Advise appreciated. Eager rookie seeking to avoid unnecessary growing pains.

[k9klf]

Greetings to all who check into this post. As an untrained enthusiast of milling one's own lumber, I have settled on a wood-mizer LT28 since I want to have the option of taking the mill to friends, and hopefully future customer's, homes and wood sights to do cutting for them. I have read from other posts on that manual saws on commercial jobs are like mixing oil and water; I understand and respect the opinion but in my case, as a rookie wanting an affordable saw to learn with and to service mainly personal lumber needs, I would imagine this 28 would be adequate for what minor amounts of for-hire work I may find once I become proficient with it. With my intent hopefully explained, here is where I would love some advise. I have a 60 horse New Holland with a loader and grapple to load and turn the logs, would the optional winch, log turner, and toe boards be an unnecessary investment? Is there a notable engine longevity payoff to go with a diesel over a gas like it usually does with a new truck or are these saws and frames worn out before the gas engines are? (I also have stored diesel at home but hate to keep gasoline at home due to its higher risk of vapor issues and grass fires). Is the sale I received a flyer today for showing a 28 with an 18 HP gas for $10,995 the best deal I am likely to find in the next 6 months? (I see they list for $12,845 in the catalog). Is the training offered by wood-mizer enough for a rookie such as myself to hit the ground running or is my inclination to find a willing mentor to volunteer my time and labor to the best way to get started in this endeavor? I have many more questions but I feel they had better wait until I have a clear grasp on these first concerns. Thank you in advance for any help, wisdom, or advise you can offer. As a husband to one and a father of nine, I don't want to make any costly errors in finally getting into a hobby I have longed to jump feet first into.

[beenthere]

k9
Welcome to the Forestry Forum.

Lots of good questions. For starters, pls give up some info of general information in your profile/bio, such as location, as it will help to have it in mind when giving answers that may vary by your country, or by state, or areas within states. i.e. the question about the "best deal".  ;)

The question about the loader and grapple, that can be torture for your mill if you have a log that drops out of the grip of the grapple when loading or turning. It can be done and you won't be the first one to do it.  So don't think the options you mentioned would be at all unnecessary.

A good exchange of information with others on the forum will help you get through the newness of your venture.

[mad murdock]

Welcome k9klf. Good questions. I will leave it to more knowledgable types to answer. I have never ran or owned a band mill.

[Ianab]

You can probably make a profit with a manual mill, but it will be hard to make a living. What that means is you can go out and saw for the day, and make $100 of profit after all your expenses. It's hard to make a living on that income once you take your other normal expense out.

But what it does mean is that you can get your business started as a weekend thing, saw some smaller jobs, and not be loosing money doing it. Then if you find the sawing business taking off, you can do  the sums on buying a bigger and more productive mill. You have the start of a successful business, you can show a cashflow and business plan to the bank, and buy a bigger mill. You will get a good % of your money back on the old mill.

Or you may decide that the manual mill is fine, it saws your wood, and can do the occasional job for locals and continue to pay for itself like that.

Or, maybe milling isn't for you, and you can sell it can get most of your $$ back.

Either way you haven't committed more $$ into the deal than you need to, until you have an idea of how it will work out.

The tractor will be useful for log handling, but I'd consider building a home made wooden log deck and loading the logs onto the mill from that. If you mess up and drop a log on that you can rebuild it easily. Drop a log on the frame and bend it, and you have a problem.

Petrol  / diesel? Diesel engines have a better torque curve which is better for milling, and should last longer. But a gas engine is cheaper, and will still last a long time. The mill itself should outlast several engines...  For a first manual mill, just get the gas engine. If you decide to upgrade an go full time, then the diesel is the way to go.

Ian

[AnthonyW]

I have an LT25, the predessor to the LT28. It has the manual log winch, log tuner, and toe boards. I only use the log turner when the log is too big to roll by hand. Rolling by hand is much faster than by the log turner. But is necessary when the log gets too big to do by hand (roughly 20-24" diameter). The manual log winch is a must if you ever planning on going somewhere away from your tractor. How would you get the mill and the tractor both to the job site? The down side to the winch (that I have found) is the log must be nearly straight and centered in order to get it to roll up. I am currently sawing for a friend. This last time he stripped the bark off the logs with an ax. It seems to have made a world of difference in the blade life. It is too bad the LT25/LT28 does not have the option for a debarker. I have not used the toe boards yet. Of all the logs I cut yesterday, I should have used them on one log.

