Milling rates

[FarmingSawyer]

What is everyone getting a board foot for custom milling mobile or stationary?

After a lot of though I settled on $0.35. It seems to be the average around here. I've had mostly acceptance of the rate. But recently lost a job--without even quoting my other fees-- because I was too high. "Another guy only charges $0.20.... Of course he isn't any good..."

Figuring my manual bandmill costs me about $0.03/bf to run I can't imagine doing it for $0.17... And that guy prolly has a wm hydraulic which would cost $$ more. Ugh.

[tmarch]

With my manual mill I get .30 for slabs and .35 if they want them edged on the mill or cut into cants.  I usually cut for windbreak material so most just take the slabs, if they want lumber or a particular size board they can cut it with a circular saw.

[thecfarm]

A member posted,I never lost money on a job I did not get.
You have to make money.

[Brad_bb]

That makes a heck of a lot of sense thecfarm!  If a job is a loser, you don't want it anyway if possible, right?

[Chuck White]

It must be remembered that every part of the country charges a different rate, then to, when you ask "what do you get for custom sawing", you need to let it be known whether the logs belong to you or your customer!

I refer to custom sawing as sawing a customers logs to his specifications.

[NCDiesel]

I learned three things in my career, and I am sure they transcend all industries:

Not every customer is worth having.
Not every project is is worth having.
Not every deal is worth having.

In fact, the fastest way to ruin a competitor is to let him keep underbidding himself and let him keep all the customers stupid enough to let him do it to himself.

Bid by the numbers and make no apologies.

Hope this helps!

PS:   Time for the long joke:


A mechanic at the bar starts complaining - "I am losing money like crazy!" he tells the bartender.  Almost on queue an acquaintance pops in and asks the mechanic about an engine rebuild.  The mechanic knows the car, ta;lked with guy in this very bar a month ago and worked on his car at that time.  So he feels safe in bidding site unseen.  But he is determined to not lose money this time.   So instead of bidding 2200, which is razor thin margins, he gives him a price of 2500.   The acquaintance balks and says "I know a guy who will do it for $2200!".  So the mechanic, watching an opportunity to stay busy and keep the lights on slip away, bids $2100.  They shake hands, set up an appointment, the customer walks away and the mechanic orders a congratulatory beer for himself.   The bartender brings it but says it "on the house".   The mechanic asks why and the bartender says:

Because you need the money.  You were the one to bid 2200 a month a go.  You just beat yourself for a job.

Be careful about chasing every ball in the giutter - they are usually dirty and not worth having.  Don't be a reverse snob -but be really suspicious of low price wars.

[redprospector]

Hahaha. That joke reminded me of one of my competitors in the forest thinning business.
He was always busy, always the "low price leader", and always loosing on jobs.
He was at the point of giving up and going to work for someone else, when he put in for a federal grant through the USDA Forest Service for equipment. They bought him a new F-450 4x4, a new PJ 20K equipment trailer, a new Big Tex 20K dump trailer with a log loader mounted on it, and some other equipment. With no payments of any kind on his equipment he has been able to continue to underprice his work for the last 12 years since he got the grant. I talked to him yesterday and he's about ready to quit again. He said there's no money in this line of work. I just smiled and listened to him complain.
Milling is the same way, if you don't know your costs it's hard to do anything other than guess at a price.

[Okrafarmer]

Figure out where you believe it would be profitable, and then add about 20%.

[drobertson]

A hard pill to swallow, but one that I have come to realize, and it is an old saying, " a bird in hand is better than two in the bush"  It almost sounds like you might be new to milling? if so, I would be inclined to take the job for less than you normally charge, but if you have plenty of work then by all means keep your pricing.

[FarmingSawyer]

A hard pill to swallow, but one that I have come to realize, and it is an old saying, " a bird in hand is better than two in the bush"  It almost sounds like you might be new to milling? if so, I would be inclined to take the job for less than you normally charge, but if you have plenty of work then by all means keep your pricing.

Not new to milling, band or circular....just new to playing the mobile game. I was tempted to drop my price to get the job, but it was far away and anyone who would pay 20cents a bf to have poorly milled lumber and accept it is likely to be a pita in other ways.......

I just finished a 3 week milling job for one of my regular clients I've been building a barn for. I took the job and accepted it at my regular hourly wage because I would be doing lots of different things during a regular milling day. What it focused for me was the costs--material and physical--in running a mill on the road. I made out ok this way, but I probably lost money on bands, fuel to drag the mill there and didn't quite get what I needed to feel comfortable about insurance, taxes, etc...... Every other day my wage is generous by local standards.

I also ran into a busy sawyer from VT who only now charges by the hour. He was advising the crowd at the fair to only hire unknown sawyers by the BF........ Here's the rub and walking the line between years of experience and skill which deserves to be paid for...and breaking into a new market.

[Chuck White]

One other point that should be brought up to a potential customer who doesn't like your milling price is to point out how much he/she actually saves by not having to load and haul the logs to a sawmill, then go get the lumber afterwords!

