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Do you need to spray for beetles?

Started by Brad_bb, September 29, 2014, 10:47:41 PM

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Brad_bb

New to owning a mill.  When you saw a green log, do you need to spray it (the milled lumber) with a borate solution to prevent beetles from boring holes?  A guy wants me to mill a small walnut log for him...   I bought some green sawn white oak in the past and beetles made their little piles until it dried enough that they stopped.

If the answer is yes, What is the name of the product I should use and where do I order it?  I also need to order some Anchor seal....
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Ribsy

I use Tim-Bor which comes in 5 gallon buckets. White powder mixes w/ water. It kills mold and is an insecticide if kept out of the weather. Seems to work well, but brings your costs up. I only use it when I think I am succeptible to the mold or am concerned about bugs. I get mine at Amazon. They have Anchorseal as well. Good luck.
Engaged in tree work, tree removal, milling and and processing said product into high quality and well seasoned lumber slabs and firewood.

WDH

The beetle that you need to be worried about is the powderpost beetle.  It infests dry hardwood boards that are about 20% moisture content or less.  The beetle that infests the green log or a log from a dead or dying tree is the ambrosia beetle.  They are harmless but they do leave those holes in the wood.

The most susceptible wood is the ring porous hardwoods like the oaks, hickory, pecan, and ash.  Down here in the deep South, the powderpost beetles will find your stickered lumber and ruin it.  So, I spray most of my hardwood lumber.

The chemical that you need is Disodium Octaborate Tetrahydrate.  It comes in a 98% formulation and delivers about 20% boron, which is what kills the bugs.

Google it.  It comes in several brand names, Timbor for one that has already been mentioned.  It is labeled as an insecticide.  It is also labeled as a fertilizer supplement as a source of boron in liquid fertilizer formulations.  Two brand names are Solubor and Beau-Ron D.  These three products are all 98% Disodium Octaborate Tetrahydrate, but the fertilizer additives are much less expensive. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Brad_bb

I've only seen the powder post, while the oak was still green and drying.  It seems once the moisture content got low enough, no more powder post.  In the winter up here, I'm thinking there is no activity.  I just need it for the summer months.  Thanks for the input guys.

If you buy Tim-bor or Solubor, what is the approximate mix ratio? 
How thoroughly do you spray the lumber?  trying to figure how long it will go....
Do you use a garden sprayer to something that will atomize it better?
Finally, what is the toxicity to us?  What safety gear do I need- just a dust mask, a respirator?
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

beenthere

QuoteA guy wants me to mill a small walnut log for him...

Brad, for the walnut you won't need anything. IMO

And per WDH
QuoteThe most susceptible wood is the ring porous hardwoods like the oaks, hickory, pecan, and ash.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Ianab

QuoteFinally, what is the toxicity to us?  What safety gear do I need- just a dust mask, a respirator?

It's not considered acutely toxic, but don't go drinking the stuff. Gloves and a mask should be plenty of protection.

As a food additive it's known as E285. It's not allowed to be used in the US, but in many other places it's allowed. I'd say off all the things you could spray for bugs, it's about the least toxic to us.

But walnut wood already contains Juglone which is another natural insecticide (and herbicide). It's probably more toxic already then the borate. You will hear about some people getting skin rashes etc from handling walnut? That's what  scares the bugs away too.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

WDH

Brad,

Those beetles that you are talking about in the green and drying oak are not powderpost beetles.  They are ambrosia beetles.  Powderpost beetles like the wood after it is dry, like in your house  :)

Mix at least 1 pound of 98% Disodium Octaborate Tetrahydrate powder to 1 gallon of water.  I usually mix 1.25 pounds per gallon or about 6 pounds per 5 gallons of water to make it a little stronger.     

You can treat about 100 BF per gallon of mix.  Spray it on the board until the board is wet.  The board will absorb the chemical.  The borate is very safe.  Google the label and read about the hazards.

I use a 25 gallon ATV spray tank that sprays at 60 psi.  It uses a diaphram pump and a battery power pack (DC).  A pump-up or back-pack sprayer will work you to death.  Here is an example of one from Tractor Supply. 

http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/countylinereg%3B-deluxe-spot-sprayer-25-gal
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

LaneC

Man makes plans and God smiles

WDH

Nope.  The powderpost beetle that is so bad in hardwood does not infest pine, so the risk is much lower. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

terrifictimbersllc

Whenever I see the title of this thread it first looks like "Do you need to pray for beetles?"
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

PineNut

I must have a different kind of pine but the power post beetles love my SYP

Left Coast Chris

Here in Ca, the powder post beetles attack the sap wood of the black walnut.  I spray my black walnut with Timbor and that does the trick.

