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Steel building questions

Started by DeerMeadowFarm, September 30, 2014, 11:26:52 AM

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DeerMeadowFarm

Hi guys - Not directly wood related but there are a lot of experienced members on here so I figured I'd ask:
I bought a never-assembled-still strapped on the pallets steel building off of CL last night. It is this brand/style except there are no end walls:
http://usbuildingsdirect.com/a-model-steel-buildings.htm

It is a 24' wide by 35' long by 13' high building. I got it for $2,500. I hope to store my farm implements in it. It will be located in an area on the farm where I can't get a cement truck to so I plan on sinking tubes level with the gravel pad. It's not a very tall building and it would be nice to drive the tractor in with a wagon full of hay at times when it starts to rain right after baling so I was thinking; could I build a 4' high stud wall to lift the whole building up? Of course I'd have to tie in end walls right away to stabilize it, but can this be done? ???

florida

Years ago a local garage had its roof removed and a  steel building like that put on top of the walls and they had t get a permit to do the work so I'd say it can be done.
General contractor and carpenter for 50 years.
Retired now!

brendonv

My friend has one i considered buying at one point and doing as you say.

On another note, if you don't end up using it lemme know!
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Holmes

  If it could be done with concrete it would require a 4' deep trench, 2' wide footing, 7' tall 8" thick foundation wall.  If you can build a wooden foundation as described then it could be done.  If I put the building on top of a 4' wall I would be worried that joint could blow out by snow load or wind.  The building also needs to be held down. They can make excellent kites. ::)
Think like a farmer.

snowstorm

it only would take 15.5yds of concrete for a 6" slab. i did the ground work on a horse barn a couple yrs ago. the owner was a dr. he found the design in a book liked it so it had to be . he didnt want a concrete floor. so we set 6x6 wood in the ground down 6' these were not only for the Connors but for every stall. in this case concrete would have been much less $$. 2 yrs later he sold the place and moved

DeerMeadowFarm

Yah, I'd like concrete, but there is no way I can get a truck up there. My farm is on a south-facing slope and the fields have a 100+ years of cow manure on them; a truck would either tip or sink out of sight. :(

beenthere

So that cow manure must be getting pretty thick by now..  ;D
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

sandhills

I'd do it in a heartbeat, but like you said tie the end walls in right away.  I helped a neighbor a few years ago that had an old hog finishing shed, I think it was something like 80'x120' with an 8' ceiling? but we raised it 16' and made it into a machine shed, had it raised, studded, and wrapped in one day.  Only took half the community and 12 telehandlers to do it!  :D  Worked out good though so anything's possible, I'd think you'd be fine with your plan. 

Dave Shepard

The best way to do it if you can't get in there to pour concrete would be to build what is called pony wall from concrete blocks. The blocks are something like 2'x2'x6' and have a groove on the bottom and a ridge on the top. Stack them two tall and they are very stable. They are also great for buildings where you are going to scoop something out of them like sand.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

DeerMeadowFarm

That works out to over 3,000 lbs. each if I did it right. My tractor can only lift 2,400. :(

red oaks lumber

not to sound like a smart mouth but, if you are concerned that a cement truck won't make it up for various reasons,what makes you think you'll get a full wagon of hay up there? seems to me you need to make a road to your site for constuction as well as future uses.
i have a saying, if you start cutting corners you'll soon have a round shape which will forever keep you going in circles. :) spend the time and do it right once. just how i see things.
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

DeerMeadowFarm

You don't sound like a smart mouth but I think you're comparing apples to oranges. I put about 150 bales of hay on a wagon. At 50 pounds each that's 7,500. Tractor weighs around 5,000; wagon say 2,000 just to have a round number. You're looking at 14,500 total and that's on a high estimate. According to Google, a cement truck weighs 26,000 pounds empty; almost twice as much!

