Advice Buying Hemlock.....

[FarmingSawyer]

Potential customer contacted me this AM saying they needed 56 4x4x10 and 168 1x6x10 Hemlock ASAP..... could I help. I responded I didn't have much hemlock of my own, they should try the big, local mill...... They responded that they wanted to help out the little guy. Meanwhile I ran into a fella at a pig roast today who, just so happens, to have 30 or so hemlock logs which were just felled....... mostly bucked into 16'6...uh oh.

I'm going to try to arrange seeing the logs tomorrow. I know wood and logs and what I would select from the forest if I were milling for myself. But..... buying is another thing. Anyone able to give me a crash course on softwood log buying? Chances are I won't get it delivered to the mill....I'd have to bring the mill there. Not sure. Last prices I've seen are for NH from the end of last month. Anyone have current Maine price info? What scale would I use?

I'm hoping most of the logs will be 10" or greater....only because it would be nice to get 2-4 4x4 out of them FOHC and 4 1x6 each log....that would go a long way towards making this thing pay, especially if the logs are few and long.....I really don't want to buy 16's to make 10's...... Don't think I can create a specialty market for 6ft hemlock....unless I made it trailer decking of some kind.........

[beenthere]

Tell the log seller you will buy 10' hemlock logs (with some trim allowance) as you don't need or can't use 16'. (that is what your potential customer is saying to you.. that he won't buy 16' 4x4's or 1x6's.).

And, I'd suggest money in hand from potential customer at least to cover any purchase of logs. As this customer may be testing more than one producer to supply his list ASAP. Just don't get caught with logs cut into a lumber order and the customer is no where to be found.

It is up to you to make this thing pay some profit for you. ;)

[SAnVA]

The Hemlocks are about gone in my part of the country, wife and I went for a ride today on a mountain road that was lined with dead Hemlocks only a few with any visible green on them, just about gone like the mighty Chestnut! What a shame!

[mikeb1079]

And, I'd suggest money in hand from potential customer at least to cover any purchase of logs. As this customer may be testing more than one producer to supply his list ASAP. Just don't get caught with logs cut into a lumber order and the customer is no where to be found.

nuff said. 

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

Eastern hemlock that is over 75 years old will often have serious bacterial wetwood in the butt log with lots of shake.  This is why in earlier times, the value of hemlock was not so much for the wood but for the bark.  The bark, with high tannin content (tannic acid), was used for tanning hides.  When a tree was felled, the bark was removed, but the log was left without harvesting it.  It is also why hemlock RR ties never were extremely popular, as the core was often shaky (due to bacteria) and had wetwood that increased the green MC so high that the logs would not float.  That is why many of the logs on the bottom of a harbor or lake in the hemlock area will be hemlock butt logs...nice diameter but not high quality wood.  Bottom line is to check for shake, signs of wetwood, or other "abnormal" appearance in the but logs.  Upper logs seem to be OK, although they may be knotty if open grown.

[FarmingSawyer]

Eastern hemlock that is over 75 years old will often have serious bacterial wetwood in the butt log with lots of shake.    Bottom line is to check for shake, signs of wetwood, or other "abnormal" appearance in the but logs.  Upper logs seem to be OK, although they may be knotty if open grown.

Thanks Gene..... I knew enough to look for shake, but  I didn't suspect the butt log....I recall it being through the whole tree in Doug. Fir or Western Hemlock when it happens. Good reading here, too: https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,1195.0/nowap.html

This knowledge might give me a way of buying those 16 footers at a discount..... cull the bottom 6ft offen every butt log (if they cut them 16'6") and only pay for the upper 10.....

Also very good advice getting cash up front for the logs.... I wouldn't have thought of that, although I used to run a catering company as a side line and always took a deposit on large jobs to pay for ingredients....guess the same applies to lumber.

When I learned the timber trade I was spoiled..... Worked at a mill. If we needed logs we'd break off an go get em ourselves. When we weren't milling we'd go out and do blow-down salvage, mostly getting the logs for free. I miss the ole short bed log truck.....although it's no wonder my hair is gone and what's left is grey...barely any brakes and 3 gearboxes no one ever could figure out. That was in WA. I've only ever seen one short bed Mac here and it was around the corner from my old farm...perhaps I should go talk to the fella about getting it........ The smallest logs we hauled in WA still are barely smaller than the biggest logs I've seen here.