If I was to attempt to do more than my own lumber, friends, and the possible occasional odd job, I would need to upgrade. I now fully understand the want and/or need for hydraulic loading, power feed, and debarker.

[Cedarman]

When I had my old 1983 LT30  , I ended up putting tow boards on.  I find them a must when sawing logs.  I don't think anyone has worn a WM frame out, they may have ruined one, but you won't wear it out.
As I tell my new sawyers, I can teach you to saw with the mill in a day.  You will still be learning to saw cedar for years.

[LeeB]

9 kids  No wonder you're looking for a new hobby.  :D Welcome to the forum. I started with a manual mill. Different brand. Toe boards I would go for, the other stuff might have been nice but not so much as the toe boards. I made enough money with my manual mill to pay for it many times over, sawed a heap of lumber for myself and learned how to saw on it. I do like my hydralics and wouldn't want to go back to manual. WM makes a good mill. You won't be dissapointed with one of their products.

[Jemclimber]

I have a manual mill and a tractor.   I wish (and someday am going to make) I had toe roller adjustment and a turner on the mill. 

Diesel or gas? Depends on whether you think you'll upgrade.  I think the diesel will hold its value if you have the cash to spend and plan to upgrade. I don't think it would be a waste of money,  personal preference though.  If I had the money I would have gone with diesel just because of the fuel issues you seem to already know about.  The mill frame will/should outlast either engine.

Let us know what you choose.

[k9klf]

( Very true insight Lee  :D )
Thank you for so many replies so soon guys. I will certainly NOT use the tractor to load or flip wood on mill as I thought I would after your warnings. Makes sense and that's the kind of knowledge I am hoping to gain from you all without having to learn the hard way.

[Cedarman]

Make a log deck and you can use your tractor to load the deck.  We always used junk wood cants.  If you drop a log and bust a chunk of wood, no big deal.

[terrifictimbersllc]

You've got good advice already but I'll add another point or two to consider.  Good luck with your choices.

$11000 for only a hobby could be almost or just as expensive as $15-20K for business equipment with income. $15-20K and patience could get you a much more productive mill.   With property where logs can be brought, and where you can saw, support equipment already in hand, you could be earning faster than you might think.   

Productivity in sawing with a portable bandmill  is not about getting rich.   it is about what jobs you can take,  what physical demands you will need to make of your body, and what kind of wage you will have earned for all your effort.   And when you go portable you won't be taking the support equipment with you for most of your work.  Sawing time  left after travel, setup& takedown has to be very productive.   

[Magicman]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, k9klf.  I can offer no advice on a manual sawmill, but I would absolutely trust WM and their training.  Also, much help and advice is available here on the FF.  The LT28 is solid and will hold it's value if/when you want to upgrade to an LT40, etc.

"Bells and whistles" on sawmills are not there to make music.  They are all time/labor savers as well as providing accuracy. 

You will need some support tools such as  Logrite cant hook/peavey.

[lls256]

Hi K9klf

I have the LT 28 with the optional log loader and turner.  I primary use the mill for personal use and  from my personal experience, I seldom use the log turner but instead reach for my Logrite cant hook.  It's way, way faster.  In my honest opinion, the log loader is pretty cumbersome. The manual log loader works if your logs are straight,  a uniform  diameter  and round, ie, the loader works well on perfect logs.   I opt instead for   loading logs with my tractor.  One primary problem I have with the log  loader and turner is that  both  attachments are driven by a common hand winch.  If you want to use the log loader and the log turner is connected to the winch, you must first reroute the winch cable   from the turner to the loader.  This also applies if the loader is connected to the winch and want to use the turner.   Changing over the cableing isn't difficult but  is time consuming if you have to do it frequently.  I just leave the log turner connected to the hand winch since I seldom use  the log loader. 