Dave Shepard

You can get concrete trucks in some weird places. Especially if you have a D-8. :D
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

snowstorm

Quote from: Dave Shepard on October 01, 2014, 04:48:12 PM
The best way to do it if you can't get in there to pour concrete would be to build what is called pony wall from concrete blocks. The blocks are something like 2'x2'x6' and have a groove on the bottom and a ridge on the top. Stack them two tall and they are very stable. They are also great for buildings where you are going to scoop something out of them like sand.
i have built retaining walls with them. used to be able to buy them for $35 each. even saw a garage built from them. painted yellow of all things

red oaks lumber

the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

Holmes

I see on WorcesterCL ,retaining wall blocks  6'x30"x18". If they were installed level you could bolt the frame to it and gain 30".  That would be better than a 2x4 knee walls.
Think like a farmer.

justallan1

If I were to set that shed on a wall of any kind I think I'd bury the outside of your sub wall as much as possible. I believe most of those sheds get their load strength from tying the sides together via your anchoring system.
Just my .02

Allan

DeerMeadowFarm

Quote from: red oaks lumber on October 01, 2014, 08:27:01 PM
you completly missed my point :)

I guess I did. Can you explain it to me better? I get the idea of a road. I've spent over $50K on my 1/3 mile road to my house over the years that I drive on at least twice a day every day, but I hardly see the need to build a road to a building where anything I would drive out there can traverse the field "roads" that exist now.

Dave Shepard

Don't underestimate a cement truck, only the driver. :D
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

DeerMeadowFarm

Quote from: Holmes on October 01, 2014, 09:44:18 PM
I see on WorcesterCL ,retaining wall blocks  6'x30"x18". If they were installed level you could bolt the frame to it and gain 30".  That would be better than a 2x4 knee walls.
That looks like a good idea, but I'd need a footing for those as well no?

Banjo picker

Quote from: Holmes on September 30, 2014, 07:08:34 PM
  The building also needs to be held down. They can make excellent kites. ::)

I'm with Holmes.  The concrete makes for more than a nice floor, its an anchor.  You could get 16 or so yards back there in a back hoe bucket or rent a motorized Georgia buggy.  Would be slow, but could be done.  Banjo
Never explain, your friends don't need it, and your enemies won't believe you any way.

DeerMeadowFarm

Quote from: Banjo picker on October 08, 2014, 09:17:35 PM
Quote from: Holmes on September 30, 2014, 07:08:34 PM
  The building also needs to be held down. They can make excellent kites. ::)

I'm with Holmes.  The concrete makes for more than a nice floor, its an anchor.  You could get 16 or so yards back there in a back hoe bucket or rent a motorized Georgia buggy.  Would be slow, but could be done.  Banjo

I had to google "georgia buggy"; pretty neat. I guess I could bucket it over to the site with my tractor if I was convinced I needed to have a cement floor.
As far as tieing it down, the kit has a c-channel that is fastened to the footing (or knee wall in my case?) with bolts. The channel is mounted with the "c" up. The hoops are wide corregations and bolt to the inner part of the upright "C". When all the hoops are up you are supposed to "grout" the whole thing by filling the upright "c" with cement.

Holmes

The footing would depend on how long you want the building to stand straight.   You could dig down a few feet and fill with crushed stone then put the retaining blocks on that, but it will not guaranty the blocks won't get moved by frost.
Think like a farmer.

Banjo picker

You may not need a concrete floor, but that 15 yards of concrete weighs 60750 lbs... that's a pretty good anchor for a kite.  But Its your building, do what ever you want.  Banjo
Never explain, your friends don't need it, and your enemies won't believe you any way.

Al_Smith

FWIW years ago I've seen the old galvanized steel quonset type barns raised up with 3-4 feet concrete block walls .If they didn't the cow manure would rust out the steel .

Of course that means digging a footer and laying  up block .Back to the old concrete truck thing again .

beenthere

Probably could dig in some treated posts that have a cross post at the bottom and a corner brace angled up to hold it from tipping back. Would just need a trench at each major frame location.  They may move a bit from frost, but if down 4' should not move much.

Could use some timber framing techniques to set in the brace.