[FarmingSawyer]

Another question, because I've never thought of it before....partly because the fella who trained me to circ. mills could squeeze a 2x4 out of a pencil..... I'm thinking I could probably get 2- 4 4x4's out of a 10" log... taking the 1x6 off the outside...opening cut, producing 6" once edged, then depending on log dia. taking 1 more 1x offen each face before dicing up the 4x's....BUT.... is it wise to split the pith down the center, leaving it on the side of 2- 4x's or on the edge of 4 4x's? What's going to happen in Hemlock--I don't ever cut that much of it--if I do this?
Given my pencil squeezing tendencies...if I were selling my own wood....I'd be tempted to take a 4x each out of a 6" top, split taper sawing.......load up a deck...4 cuts..done. 56 times...

If the logs are large enough then I might do this:


 
Which, to me, is a heck of a waste of wide wood....but I'm not gettin paid for hemlock 1x12..... This, btw, was a junk 4ft elm butt which sawed up into some nice clear railing posts....with 4 of them being quartersawn with a nice pattern.

[delvis]

The best advice I can give you would be to tell the customer to buy the logs and pay you to saw them out into whatever they will yield.  That way, when there is a lot of 6' stuff left over, the customer can decide if he or she wants to pay you to saw those up as well.  You don't want to get stuck with a bunch of short logs you don't have a market for.  I haven't had a lot of luck buying logs for a customer's job.  It's been way easier and a lot less headache to let them get the logs they want sawn. 

We have sawn a fair amount of hemlock over the years and I actually enjoy sawing it.  In my experience, if you're going to try and split the cant into three or four pieces before turning them up and sawing the final product out of them, you're better off not splitting the pith.  Hemlock will curl away like a banana when you split it like this.  The longer the log the worse the curl.

[FarmingSawyer]

Went out into the woods to see the Hemlock.....definitely not cut by a logger! Almost all the logs were cut to 16'6" no accounting for best grade or market. Excavator doing the work figured they're worth $$$$ still. I scaled up a bunch deducting for sweep, shake and other defects and got the amount I needed....but it would have to come from some 16's, 14's and 12's. I allowed for this in my scaling. Got a call into the customer to see if he can use shorts or needs longer than 10ft.

I also made an offer on the Hemlock given what I saw, based on what pricing I could find online. $170/1Mbf was rejected out of hand..... Figured I had to try, because this stuff is smaller than a big mill wants. So I offered $200/ 1M and I think the fella accepted it, but balked at loading it...so, I'd have to find someone to haul it around the corner to my mill. Excavator figures he could have one of the local mills come and pick it up with no hassle to him. So I called the mill here which cuts Hemlock......

Had a great chat about Hemlock grades, scale, defects, log length.....this mill which the Excavator thinks will buy his junk won't come get it, starts their scale at 10" and up on 16fts and buys mainly 8fts....... They are paying $240/1M IF their standards are met. I didn't see a single log which would make their scale. And there isn't even a full truckload of Hemlock to bother taking to the mill.......

Once I hear back from my customer I'll decide what to do....whether I go looking for someone to haul this stuff over to me, or walk away and let the fella figure out his stuff is junk and shoulda sold it to me......

[Magicman]

or walk away and let the fella figure out his stuff is junk and shoulda sold it to me......

There are times when that is the absolute best thing to do.  It cuts the bully down to size and established the fact that you are a "rubber meets the road/take no prisoners" businessman.

[FarmingSawyer]

or walk away and let the fella figure out his stuff is junk and shoulda sold it to me......

There are times when that is the absolute best thing to do.  It cuts the bully down to size and established the fact that you are a "rubber meets the road/take no prisoners" businessman.

Yup...I haven't heard anything yet, but I'm feeling like cutting this good ole Maine boy and his sneering ways right off at the stump..... He all but said to me "ye ain't from around here are ye?" Too bad for him.....I got a Maine pedigree going farther back than when his great-granpappy was a tadpole. I've seen the attitude time and again from fellas of his generation..... Older or younger never have a problem.

Meanwhile I've got a call in to a logger I know to see if he has a handle on any hemlock....it won't be junk and would be worth every penny of the $240...and might even come delivered.

[woodmills1]

2 things for sure

get up front money for the logs

and what Gene said about shake.........free hemlock so what, but ifin ya bees payin