave rows to get it down to basal area 70-80, but they usually start out at 120- 140. With a small worry of ice damage,  is this too much to reduce on first thinning?

Clark

I know next to nothing about loblolly but if this was red pine...

...taking it from an average BA of 210 down to less than 100 would guarantee that the stand blows over in the next five years.

Red pine ready for the first thinning often have that much BA but they are shorter than what you are dealing with so windthrow is less of a factor. I like to see 40% of the stems taken out in a first thinning, if the thinning is done on time. If the stand is left to it's own devices they get mighty whippy and you have to be careful in that first thinning. If it were red pine, I wouldn't recommend taking more than 1/3 of the stems.

If any of that can apply to loblolly...I don't know.

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

BaldBob

I'm certainly no expert on Loblolly, but if it were me I would do it in 2 stages 6-8 years apart,just for piece of mind. Thin down to ~140 in the first stage and down to ~70 in the second stage

curdog

Thanks for the replys. I met with the timber buyer that asked me to look at the stand,  and I've asked quite a few different people about this stand and I think we're going with removing 40-50% of the stand. I stopped and looked at a 30 year old stand growing on similar soils that was second row thinned and it is producing some very impressive logs. The biggest thing is going to be keeping the understory under control from the increased sunlight. The second row thinned tract had every invasive and undesirable tree coming up in the understory,  which had to decrease some volume growth. The CRP tract is in a part of the county that doesn't have a real high risk of storm or ice damage, but it is always possible.
It definitely keeps thing interesting,  even field planted plantations can make you stop and scratch your head every now and again.

Okrafarmer

Good question to ask, curdog. I'm wondering if one of our southeastern foresters can tell you a little more specifically on here. Loblolly plantations are common in my area, but I really don't do anything with them myself, nor am I a forester.  ;)
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

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curdog

Quote from: Okrafarmer on November 23, 2014, 02:02:57 PM
Good question to ask, curdog. I'm wondering if one of our southeastern foresters can tell you a little more specifically on here. Loblolly plantations are common in my area, but I really don't do anything with them myself, nor am I a forester.  ;)
I'm always up for more advice and opinions. Most tracts are pretty straight forward,  but there are different angles to look at things, and I'd rather have the options and opinions while the tree's are still standing then after the fact. I'm definitely not too proud to ask for advice, especially when it comes to something that takes as long as timber to grow ( and it's not mine ).
If you're in the upper part of sc, then this tract can't be far as it borders the state line and our soil types would be very similar to things found in your area as well.

Okrafarmer

I'm not far from Greenville, SC. Since we're in the Piedmont area here, transitioning to mountains, there's a lot of variability in the soil types, but I guess the one that's a lot of places is the plain old southern red clay.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Phorester


In a first thinning of a loblolly stand like this, my experience here is that about 50% of the trees should be removed to get the basal area down to an appropriate level.  So your idea of taking out 40% - 50% sounds right.

I don't know your markets there, but doing it in stages as BaldBob suggests might not be commercially feasible, since this would be two low volume cuts, each of which might not be salable. And if you did sell the first one, but couldn't sell the second one, you would defeat your purpose of thinning.  My two cents.

thompsontimber

Hi neighbor, sorry I didn't notice and weigh in earlier. You should be fine with the approach you are considering, but I would recommend the 4th row and thin in between, targeting closer to 40% than 50%.  Is this a Polk County tract?  Impressive heights for that age in Polk County.  You'll have some spindly residuals and I'd have some fear about residual stand stability if going real heavy.  I'm still of the opinion that second row thinning is too aggressive and risky for the residual stand stability.  Besides that, you are removing the good and the bad from every harvest row and losing a lot of future log quality trees in the process.  The 4th row will provide access while allowing for a proper thinning of suppressed and poorly formed trees in the residual rows.  5th row wouldn't be a bad idea in such a heavily stocked stand, but you are going to be more limited by the availability of capable harvesters in the Polk County area.  You are in the transition area out of productive loblolly plantations and the "norm" for the area is 3rd row thinning and regeneration harvest as opposed to second thinnings.  We have skilled thinning crews around, but not all that claim to be are!  I'm willing to look at this stand with you if you'd like.