Just a thought. But I don't think those shed arches are going to have outward thrust from snow load. I think they are designed to hold the load without tying it across the bottom.
I didn't look real close, but maybe there is factory data to show how much load they will take before pushing out the bottom.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

red oaks lumber

 to do this project the right way you need to begin with making the building acessable to a cement truck .if theres a 100 yrs of cow manure,by now its black dirt so scrape it down to the top soil and sell it. with the money from the dirt it should cover the cost of the cement. my opinion in the long run you will be much happier with the results and you won't struggle trying to use your building. :)
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

Al_Smith

Just as general information those fabricated arch buildings have pretty good structural integrety .My brother has one made basicaly by using rolled seams .In fact there are several larger of this type in the area and one is in fact up on 8 feet poured concrete walls .

These are not like those 800 dollar car ports .They are strong because of the arch and will hold a snow load .Actually because of the arch most of the snow slides off .

Josef

Interesting thread, your hoop building, depending on it's design, will have different structural requirements regarding foundations. The primary concern in a building this small will be wind uplift and the diaphram pushing effect at the base trying to push the walls apart under load. Regardless of the foundation material selection, these two items need to be addressed.

The foundation (footings) of the typical steel building are designed to keep the building from being lifted out of the ground by wind uplift, more so than the effect of the weight of the building i.e.keeping it from sinking into the ground under the live/dead load. If you are confident that the materials as installed can tie it to the ground adequately then go for it.

The knee wall you mention will add to the diaphram stress addressed in the design of the structure itself by the engineers who sized and calculated the metal configurations for the free standing building as engineered. All buildings exert stress outward on their foundations and these are compensated for by various means, in very large timber frames it is sometimes found that buttress structures are the only thing that keeps them from bowing out and collapsing. In a typical steel frame structure the concrete floor can be designed to tie opposite structural frames together to prevent them from spreading under load.

In the type of structure you've purchased the u shaped panels do double duty, they are both structure and skin, ideally if they are engineered sufficiently the panels are designed to absorb and withstand this diaphram load, and do this with a continuous structural member from peak to footing. When you add a knee wall you assume the responsibility to design it to adequately extend and transfer that structural integrity to the footing.

The primary emphasis would be to design it to prevent the joint from being the weakest point in the building, essentially you need to build it to be able to survive the substantial loading outward when the wall is loaded by wind (think sail effect) and snow (think downward weight causing the wall to bow outward). Will the wall and its fasteners be able to accommodate these loads. If the knee wall is not extended below grade you essentially create two hinge points further exacerbating the design considerations. And building without the benefit of endwall ties and the inherent lateral support they provide adds to the challenge.

If you can build the knee wall stout enough go for it, it's done all the time, and there are probably thousand of these building erected this way. Your building is small enough to make this type of construction easy to accommodate, but this is one of those times where oversizing is probably a good idea without having an engineer tell you what you need structurally.

Sorry this got so long, and probably all this opinion and 5 bucks will get you a coffee at your favorite coffee shop.
In my house I'm the boss, I know this because my wife said so, I only hope she doesn't change her mind!

New to me Timber Harvester that I'm learning to operate, been building a home built mill for a while, should be ready to make sawdust with it someday if I ever quit "modifying" the design.

DeerMeadowFarm

Good points Josef. I will be building end walls as well so I think I'll be able to tie in the sides this way.

Josef

A point of reference (or trivia) for your planning, the building structure as sold would have probably had a UL-90 wind uplift rating, meaning it should be able to still be there in the morning after a 90 mph wind storm when erected in accordance with the manufacturers guidelines. That same 90 mph wind would impact the side of the building with about 21psf, doing the math thats over 10,000 pounds of sideways force on a 35' wide x 14' high wall. If you put a horizontal joint in that wall secured only by the fasteners thru the structural members joining the upper and lower sections of the wall the fasteners and those structural members need to be able to withstand that force.
In my house I'm the boss, I know this because my wife said so, I only hope she doesn't change her mind!

New to me Timber Harvester that I'm learning to operate, been building a home built mill for a while, should be ready to make sawdust with it someday if I ever quit "modifying" the design.

Holmes

  thank you  Josef  that is a great explanation of why the knee wall can fail.
Think like a farmer.

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