I have the gas 25hp Koehler version and never had any problems with the motor.  If you plan  on using the LT28 for personal use,  the diesel might be an expensive overkill for light duty use.  I love the grunt of a diesel engine but the gasoline version is an efficient option.  Just my opinion.

I'm really happy with my LT28  but could not imagine this particular mill being used for any commercial use, even an occasional milling job.  In all fairness to Woodmizer, the LT28 is considered a hobby mill and not intended for commercial use.   The LT28 does a very good job for it's intended use. Using the LT28 with a helper, could increase your productivity significantly.   I'm for the most part, in a similar situation as you. Most of my use for the mill is personal with an occasional on site milling job. If I were to do it again, I would definitely opt for a hydraulic unit.  I realized that it gets old real quick  walking over to the log and turning them hundreds of time in a cutting session.  This really cuts into your productivity and makes for a very long day. 

Have you considered nixing the diesel option, spending a few bucks more and going for the LT35 or even a good used hydraulic mill?  Good luck.

[drobertson]

I can only add in regards to the training on the mill from wmz, they will show you much of what you need to know on how the mill works, but as to other issues these will have to come by way of the  school of hard knocks.
The idea of having a log deck even with the bed rails is a good idea.  If I were to offer advice it would be go hydraulic.  But this can't always be done right away.  The engine of choice is a hard call, but I like my diesel.  I know of a few that run on gas, and they work just fine as well.  keep us posted,,

[k9klf]

Thank you everyone for today's advice. What I have learned in the past 24 hours is that I am NOT set on an LT28 since hydro's are worth every cent in higher costs, engines will not outlive these bulletproof frames (properly cared for of course), NEVER use the tractor's grapple to load and turn the lumber on the mill, and that working away from home or tractor will necessitate the hydro's even more prominently. I look forward to getting more familiar with the board and will post more questions soon once I have applied all this to my plans and options. Thanks again guys!

[jdonovan]

Is there a notable engine longevity payoff to go with a diesel over a gas like it usually does with a new truck or are these saws and frames worn out before the gas engines are?

Gas engines are a 2-3k hour life span, diesels 2x that. Diesel will use quite a bit less fuel across those hours, and will have higher resale. I think we have some folks on the forum who are on engine 3 on the same frame. So I would not worry about the frame wearing out around the engine.


Hydro's are a HUGE plus but from a LT28, your entry hydro mill, a LT35, is 2-times the price.

If you want to dip your toe in the hobby, and see if this is for you, perhaps make a bit of side money, then a 28 sounds like a fine machine.

[Wisconsintimber]

Hi k9klf.  I see you're not too far down the highway from me.
I see lots of good advice given here regaurding your question.  Some of it depends on your budget and if you want new or used.  You should be able to get more bang for your buck if you are patient and look for used.  I run a homebuilt band mill so I can't give alot of advice, but I'm sure the ones mentioned above whould be a good starting point for a hobby.  I use forks on a skidsteer to load logs on my mill, but normally pull up level with the bunks and roll it on by hand.  A log deck will be handy in the future.

[Joe Hillmann]

When it comes to making money with a manual mill I think it is helpful to find a niche. 

I have a completely manual mill (a winch to raise and lower the head, and I have to push it down the track to cut).  I have done the math and figured if I were to do custom milling for someone else and they were to do the offbearing I may be able to make $15 per hour after expenses.  But I use it to mill my own lumber that I turn into finished products that I then sell.  Doing it that I am earning about $50 per hour after expenses.

There is a company near me that only has a lt15 and they have been in business for at least a couple years so they must have found a way to make money at it.

With an  lt28 you at least don't have the work of pushing the carriage down the track.

I don't know if getting the log roller and toe boards are worth the $1000 they cost but when I have logs to large to turn by cant hook I have to use the tractor and chain which is a "sketchy" process.  If not done right it can bend the stops, drop the log on the bed or in my case knock the mill of the blocking I use to level it.  I also often end up jacking up one end of the log in order to keep the center pith level.  Having the roller and toe boards could save a lot of time and make it safer.  Although for a hobby an extra $1000 may be hard to cough up.