[terrifictimbersllc]

........ But recently lost a job--without even quoting my other fees-- because I was too high.  "Another guy only charges $0.20.... Of course he isn't any good..."

Just responding to your statement that you lost a job because you were too high.  You're not going to get a job from every inquiry. There are serious inquiries and other kinds.   That guy may have a stack of logs,  alongside a mountain of other work around his house he'll never get to, and I wouldn't even try to figure out why.   He won't even know.   

[goose63]

I have had guys ask how much I charge I tell them if you pull the slabs and lumber it x dollars if I do it its double and the wood has to be ready. if I have to do chain saw work its extra and wrecked blades are $25 most are ok with that I think some are just shopping for a cheep deal.
I don't lose any thing on a job I don't get 

[Hale87]

Reputation is paramount in a business like ours. I start with looking at reputation myself then quality of work, then the price. There's no shame in using the cheapest guy in town if his work is up to your standards. Not always but quite often it seems like the opinion on this board is that looking for a cheap price is bad. Submitting bids runs a lot of this free market place and economy we call home. A lot of times cheaper simply means the guy is more efficient at what he does. Another approach is to charge more and work less. I'm all for that,,,,, the work less part especially. 

[backwoods sawyer]

I gave my first customer a $.05 bft discount off what my rates are now, it was a big job so that nickle added up. He was a pita and I had worked in less then desireble conditions the first time around.

Few years later he had another mid sized job but was issistant that I give him a nickle discount. I turned him down, if i gave him a discount word of mouth gets around and everyone would want a discount as well.

He called me back later whining about the extra "Hidden" cost the stationary mill that he had taken the logs to had tacked onto their lower rate making the total higher then my bft rate, plus the added trucking cost :

Now he calls me and pays my regular rates with out complaint.

[New Brunswick]

I have a hard time charging or coming up with a price for sawing, but my milling to date has been mostly for myself or to help out others. Though I only saw logs people bring to me, I generally charge by the hour, or for free if it is a small job and friends or family. I have 3 jobs to do in the next little bit, 2 are milling customers logs at my place, and the other is to supply 2x8 hemlock for a local farmer who is re doing a floor in his barn. For this job, I will have to go cut a few trees and yard them in and mill them, so I am thinking of doing this by the bf. Hemlock in the round is selling for $270.00 per thous, then take out trucking out of that, you do not get much for your time and work. I am thinking $0.45 a board foot would be fair? I have seen others advertise it for .50 to .90 bf.

The other jobs cutting others logs I told them $35.00 per hr for just me milling and if they wanted to help that would be great, and if not, I am hiring 2 boys who live close to me to help and pay them 10 dollars each an hr, so cost of milling would be $55.00 per hr. I don't know either if that is too high or low?

[blade69001]

The other jobs cutting others logs I told them $35.00 per hr for just me milling and if they wanted to help that would be great, and if not, I am hiring 2 boys who live close to me to help and pay them 10 dollars each an hr, so cost of milling would be $55.00 per hr. I don't know either if that is too high or low?

  At $35 an hour for you and $10 an hour for each of your helpers, who is paying the mill time?

  Say you pay yourself $25 an hour, then insurance, Social security, and self employment tax are going to eat up the remaining $10 an hour. Even if the two helpers are paid for directly by the customer you are still not paying for the mill at that rate.
I charge by the piece and do ok with it but I run a resaw and my volume is higher than most on here, at the end of the day I have to make enough to pay for the equipment and operational expense of said equipment.
Sean P.

[drobertson]

A hard pill to swallow, but one that I have come to realize, and it is an old saying, " a bird in hand is better than two in the bush"  It almost sounds like you might be new to milling? if so, I would be inclined to take the job for less than you normally charge, but if you have plenty of work then by all means keep your pricing.

Not new to milling, band or circular....just new to playing the mobile game. I was tempted to drop my price to get the job, but it was far away and anyone who would pay 20cents a bf to have poorly milled lumber and accept it is likely to be a pita in other ways.......

I just finished a 3 week milling job for one of my regular clients I've been building a barn for. I took the job and accepted it at my regular hourly wage because I would be doing lots of different things during a regular milling day. What it focused for me was the costs--material and physical--in running a mill on the road. I made out ok this way, but I probably lost money on bands, fuel to drag the mill there and didn't quite get what I needed to feel comfortable about insurance, taxes, etc...... Every other day my wage is generous by local standards.

I also ran into a busy sawyer from VT who only now charges by the hour. He was advising the crowd at the fair to only hire unknown sawyers by the BF........ Here's the rub and walking the line between years of experience and skill which deserves to be paid for...and breaking into a new market.

I hear ya!  in this case, stay your course for sure, no need to get into a rut you don't need,  there are those that have tight grips, this one sounds like it,  I prefer quality over quantity any day of the week, just the way it has to be for me,  hope all goes well!

