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skidder hydraulics overheating

Started by barniescamp, September 18, 2014, 10:08:21 AM

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barniescamp

Hi
I have a 95 John Deere 648e grapple skidder and I am starting to have an issue with the hydraulics system overheating. I changed the hydraulic oil and filter along with a new breather for the tank. all attachments work fine, no loss of hydraulic power, recently had a hose break and it drained the system. can it be an air lock somewhere in the system like the oil cooler ?? the lines running to and from the oil cooler are hot as well.
have any of you had a problem like or similar to this on your skidder ???
any idea's ???

nhlogga

Is the cooler plugged? What kind of hydraulic oil did you put in? Deere Hygard or its equivilant is what is supposed to be used. Did the hydraulics start overheating after you blew the hose or was it a problem before?
Jonsered 2260
Husky 562xp

snowstorm

get a temp gun and see what the oil temp is. the hot days mine was 180 that i think is to warn. with the air temp in the 70's its down to 140 thats fine

barniescamp

Quote from: nhlogga on September 18, 2014, 01:43:17 PM
Is the cooler plugged? What kind of hydraulic oil did you put in? Deere Hygard or its equivilant is what is supposed to be used. Did the hydraulics start overheating after you blew the hose or was it a problem before?
just started to over heat one day. the light flashed once one day and now it comes on and stays on. after talking to the local john deere dealers mechanics while at the skidder we narrowed it down to the steering priority valve as it gets really hot really fast, no other hoses or valves get hot at all. I flushed the cooler and theres a lot of flow and pressure.
So guess what I'm doing tomorrow..
Doesn't look to be that big of a job, maybe a little messy is all.

barniescamp

Quote from: snowstorm on September 18, 2014, 05:39:36 PM
get a temp gun and see what the oil temp is. the hot days mine was 180 that i think is to warn. with the air temp in the 70's its down to 140 thats fine
Ill have to borrow mine back off of my brother !!!

nhlogga

Quote from: barniescamp on September 18, 2014, 11:43:50 PM
Quote from: nhlogga on September 18, 2014, 01:43:17 PM
Is the cooler plugged? What kind of hydraulic oil did you put in? Deere Hygard or its equivilant is what is supposed to be used. Did the hydraulics start overheating after you blew the hose or was it a problem before?
just started to over heat one day. the light flashed once one day and now it comes on and stays on. after talking to the local john deere dealers mechanics while at the skidder we narrowed it down to the steering priority valve as it gets really hot really fast, no other hoses or valves get hot at all. I flushed the cooler and theres a lot of flow and pressure.
So guess what I'm doing tomorrow..
Doesn't look to be that big of a job, maybe a little messy is all.

On the 648g I ran, every part of the hydraulic system over heated. Ended up baking the packings out of the grapple boom cylinders, the cylinders on the grapple, and most of the o rings in the hydraulic fittings. Ran it waaayyyy too long as in a year and a half that way. Glad it wasn't my machine. Bossman knew it was messed up. Couldn't put your hand on any cylinder without getting burned. New hydraulic pump fixed it.
Jonsered 2260
Husky 562xp

barniescamp

Quote from: nhlogga on September 19, 2014, 02:50:04 AM
Quote from: barniescamp on September 18, 2014, 11:43:50 PM
Quote from: nhlogga on September 18, 2014, 01:43:17 PM
Is the cooler plugged? What kind of hydraulic oil did you put in? Deere Hygard or its equivilant is what is supposed to be used. Did the hydraulics start overheating after you blew the hose or was it a problem before?
just started to over heat one day. the light flashed once one day and now it comes on and stays on. after talking to the local john deere dealers mechanics while at the skidder we narrowed it down to the steering priority valve as it gets really hot really fast, no other hoses or valves get hot at all. I flushed the cooler and theres a lot of flow and pressure.
So guess what I'm doing tomorrow..
Doesn't look to be that big of a job, maybe a little messy is all.