thompsontimber


curdog

TTimber, I'm envisioning a third row thin with a little heavy on the removal on the thinned rows. It was a 8x10 spacing but some how that spacing tightened up in places, up to 3-4 feet in places. This was not the norm across the stand, but scattered. There was enough forked trees to warrant the heavier picking in places.
Yeah, most tracts in polk county don't have site index this high. The south eastern side transitions to a Cecil soil with really high site index, and a lot of the land around the green river is pushing a site index of 120 base age 50. The uplands with Pacolet soils usually average about 80, still grows good pine, but not like the loamy soils in the bottom of the county. Even shortleaf has a site index on the soils of around 70 ba 50.
Thanks for the food for thought and good to hear from you.

thompsontimber

Just sent you a rather winded PM reply, good to hear from you as well.  I like the 3rd row thinning much more than the 2nd and can certainly see such a stand warranting a heavy picking in the residuals.  Planting crews seem to have a tendency to get drunk or something...paid by the seedling!  The variations in spacing can get quite interesting.  I've been fortunate enough to run across some of those great growth sites, they certainly do exist.  Unfortunately I've had my share of experiences with horrid sites in the area as well.  True enough, every good loblolly stand I work tends to be a combo of Cecil and mostly Pacolet-Bethlehem Complex. 
Depending upon the abilities/equipment of the operator, I wouldn't shy away from a similar basal area target but from a 4th row thinning if the acreage warrants.  Grow more logs!

Texas Ranger

I dont care to prescribe without actually seeing a stand, but, I would go third row and a couple of years thin the remainder.  May call for herbicide but again, outside my area of operations and dont know the use of Herbicides in your areas.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

thompsontimber

The stand he is describing is on very workable ground and has the growth and heavy stocking as described, and a 4th row with a capable operator heavy picking the residuals or 3rd row with easier residual access to residuals should work fine.  Thinning at 15 here is a bit of a rarity as site index is not so high for the majority of stands.  It is an exceptional site for the area.  The typical first thinning window here is more in the 17 to 19 range  due to economic feasibility.  You have crown closure but you don't have heights for commercial operation. I'm sure Curdog can elaborate on the herbicide implementation, but I do see this as a potential limiting factor.  Small acreage and the "typical" landowner in the area tends to shy away from out of pocket intermediate treatments.  CRP and other cost-shares do help stir particular landowners towards herbicide and prescribed burns.  Definetely a big understory flush to contend with moving forward though.  The lovely sweetgum!

curdog

Herbicide work is definitely an option, and many of the CRP contracts require prescribed burning with cost share money available.  There is little to no aerial herbicide application,  but ground application is no problem. Depending on the CRP contract they may include a little money for herbicide, but not enough to begin to cover the per acre cost. If done as spot treatment with back packs a tract as small as an acre is possible,  but need to look at a minimum of no less than 5 for a skidder if other jobs are in the area. 4th row is thinned just right for skidder herbicide coverage for mid rotation.  5th row leaves gaps when running up the thinned rows.
This stand would probably benefit from fire since the more fertile soils have heavier amounts of needles on the forest floor, and you can get a better burn to nock back the hardwood regeneration.

thompsontimber

I don't encounter a lot of herbicide treatment being utilized by the majority of private landowners in the area.  Certainly cost prohibitive for many who could benefit.  I finished a management plan for a CRP stand last week that had a prescribed burn in 2011 or 12 that didn't really knock the hardwood regeneration back.  Sweetgum galore.

Are you doing a lot of herbicide application in Polk?

curdog

No definitely more burning than herbicide work. Mostly release after planting. I've got one midrotation on the books. Fire is a lot cheaper per acre if the area allows it.
Those CRP burns sometimes get burned on less than ideal conditions due the time restrictions put on that program. Some of those tracts will have a deadline date to complete the burning very early in the year,  so they usually don't get burned as hot as if it was delayed a few months. There is still benefit, but those burns aren't going to hit the hardwoods as much.

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