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Responding to dangerous practices

Started by grtroes, October 27, 2014, 08:20:51 PM

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grtroes

I have met many so-called professional and semipro foresters who proudly proclaim that they completely grind off the depth gauges on all their chains.  A "pro" timber cutter in Colorado cuts big hickory and oak timber with a big saw, using a full-skip chain with no depth gauges.  He claims that all professional sawyers get rid of the gauges.  His saw produces "noodles" -- his terminology -- that are 1/16 to 1/8 inch thick, and about 2" long.  Another cutter, working for a Missouri River clear-cutting outfit in Nebraska, makes the same claim. And now a relative in Wisconsin tells me he also "improves" his chains by grinding down the rakers.  He bucks hundreds of trees a year to produce firewood for sale.  I tell all these guys that I think they're stupid or suicidal, or both.  Every one of them has challenged me to provide any evidence that removing is a bad thing for skilled professionals to do.  The guy in Colorado says being able to buck a 48" hickory log in less than a minute gives him a big competitive advantage.

Does anybody have OSHA or industry safety data that I can use to wake these guys up about the dangers to making such a major modification to a chainsaw?  All of these guys use big saws with big bars.  I'm often away from my computer for several days at a time, so you may send me an email reply, or reply here and I'll see it eventually.  Thanks!

thecfarm

grtroes,welcome to the forum.
I myself would not bother. There is a little bull going on,but there is some truth too. I don't concern myself with speed. Some I heard will even run the oil mix on the low side to make the saw run faster. Kinda the same idea. Much easier to say,"yep",than to say anything else. As I told my FIL,when he was trying to tell me what others have told him, ::),I've heard all them stories many time before.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

ZeroJunk

I want to see the 48 inch hickory log in less than a minute.

Maine logger88

There is no way even with a big saw will have enough power too pull the chain through a log with no depth gauges. I have found that a saw of any cc range will cut faster if you keep the depth gauges in spec and the rpms up. Plus there is no way a man could hold a saw cutting with the top of the chain. I call BS lol
79 TJ 225 81 JD 540B Husky and Jonsered saws

NWP

Quote from: ZeroJunk on October 27, 2014, 08:34:10 PM
I want to see the 48 inch hickory log in less than a minute.

I just want to see a 48" hickory in Colorado.
1999 Blockbuster 2222, 1997 Duratech HD10, 2021 Kubota SVL97-2, 2011 Case SV250, 2000 Case 1845C, 2004 Case 621D, John Deere 540A, 2011 Freightliner with Prentice 120C, 2012 Chevrolet, 1997 GMC bucket truck, several trailers, and Stihl saws.

beenthere

grtroes
Welcome to the Forestry Forum.

I agree with theCfarm, let 'em talk.

If they like cutting with no rakers, then let it be.

What are you cutting with? Let's hear what you do.
Your whereabouts would be helpful, and you could fill out your bio some in your profile (i.e. location as to country, or state, or ? )

And are pro or semi-pro foresters cutting trees?
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Southside

I want to see the foresters cutting trees, then find out how to get them to do it around here....
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Andyshine77

Andre.

Al_Smith

I'd like to see a hickory tree period in Colorado . :D

drobertson

I have found that the longer bigger noodles get clogged in the discharge chute on my 362,  the 311 does pretty well when rip sawing.  But taking down the rakes, they must have lots of hp.
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

LittleJohn

Had an uncle who "modified", not removed his rakers, so he could cut poplar faster, and MAN-O-MAN would those saws fly thru poplar when sharp.  ...and the first oak you hit with his saw, would about shake your teeth out.

Compensation

Welcome to the forum. Sometimes you just have to nod and walk away. You already have some good people giving better responses than I can give. I keep mine filed in with a guide now. Used to bump it with the sharpening wheel.

Quote from: Andyshine77 on October 28, 2014, 12:09:57 AM
I like pie, anyone else? 8)

Apple with vanilla ice cream on top :)
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Jeff

There is a directive that says the chainsaw chain must be properly adjusted. Using a broad sense of that directive, one could possibly construe that is not only in reference to factory specs on chain tension, but also in the way it is sharpened.

https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=9862&p_text_version=FALSE#1910.266%28e%29%282%29
Just call me the midget doctor.
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Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

weimedog

A Troll. Any one who mentions OSHA in the same paragraph with chainsaws. Troll. You don't wish OSHA, MSHA, or any other agency like that on any industry.
Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

Jeff

I have my ideas about the topic, but usually am willing to see where it will lead as long as no line of conduct has been crossed. Whoever he is, he does have a Colorado I.P.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

JohnW

I noticed in advice about how to set up a racing saw, that the guy said not to get too aggressive with the depth gauge.  If your saw faulters for a second, you loose.