On the 648g I ran, every part of the hydraulic system over heated. Ended up baking the packings out of the grapple boom cylinders, the cylinders on the grapple, and most of the o rings in the hydraulic fittings. Ran it waaayyyy too long as in a year and a half that way. Glad it wasn't my machine. Bossman knew it was messed up. Couldn't put your hand on any cylinder without getting burned. New hydraulic pump fixed it.

this is what I'm hopping to avoid. I'm going to get the sterering priority valve rebuilt as this seems to be the problem as it gets really hot only after a few minutes of operation and no other valve or hoses get hot,
the hydraulic pump gets hot also but its from the priority valve cause the fluid circulates in this valve first. the pump was cleaned up last week at the local john deere dealer and they said the pump was fine.

bushmechanic

 Hey barniescamp I had the same problem with a 644 Deere loader. It was a piece of rubber stuck in an orfice of the steering valve, removed the rubber and was perfect. Maybe you have a piece from your blown hose? I didn't know it was causing trouble but when I got the loader started it was making a wicked hissing noise and you couldn't bear your hand on the hoses and that's what I found.   

barniescamp

Quote from: bushmechanic on September 20, 2014, 05:34:40 AM
Hey barniescamp I had the same problem with a 644 Deere loader. It was a piece of rubber stuck in an orfice of the steering valve, removed the rubber and was perfect. Maybe you have a piece from your blown hose? I didn't know it was causing trouble but when I got the loader started it was making a wicked hissing noise and you couldn't bear your hand on the hoses and that's what I found.
I got the valve off and its going to be redone tomorrow with new o rings, i hope this fixes it. Ill post an update once I get it back together. I didn't hear no hissing noise or anything but it did get really hot in a short amount of time.


barniescamp

Well I put a new pressure relief valve in the steering priority valve and its still overheats, its looking to me that I may have a worn hydraulic pump which will be around 5-$6000 for a new one. We checked everything and cleaned the priority valve. Im hoping it may be something as simple as a backing spring on the swash plate in the pump itself not up to par. innards of the pump may be dirty also and the swash plate won't close fully. in other words somethings making my pump stay on. when i move an attachment the engine idles nice but when i stop moving that same attachment the engine idles right down. i got full hydraulic power all round, just the pump, steering priority valve and hydraulic tank get really hot after 5 minutes of idling without moving the blade or grapple... 

BargeMonkey

 I would do some serious calling around before I handed Deere & Co. 5-6k for a pump. A new pump for my 450C is 2200. Ive seen new Kawasaki pumps for Ft-133-153 for 3200. Have you thought about going the boneyard route ? Delk, heart of dixie and a few other places may have a low hour pump, and a used valve section for dirt cheap money, and they may stand behind it, or if it doesnt work send you another one.

snowstorm

Quote from: barniescamp on October 02, 2014, 12:27:23 AM
Well I put a new pressure relief valve in the steering priority valve and its still overheats, its looking to me that I may have a worn hydraulic pump which will be around 5-$6000 for a new one. We checked everything and cleaned the priority valve. Im hoping it may be something as simple as a backing spring on the swash plate in the pump itself not up to par. innards of the pump may be dirty also and the swash plate won't close fully. in other words somethings making my pump stay on. when i move an attachment the engine idles nice but when i stop moving that same attachment the engine idles right down. i got full hydraulic power all round, just the pump, steering priority valve and hydraulic tank get really hot after 5 minutes of idling without moving the blade or grapple...
dose it have a signal line? small hose running from pump to valves. smashed broke??    guessing and swapping parts gets real expensive fast. find someone with the test gear needed to look into it

OntarioAl

barniescamp
When you first posted you stated that a broken hose drained the system.
Did your pump run dry and if so how long?
Do you have a cold start relief system on your machine (possible pressure leak)?
Was the priority valve body pressure tested it may have an internal bypass (cracked)?
John Deere parts http://jdpc.deere.com/jdpc/servlet/com.deere.u90490.partscatalog.view.servlets.HomePageServlet_Alt
As snowstorm says find someone with the test equipment before you start replacing the parts.
Al

