Lead

[Nsmiller]

Hey everybody,, I got trouble still. It's my lead I'm certain. When I start a cut blade is straight but after about a foot it leans over hard against guide on lumber side. Do I have too much lead or not enough? To me it seems like too much but I really don't know and I don't want to mess up another blade. It seems like the log pushes over on the blade after 6-12"s and rubs guide hard. Also I notice it makes the cant face stringy.

[Jeff]

If this starts as soon as you start the cut, and the very first cut, I highly doubt that is is your lead only a foot into the cut, unless your lead is extreme. Sounds more to me like the log is pushing the blade due to a carriage tracking problem.

[Nsmiller]

Ohh so the guide track seems strait. So perhaps the carriage needs adjusted back some?

[Ron Wenrich]

Too much lead would be cutting in, not enough cutting out.  But, you could have a problem that isn't in the track.  Even if the guide track is straight, you could have a condition where one side of the track is higher then the other side.  That will cause your carriage to shift.  Put a level on your carriage and push it along your track.  See if the bubble is moving.

Another area could be in your trucks.  If the bearings are shot, you could be getting movement in your carriage as it is moving. 

Do you have new teeth in, or have they been sharpened several times?  Sometimes saw maintenance is a problem.

[Nsmiller]

Everything appears to be level. Entire mill is all one piece and metal. Trucks seem fine , carriage runs smooth. Blades are ok. I have spent hundreds at the saw doc all the time! I'm convinced it's an alignment problem because the mill was fine until I had shaft out and installed new bearings. I'm not good with lead lol I know the blade gets pushed over and the back of the blade rubs the cant. But I have lots of clearance on the tail end of blade to cant. That's what's funny. It seems like too much lead. Also that stringy wood isn't proper , mill cut smooth before.

[Jeff]

Have you actually measured the lead? Lead is a critical measurement. You should know exactly what it is so you can make known adjustments to it if it is off. 

[Ron Wenrich]

Seems like your problems started when you changed your bearings.   Did you check your lead after that?  Is your shaft level?  How many bearings?  Something has changed, if it cut smooth before.

[dgdrls]

Have you measured the alignment of the carriage relative to the saw?

Seems like more than a lead issue.

DGDrls

[Nsmiller]

I planned a board and put it on carriage pulled it up to blade and it is about 1/16" gap at back of blade but I don't know what it was before. On the return the teeth are hitting worse than I previously Thot as well. That stingy wood is stuck to the sides of them some and it's leaving more marks than before. I have another freshly hammered and sharpened but I'm scared to ruin it. I don't know what way I need to adjust the lead it seems like not enough but it also seems like too much. Could too much lead make the log push over on the blade? When I look at the shaft it looks really not straight! I'm almost hard ahead on the adjustment.

[Little Jim]

NsMiller: When I have problems I kind of start from scratch and will usually find it. In fact, from time to time I take 30-45 minutes and run through the below adjustments and make sure nothing has changed.  It helps me avoid many problems. Also, lube and check everything each time before you start sawing. I am not trying to talk to you like you just started sawing. I just know most of the time when I have issues with my little mill it is something I missed and not the mills fault. I hope this helps. I learned all the below things the hard way usually in the hot summer time with sweat and sawdust down my neck. I learned many of these very things from other forum members. All are simply basic things.

1) Is the guide track good and straight? (Have your pulled you a little wire along side it and checked with a rule)
2) Is the carriage side of the saw blade square with the carriage? (Have you checked with a framing square)
3) Are the knees square with the carriage? (Again a framing square will tell you)
4) When you pull the set works forward and stop, is the front knee the same distance from the tooth next the carriage as the last knee? (Check w/out cant on carriage with a rule. Run the carriage back and forth and check front & last knee distance from first tooth)
5) Is the splitter flush with the back of the saw blade (Have you checked with a 4' straight edge. It needs to keep the back of the blade from sawing the slab!)
6) I give my saw a 1/32nd to 1/16th of inch lead and forget it. (Once set, make sure things are tightened down good. The blade should just tick the cant on gig-back)
7) With the saw running up to speed does it stand up true or does it flutter at the top or run back and forth in the guides? ( Have you checked the collars. Should just see a little daylight on each side of saw between the guides)
8) Are all the shanks & teeth seated properly? (Look and feel of each one of them it will usually stand right out if something is not right)
9) Very Important! Are all the teeth good and sharp filed straight across? (Look at the bottom of each tooth then look at the front edge of the toot. Any problems will stand right out. The secret is filing square)
10) Lastly is your saw running up to hammered speed when you enter the log? (Have you figured the pulley formulas or checked PTO speed)
Good luck. Various stages of the above usually will get me back on track and sawing true. I hope this helps.  Little Jim

[Ron Wenrich]

I'm not understanding the stringy part of things.  It almost sounds like your teeth are aligned right.  If you have a tooth that sticks out too far, it will cause some heavy marks on your lumber.  Sometimes you'll get teeth that don't match too well, straight out of the box.