Bret4207

Quote from: grtroes on October 27, 2014, 08:20:51 PM
I have met many so-called professional and semipro foresters who proudly proclaim that they completely grind off the depth gauges on all their chains.  A "pro" timber cutter in Colorado cuts big hickory and oak timber with a big saw, using a full-skip chain with no depth gauges.  He claims that all professional sawyers get rid of the gauges.  His saw produces "noodles" -- his terminology -- that are 1/16 to 1/8 inch thick, and about 2" long.  Another cutter, working for a Missouri River clear-cutting outfit in Nebraska, makes the same claim. And now a relative in Wisconsin tells me he also "improves" his chains by grinding down the rakers.  He bucks hundreds of trees a year to produce firewood for sale.  I tell all these guys that I think they're stupid or suicidal, or both.  Every one of them has challenged me to provide any evidence that removing is a bad thing for skilled professionals to do.  The guy in Colorado says being able to buck a 48" hickory log in less than a minute gives him a big competitive advantage.

Does anybody have OSHA or industry safety data that I can use to wake these guys up about the dangers to making such a major modification to a chainsaw?  All of these guys use big saws with big bars.  I'm often away from my computer for several days at a time, so you may send me an email reply, or reply here and I'll see it eventually.  Thanks!

I don't know that there's anything patently "unsafe" about taking the rakers way down, but it's hard on the saw and harder on the chain. It's their choice, but it sounds like a lot of bull to me. I don't particularly care what OSHA thinks about. I also don't know any "foresters" that are also loggers. Foresters are the woodlot management guys, loggers do the cutting.

HolmenTree

The past downed  quote of the pro cutter with no depth gauges may have got lost in the translation over the years.
With the common confusion of the labeling of rakers , depth gauges and safety ramps  it's probably the safety ramps or links that were ground off to help improve the chains cutting speed...... common method in timber sport competitions.
A saw chain is not designed to cut without depth gauges, kick back energy would be enormous and if some one did try it the chain loop would break apart very quickly.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

nell6355

I sharpen my chains by hand with a round file, with just a special handle and visual guide.   Each time I sharpen them the cutter gets shorter by about 0.020 inch.  that's a guess.   After sharpening them about 2 or 3 times, the chips get smaller.   That is when I grind down the depth guides a little.  My saws 034/044/MS460 cut best when the depth gage is about 0.040 to 0.060 below a straightedge held on top of two cutters.   Depth gages too tall:   that can make the saw cut crooked because the cutters can't get a good bite except at the very tips.   Depth gages too short:  that causes heavy vibration, stalling, and can burn up your saw.   The saw needs to run through the cut at the highest engine speed possible.  Slow down the cooling fan by pushing the saw through the cut, and it can overheat the cylinder.   I know of some professional crews that have burned up 362s because the guys were used to 044s and were pushing that little saw and bogging it down.  So that's what I do, and it works for me.  My chains cut slightly more aggressively than shop - sharpened chains.  Sharp and properly gaged chains take some work out of the work!  I had to learn it myself because when I started out I couldn't afford to have my chains sharpened.   Now I have money, but I can do it better, and only take the chains off to flip the bar or true it up.  In 30 years I have broken one chain "for no reason" on the MS460, and it was a fresh 84 link full skip chain straight from Stihl.  All the other ones that broke had a good reason.  So call me silly if you wish.

giant splinter

I kinda stand with Nell, the method described works great on my 044 and if I find it getting tired I will touch it up just a little between sharpenings even if its only a couple of cutters and then try to balance out everything the next time I sharpen it up. I think keeping them touched up keeps the power at its optimum.
roll with it

petefrom bearswamp

I am a forester (retired)  and have done some logging in the past as well as quite a lot of firewood.
Used to do TSI work in the 70s typically felling hundreds of trees in a day.
I keep my rakers slightly below the supplied gauge spec and the saws cut great.
I did drive a saw into my knee tearing the muniscus while under sawing many years ago. Lesson learned.
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3 Huskies 1 gas Echo 1 cordless Echo vintage Homelite super xl12
57 acres of woodland

beenthere

Quotewhile under sawing

What does that mean? just curious.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

JohnG28

I think he means cutting with the top of bar and kicking back out towards him?
Stihl MS361, 460 & 200T, Jonsered 490, Jonsereds 90, Husky 350 & 142, Homelite XL and Super XL

beenthere

south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

HolmenTree

Quote from: JohnG28 link=topic=78718.msg1196452#msg1196452 he'd be=1414860443
I think he means cutting with the top of bar and kicking back out towards him?
If Pete cut his knee with a kickback the logical thing would be that he was back chaining while making the felling back cut. Nose of bar contacted stump as he pulled out of cut and the kickback contacted his right knee.
Happened to me once but safety pants saved my knee.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

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