Al Raman

barniescamp

Quote from: OntarioAl on October 02, 2014, 09:12:39 AM
barniescamp
When you first posted you stated that a broken hose drained the system.
Did your pump run dry and if so how long?
Do you have a cold start relief system on your machine (possible pressure leak)?
Was the priority valve body pressure tested it may have an internal bypass (cracked)?
John Deere parts http://jdpc.deere.com/jdpc/servlet/com.deere.u90490.partscatalog.view.servlets.HomePageServlet_Alt
As snowstorm says find someone with the test equipment before you start replacing the parts.
Al
I got a mech coming in on saturday to look it, he's going to look at the pressures and also bringing his flowmeter. I got a couple of used heavy equipment parts dealers looking for a pump for me also in case this ones done. I myself think its the pump it heats up so fast. but so does the priority valve.

kiko

Here is how I would deal this situation , pull the pump you will done with that before you could get get the flow meter set.  The problem is most likely the pump and it is easily disassembled and inspected.  If the pump has not flown apart yet it could at any time now and if that happens 5k might not touch the cost of the repair. Put the pump in a vise shaft down remove the six bolts that hold the rectangle plate where adjustment screw is , remove large spring,  careful with spacer in other hole to remove . The smaller piece in the middle is removable and has small shims under it. Now remove compensator block four bolts as removed slowly pay attention to direction of key that connects sway plate to servo piston(under big spring).  There is a gasket and an o-ring between compensator and pump body. Now remove the four bolts that hold the head on and remove it. You can now see the barrel assembly and where it mates to the head check both pieces for wear or grooves both these surface must be flat. Looking further down you can see if the piston shoes are still in tacked without further assembly. If any gaskets tear they can be fabricated with gasket paper.  Also there is a valve in the head of the pump called a velocity fuse, it is a self contained valve and with cause a heat issue.  The velocity fuse looks like a relief valve.  A used pump is going to be hard to find. 

barniescamp

Quote from: kiko on October 02, 2014, 07:57:46 PM
Here is how I would deal this situation , pull the pump you will done with that before you could get get the flow meter set.  The problem is most likely the pump and it is easily disassembled and inspected.  If the pump has not flown apart yet it could at any time now and if that happens 5k might not touch the cost of the repair. Put the pump in a vise shaft down remove the six bolts that hold the rectangle plate where adjustment screw is , remove large spring,  careful with spacer in other hole to remove . The smaller piece in the middle is removable and has small shims under it. Now remove compensator block four bolts as removed slowly pay attention to direction of key that connects sway plate to servo piston(under big spring).  There is a gasket and an o-ring between compensator and pump body. Now remove the four bolts that hold the head on and remove it. You can now see the barrel assembly and where it mates to the head check both pieces for wear or grooves both these surface must be flat. Looking further down you can see if the piston shoes are still in tacked without further assembly. If any gaskets tear they can be fabricated with gasket paper.  Also there is a valve in the head of the pump called a velocity fuse, it is a self contained valve and with cause a heat issue.  The velocity fuse looks like a relief valve.  A used pump is going to be hard to find.
More than likely we'll be removing the pump tomorrow and the mech will go through it and let me know what to do, I did get a response from a used parts dealer and he says he has one but buying used kinda scares me cause its used, but a new one well thats another story, Ill ask if theres a warranty of some sort their only asking $1,500 for it. so buy the used one rebuild the original. I do all of my own mechanics but hydraulic components is where I do not venture if fear of making it worse.some I will do but the pump is a little over my head, it could be easy but who knows i never touched one before.

Gary_C

Did you blow out the fins on the oil cooler and make sure the cooler is getting good air flow?

If that is not the problem, take the pump to a good hydraulic repair shop and have it checked and/or rebuilt. That is normally a $2000+ repair bill, not $5-6000.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

barniescamp

Quote from: Gary_C on October 03, 2014, 01:31:06 PM
Did you blow out the fins on the oil cooler and make sure the cooler is getting good air flow?