If you have 3 bearings, the center bearing has to be set after the front and rear have been adjusted and tightened.  Otherwise you can put a spring into your saw shaft.

To measure lead, you take your guides and loosen so they don't touch the saw.  Mark a tooth.  A lumber crayon works well.  Measure from tooth to a headblock.  Then, take your saw and rotate to the back of the husk.  Measure from the same marked tooth to the same headblock.  That gives you lead.

I know you backed your speed down.  Are you sure you're not putting on a saw hammered for the old speed?

[bandmiller2]

NS, you said you have a Belsaw, sounds like you may have side play in your carriage wheels. That would let the carriage tend to shift when theirs a log and a load on it feeding into the saw. Empty carriage try to push it in and out on the track near the saw, any side movement is bad. Shim washers will help if you have play. Frank C.

[Nsmiller]

Well after some thinking and working I did a lot of checking but it seems mainly my blade. My other blade runs much better. It still runs out 1/8" in ten feet. I did adjust the rear of carriage to fine tune it was off alittle. I'm gonna saw about 20 logs tomor an see if it holds up.

[Nsmiller]

So I sawed about 40 logs Ok then the same thing started happening again. But I did some dry juniper logs and I decided to file the teeth some. Then moves guides alittle closer and it saws ok again. So I'm tired out and I'm going to mill logs again tomorrow.

[bandmiller2]

NS, are you saying you milled 40 logs then sharpened your bits.?? If so perhaps dull bits are causing your problem. I cut nowhere near that many before I touch up my bits. Frank C.

[Nsmiller]

Yes I've only been milling for 5 years and only this last year have I really done more. It's all I do now. I only know what I've learned and been told. Nobody around me with any knowledge to tell me right from wrong. I had been taking blades to saw doc and he uses grinder. I just used a large flat file today. It seemed to work.

[Ron Wenrich]

I flat filed for a long time.  Still do when the occasion arises.  But, you have to watch that you keep the angle on your tooth right.  It should be around 32°, I think.  Its in the circle mill handbook.  It's real easy to get that angle off when you hand file.  If the angle gets too fat, it won't cut right.  You have to start your filing on the lower part of the flat, and work you way up.  That's the only way I was able to maintain that angle to an acceptable degree.  You also have to be straight across, or your saw will lead to the long side of the tooth.  Even a few teeth that aren't straight across can cause you problems.

A grinder will maintain the angle.  I usually use a grinder about once a day.  The rest of the day I use a flat file. 

If your guides are off, you will have some problems.  If you are sawing knotty wood, your saw will start to wear those guides.  What sort of material are you using for guide pins?  Guide pins should be set to have a little light on each side while the saw is running. 

[Nsmiller]

My mill only has wooden guide pins. The apparatus for my guides is homemade. Also not so good. I can only work with what I got rt now.

[bandmiller2]

All is for not if a circular mill's bits are not sharp with good corners and proper angle. Its so easy, as Ron said, to file the teeth blunt. They make a little gauge plate to put over the bit to check the angle. Next best thing is hold up a new bit beside it. For many years I free hand filed with good results then I bought a Dexter file guide with a diamond grit file that tool holds the angles and pretty much insures proper angle. Dull bits are always the first suspect when theirs a problem. Frank C.

[Jeff]

Dull bits are always the first suspect when theirs a problem. Frank C.

Absolutely!

[NMFP]

Not to hijack a thread but I have always thought about why we have steel bits that are tapered back to the back of the tooth?  If we can run carbide bits  that are the same thickness and never need or could be swaged, why do we taper the backs of the teeth we use today and need to swage to maintain the correct width? 

Why not make the teeth the same width from the back to the face of the tooth and just file it, thus eliminating the need to swage?

Just something I have thought of over the years.

[Jeff]

The same reason you have lead in the saw. Friction. Friction creates heat, heat creates a wanky circular saw. A bit cuts and clears the way for the bit behind it to do the same thing. It would not make sense for it not to clear a path for itself at the same time.

[whitepine2]

All is for not if a circular mill's bits are not sharp with good corners and proper angle. Its so easy, as Ron said, to file the teeth blunt. They make a little gauge plate to put over the bit to check the angle. Next best thing is hold up a new bit beside it. For many years I free hand filed with good results then I bought a Dexter file guide with a diamond grit file that tool holds the angles and pretty much insures proper angle. Dull bits are always the first suspect when theirs a problem. Frank C.

Deter saw guide best thing to have if you own a circle saw
all angles 100% correct like a filer for dummy's would not be without one ever.

[NMFP]

Jeff:

That's what I was thinking but I started to wonder as carbide is the same thickness the entire way back the carbide.

Wasn't quite sure and wondered if that really was the reason.

Thanks!

[Ron Wenrich]

The newer bits don't have as sharp of an angle as the older ones.  Most guys don't even swage the newer bits.  They started to use chrome, and they can't be swaged.

I'm not sure there's a whole lot of innovation in the bit business.  There is no competition, as Simonds has cornered the market and bought everyone out.  What is their incentive to make a better bit?  They're using the same technology that they have had for the past 50 years.