Your black walnut can get attacked. (FYI)
Home built cantilever head, 24 HP honda mill, Case 580D, MF 135 and one Squirel Dog Jack Russel Mix -- Crickett

WDH

I have had them in the sapwood, too.  They actually like walnut sapwood, at least here in GA. 

PineNut, are you sure that they are powderpost beetles?  When are they getting into your pine?
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

caveman

If you discover powder post beetles in stickered, air drying live oak would it be effective to spray with a boron solution or is it only good as a preventative?  Thanks, Caveman
Caveman

YellowHammer

Quote from: WDH on October 01, 2014, 08:16:22 PM
I have had them in the sapwood, too.  They actually like walnut sapwood, at least here in GA. 
smiley_thumbsup Alabama too

Quote from: caveman on October 01, 2014, 10:15:56 PM
If you discover powder post beetles in stickered, air drying live oak would it be effective to spray with a boron solution or is it only good as a preventative?

It won't penetrate deep enough into the wood to kill an existing infestation, but it will form an effective insecticide barrier and kill bugs as they bore out, and new ones as they bore in. 
The only sure way I know to kill an infestation is heat, either in a kiln sterilization cycle, or a bonfire.
YH

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

WDH

Supposedly there is a chemical called Bora-Care that has the borate plus some other stuff like some type of glycol that is supposed to be a remedial treatment for an infestation.  I have never tried any, and it looks real expensive.  You can google it and research it. 

Heat is probably your best bet. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Glenn1

I have some walnut that is air drying and my moisture meter has a reading of 54%.  Should I use the Timbor now or wait until it gets down to to the mid 25% range?
Vacutherm IDry, Nyle 53 Kiln, New Holland Skid Steer, Kaufman Gooseneck Trailer, Whitney 32A Planer

Brad_bb

Very interesting information.  1lb to 1 gallon means it will be easy to sue a lot, especially if you really have to wet all the surfaces.  I wonder if you really need that volume of product.  What I mean is, I have a vineyard that I have to spray Sevin for Japanese Beetles several times from the 3rd week of June to about mid August.   Originally I started out with a garden sprayer, and it used quite a bit of material.  But then I was advised to switch to a backpack leafblower type sprayer.  It atomized the spray so much finer that it was more like a fogger.  It gave better coverage and cut down on the amount of chemical used by at least half.  So I wonder if that would be true for the Tim-Bor/bora-care too?

How do you fellas spray the product, before you stack and sticker, or after?
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

backwoods sawyer

As it goes on the stickers, flip them over and get all sides.

Or dip them.

When running production we had a dip tank before the kiln and a 8 spray nozzels as it came out of the planer.

I have worked with two style of dipping, one you set two units (each one 1,500 bft on stickers) on a platform and the units were
submurged and raised, after they had slowed down on dripping they went to the kiln.
The other was two lug chains that took the board under several sets of hold down arms as they traveled thru the long shallow dip tank.  Another mill i spent time around used a similar chain fed dip tank but it was a deep nerrow tank and the lug chains would take them down around a sproket and back up.
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

YellowHammer

I apply with a power sprayer as the wood is being stickered.  I don't necessarily spray every load of wood, many times I make a decision based on the species of lumber, the time or season of  the year, and how long before it goes into the kiln to get sterilized.
Also, these little critters will get into stickers and infest successive loads and I've had the joyful experience of pulling an air dried lumber stack apart only to find holes in the boards in a straight line directly under where the stickers had been placed.
Cost of prevention and time spent applicating is always something to consider, but I'll say I've lost enough lumber (money$$) to PPB's and their kind that the money I spend on insecticide will always be considered a justifiable business expense. 
YH



YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

WDH

The 1 pound per gallon came from the Timbor label.  http://www.biconet.com/crawlers/infosheets/TimborLabel.pdf

Glenn,

It is best to spray while the wood is green as that helps absorption of the chemical as it is water soluble. 

I place the green boards in a tall, one board stack, one on top of the other on top of the other, etc. on a long table at the end of the sawmill.  This way, it is easy to spray all the edges at once (yes, the edges need spraying too), then lay them out across the table, spray one side, flip, spray the opposite, then sticker.   

Aggravating, for sure.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Solomon

Time and Money,  If you have the one, you rarely have the other.

The Path to Salvation is narrow, and the path to damnnation is wide.

WDH

Way too toxic for wood.  Why would you use that?
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

caveman

Thank you Yellow Hammer and WDH for your suggestions and knowledge on dealing with PPB's.  I forgot about this post and stumbled across it tonight.  The more I learn, the more I realize that I do not know about things.
Caveman
Caveman

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