[New Brunswick]

My mill is just a hobby as I have a day job, but I understand your math though blade if I were to profit and replace machines and pay all the other. The people that I mill for are usually farmers or locals who value their trees and to have them milled for their use, but at the same time, have to watch the dollar pretty sharp. I guess its not fair maybe for me to comment and hijack Farmingsawyer thread here, as for now, I like to make enough to pay cost of milling and pay for repairs and blades and operating and if there is any left, great...buy a new tool.

[Hale87]

"I am thinking $0.45 a board foot would be fair?"

That's the going rate for hemlock here in south central PA.

[Brad_S.]

I am thinking $0.45 a board foot would be fair? I have seen others advertise it for .50 to .90 bf.

If the going rate is .50 to .90 per bdft, why do you feel the need to sell at .45? Go with the going rate. If those other rates are from full time mills, you will tick them off by undercutting them. They need to get those prices to stay in business. By undercutting them, you are stealing from them and you are not in this as a business, just a hobby.
Around me, other mills may technically be competitors but when the other mills are too busy or the job is not what they normally do, they send work to each other. To play a game of cut throat is not in any ones best interest. To have a hobbist play the game though invokes the wrath of all.
Last time I sold hemlock around here the rate was .60-.70 but that was 7 years ago.

[redprospector]

I am thinking $0.45 a board foot would be fair? I have seen others advertise it for .50 to .90 bf.

If the going rate is .50 to .90 per bdft, why do you feel the need to sell at .45? Go with the going rate. If those other rates are from full time mills, you will tick them off by undercutting them. They need to get those prices to stay in business. By undercutting them, you are stealing from them and you are not in this as a business, just a hobby.
Around me, other mills may technically be competitors but when the other mills are too busy or the job is not what they normally do, they send work to each other. To play a game of cut throat is not in any ones best interest. To have a hobbist play the game though invokes the wrath of all.
Last time I sold hemlock around here the rate was .60-.70 but that was 7 years ago.

Very well put.
I have nothing against anyone that wants to saw for a hobby. Just don't pretend you're in business...pick one.
What is fair about undercutting someone who has done the math to make a living just because you can? Robin Hood syndrome? Rob from those "rich" saw millers and give to those "poor" farmers?  :D

[tmarch]

There's lots of different charges that come into play when pricing, the prices I listed are for customers logs delivered to my mill and the lumber hauled away.  If I have to cut the tree, bring it to my mill and stack and sticker it until it's sold and picked up, the price goes up for each step.
As far as undercutting the competition, that's not all 1 sided either.  I may operate for more or less than the competition, that doesn't mean I'm making more or less.  Competition will sort the winners and losers, always has & always will as long as we have a free market.

[Dave Shepard]

I am thinking $0.45 a board foot would be fair? I have seen others advertise it for .50 to .90 bf.

If the going rate is .50 to .90 per bdft, why do you feel the need to sell at .45? Go with the going rate. If those other rates are from full time mills, you will tick them off by undercutting them. They need to get those prices to stay in business. By undercutting them, you are stealing from them and you are not in this as a business, just a hobby.
Around me, other mills may technically be competitors but when the other mills are too busy or the job is not what they normally do, they send work to each other. To play a game of cut throat is not in any ones best interest. To have a hobbist play the game though invokes the wrath of all.
Last time I sold hemlock around here the rate was .60-.70 but that was 7 years ago.

Just to play devil's advocate here. If it costs me $0.80 per board foot to supply 2x construction lumber, shouldn't the giant softwood mills raise their price to match mine? :D

[FarmingSawyer]

Good discussions going on here..... I just checked Uncle Henry's (the local want ads) and the big mills are luring in customers with promise of 25 cent to 45 cent a bf for pine boards 1X in all sizes...... Looking at the fine print, the price rises steeply from there. Those are utility grade prices....if you want tight know T&G flooring it's $2.05 a bf..... 1x8 "mountain grade"--probably #2 common....goes for 50 cents...... those are all prices for T&G or S4S.

When we bill ourselves as custom mills....we need to emphasize the "custom" to our customers.....they can get what they want...here and now.... their logs or ours.... sure it might be rough sawn....but....if you give them a quality product then charge them a "quality" price.....

Before I bought my mill I was using a local sawmill to supply me with beams and T&G siding. They were charging an average of .70 for rough sawn beams and .50 for the T&G special orders...occasionally I could get a deal on the T&G when it was leftovers from another order.  The wood was nothing special to be sure......Then one day they jacked their prices to 1.20bf for beams and .75 for the siding without notice. It had already irked me that I had to buy wood....having worked at a sawmill and married into the family with the hopes of getting ownership someday..I hadn't had to buy wood for over 18 years...... For my next project it was cheaper to buy the band mill than buy the boards. I was still married to the sawyer's daughter so it was an easy sell.....lucky I still have the mill now we're divorced......

I'm sure this isn't just a Maine thing....everyone wants something for nothing until they have something to sell..... If I was selling my own wood the price would vary based on grade, special, quality, etc. Milling someone elses....I think I'll strike the median and go with something more than the least, and less than the most while still being able to cover my costs and make enough money to feel good about it. And be sure to quote for all of the extra charges: metal strikes, moving the mill, mileage, peeling dirty bark, etc.....