[tgweber]

Few months back I was facing the same dilemma as you. I elected to purchase a used Timber King B20 fully hydraulic over a new Wood Mizer for the same price and so far have not regretted my decision. With a used mill I have setwork, log lift, toe boards, log turner, and log dogs. Over the weekend I cut a 30''x12' yellow pine that I would never have tackled with a manual mill. If you have never worked with a mill before you cannot imagine how heavy wood can be.

[Magicman]

Congratulations on the sawmill tgweber, and Welcome to the Forestry Forum.    You also offered some smart advice.  The value of a used sawmill should never be overlooked.

[k9klf]

I am all for buying a quality-used mill. Are there any classic problems to look for or avoid and is there a "blue book" resource to help me know what mill with a certain amount of hours is priced right?

[customsawyer]

If you find a WM mill that you are interested in, get the serial number and give WM a call. They can tell you everything you need to know about the mill.

[Magicman]

If you find a used Wood-Mizer (WM) get the serial# and give WM a call.  They will look it up and give you an "Orange Book" value.  I suspect that the other manufacturers will also.

I bought my 1998 WM used in 2002.  I have kept it maintained as well as added updates.  It is worth today what I paid for it.

[JB Griffin]

The "manual or hyd" mill question was a no brainer for me as I wanted to make a living with my mill, I went hyd and never looked back and already looking to upgrade to a bigger, faster, DIESEL mill with setworks.

So you need to decide what you are going to do with a mill, hobby or living, the choice is yours and yours alone.  Good luck and welcome to the forum.

[FarmingSawyer]

Welcome to the forum!

I bought a manual mill because that was all I could afford and I had sawmilling experience and trees on my property and buildings in bad need of repair. Within a year the mill had paid for itself and then some. I did some part-time milling for people who brought me logs or from my own wood for specialty beams friends needed to repair their barns.

I had never considered taking my mobile mill mobile...... But then I lost my farm to the Ex. and moved the mill to my woodlot. I got a request from a client I was building a barn for...mill up wood for his new house....sure thing. I took my mill on the road and decided I liked it enough to make it an extra cash kind of deal.....however....several building jobs have fallen through and my part-time-pay-the-credit-cards-down-extra-cash-earner has become my full time job for the time being.

I will say...money can be made with a manual mill, but you have to be moving right along. Today, for instance, I cut 1400bf of pine 1x. My time milling payed me $60/hr average, and I charged by the BF....BUT.... I took the job because the logs were behind the garage and there was no room on either side of the building to get them out except an alley between buildings......my experience as a logger kicked in and I could charge $45--twice the going rate--to winch the logs onto the drive way. My manual mill is also small and light. I don't think the hydraulic mill I have my eye on would have fit on this lot.

I found my niche accidentally. Almost all the work I have gotten has come because other sawyers turned down the jobs....Too small...too difficult..."I only cut pine/hardwood/more than 1000bf/etc...logs aren't in a pile..."I don't cut yard trees/power poles/I don't drop standing trees....."

Being hungry and enjoying the work I do, and knowing a thing or two about trees, wood, milling and how to think outside the box are working in my favor right now.....but I see my manual mill as a means to an end...A larger hydraulic mill! I couldn't keep up the pace of cutting 2-4000fb a week with a manual mill on the road. At my site with my tractor and horses and my own wood...sure. But then again....it helps that I'm a little crazy...come from a long line of woodsmen and have diesel, thickened with sawdust, for blood...... I would have given anything this afternoon for automated setworks and even a drill operated raise and lower function.......the brake is loose on the mill head and the dog didn't set in the chain so when I let go of the crank handle the mill head fell 15 inches and handle whapped my hand twice, at least, before I realized what was happening and that I couldn't stop it falling...... I seriously thought I broke my hand in 5 places.....The bruises came up instantly and my hand was so swollen for a while I couldn't use it....a real beyatch when trying to set chokers and roll logs...... Turns out nothing is broken, just got a good drubbing and thankful my head wasn't close...... guess I'm made of stronger stuff with a high tolerance for pain. I also took a strong dose of an herbal tincture I had on hand....having to use my wrist and hand probably kept it from getting worse....plenty of movement and blood flow....inside and out.....


Still, I couldn't help thinking today as I was milling clear pine 2x20's that it was better than printing money........