If that is not the problem, take the pump to a good hydraulic repair shop and have it checked and/or rebuilt. That is normally a $2000+ repair bill, not $5-6000.
Fins have been cleaned and straitened, Im going to get the pump looked at by a hydraulic tech heavy equipment mechanic. I found another pump for $1,500 used. not sure to rebuild or buy the used. might buy the used and get the other rebuilt as a spare.

barniescamp

Quote from: barniescamp on October 03, 2014, 11:22:16 AM
Quote from: kiko on October 02, 2014, 07:57:46 PM
Here is how I would deal this situation , pull the pump you will done with that before you could get get the flow meter set.  The problem is most likely the pump and it is easily disassembled and inspected.  If the pump has not flown apart yet it could at any time now and if that happens 5k might not touch the cost of the repair. Put the pump in a vise shaft down remove the six bolts that hold the rectangle plate where adjustment screw is , remove large spring,  careful with spacer in other hole to remove . The smaller piece in the middle is removable and has small shims under it. Now remove compensator block four bolts as removed slowly pay attention to direction of key that connects sway plate to servo piston(under big spring).  There is a gasket and an o-ring between compensator and pump body. Now remove the four bolts that hold the head on and remove it. You can now see the barrel assembly and where it mates to the head check both pieces for wear or grooves both these surface must be flat. Looking further down you can see if the piston shoes are still in tacked without further assembly. If any gaskets tear they can be fabricated with gasket paper.  Also there is a valve in the head of the pump called a velocity fuse, it is a self contained valve and with cause a heat issue.  The velocity fuse looks like a relief valve.  A used pump is going to be hard to find.
Well I tackled the pump tonight, I took the cover off the top as it sat in a vice shaft down and i found an o ring and the gasket broken for a small hole on the very top of the base, the o ring was partially there and the gasket was missing in that same place. so i made a new gasket and put in a new oring and will reinstall it in the morning and test it out. I positive this is what was causing the problem. Im hoping so anyway

barniescamp

Well !!!!
the o ring thing didn't help any, it ran good for about a half hour then back to the same thing(hydraulics overheating) . but now another problem has risen !! it will not shift out of park to either reverse or forward !!! it sat for two weeks and i drove it to where its parked and now nothing !! I bled the system to no avail. again !! any ideas

nhlogga

Quote from: barniescamp on October 07, 2014, 11:32:39 PM
Well !!!!
the o ring thing didn't help any, it ran good for about a half hour then back to the same thing(hydraulics overheating) . but now another problem has risen !! it will not shift out of park to either reverse or forward !!! it sat for two weeks and i drove it to where its parked and now nothing !! I bled the system to no avail. again !! any ideas

When you put the skidder in park, the shift lever pushes on a button. You can see this button if you take the cover under the shifter knob off.  There are 2 wires that run from that button down to the tranny. If you take the panel that covers the blade/grapple valve body, you will see the wires. They will chafe at the bottom of the cab. This may not be your problem, but I had this problem before. The button may be the culprit also.
Jonsered 2260
Husky 562xp

barniescamp

Quote from: nhlogga on October 08, 2014, 12:57:26 PM
Quote from: barniescamp on October 07, 2014, 11:32:39 PM
Well !!!!
the o ring thing didn't help any, it ran good for about a half hour then back to the same thing(hydraulics overheating) . but now another problem has risen !! it will not shift out of park to either reverse or forward !!! it sat for two weeks and i drove it to where its parked and now nothing !! I bled the system to no avail. again !! any ideas

When you put the skidder in park, the shift lever pushes on a button. You can see this button if you take the cover under the shifter knob off.  There are 2 wires that run from that button down to the tranny. If you take the panel that covers the blade/grapple valve body, you will see the wires. They will chafe at the bottom of the cab. This may not be your problem, but I had this problem before. The button may be the culprit also.

I know which button your talking about, Ill check that out tomorrow and also the chaffed wires. Ill buy a couple of new relays and try that also.
Thanks for the reply

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