iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Clean Blades Stay Sharper, maintain set, and Cut Flatter Lumber w/o soap

Started by prittgers, September 16, 2014, 01:00:40 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

prittgers

In another post a sawyer asked why cutting harder wood resulted in wavy lumber.  He mentioned that he was not using lube though the former mill owner mentioned a water tank and detergent.

A couple thoughts on how to analyze the causes of wavy lumber which can include the following:

1), water should be viewed as a 'coolant' which begs the question:  Why is the blade hot?.  The answer is always the demon Friction! Also related to dirty blades causing drag and bigger load on the whole drive train.
2), you probably have a loose drive belt which is exacerbating the problem.  Here's why; a loose drive belt allows the blade horizontal speed to drop when cutting becomes difficult.  The engine continues to power the drive train at a higher speed than is being transmitted to the blade teeth.

Whichever set of teeth has a better set or, perhaps is sharper has an advantage.  The result is that hated wavy cut.

Changing the blade sometimes reduces the problem temporarily.  But the cause is usually still there!

Use a soluble oil/silicone lube additive. The reason why is that is water with detergent doesn't remove pitch.  The silicone, however, bonds with the surface of the blade at the molecular level.  It makes the surface so slick that 99% of the sticky pitch that soaks up cutting horsepower cannot adhere to the blade.  Everything last longer.  Clean blades stay cooler.  Cool blades stay set longer and sharper. 

A drop every few seconds is all it takes.  Resist the temptation to deluge the blade!  Let me know what you think, ok?
Parker Rittgers
Professional Sawyer, Retired, well, not really !
WoodMizer Alaska | 907.360.2497 cell 336.5143 office BevelSider.com ? Everything BevelSider
907.336.5143
prittgers@aksamill.com

golddredger

Thanks for the info.
What water soluable oil/silicone brand or type do you use?

If I go to the hardware and ask for it they will look at me like I am crazy and ask what it is used for then tell me the chainsaw shop is up the road as normal. Went to buy bolts yes regular old grade 5 bolts from the Ace hardware and he tells me they do not have bolts for sawmills I need to go to the chainsaw shop up the road.  ??? :o
Home built bandsaw mill and trailer for a mini logging operation. Lots of chainsaws and love the woods.

Tom L

I use a water soluble ,synthetic cutting oil here at the shop on my bandsaws for cutting metal

10% mix with water usually does the trick.

it is non staining ,

never thought of using a little in my water system on the woodmizer

may have to give it a try, thanks for the info

ely

I wonder what the silicone is going to do to the lumber, as in will it effect the finish that you try and use later, or will even enough of it get on the lumber to matter.

redprospector

Quote from: ely on September 16, 2014, 05:32:49 PM
I wonder what the silicone is going to do to the lumber, as in will it effect the finish that you try and use later, or will even enough of it get on the lumber to matter.
Very good question!
It takes very little silicone residue to cause fish eyes in a lacquer finish. I know that when I had my wood shop going, I sure cussed myself a time or two for using spray silicone on my table saw top, or planer bed.
There is a trade off for anything you do. A person just has to weigh out the pro's, and con's, and then make an educated choice.
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

POSTON WIDEHEAD

I lube with water and 3 shots of Cascade in my tank.
My "not secret" is I keep a spray bottle of Diesel on hand. When pitch builds up, 2 sprays of Diesel cleans the blade like a new penny. The Diesel spray does not stain or make the lumber smell......in fact it is washed off when the lube is turned back on.
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

redprospector

Quote from: prittgers on September 16, 2014, 01:00:40 PM
In another post a sawyer asked why cutting harder wood resulted in wavy lumber.  He mentioned that he was not using lube though the former mill owner mentioned a water tank and detergent.

A couple thoughts on how to analyze the causes of wavy lumber which can include the following:

1), water should be viewed as a 'coolant' which begs the question:  Why is the blade hot?.  The answer is always the demon Friction! Also related to dirty blades causing drag and bigger load on the whole drive train.
2), you probably have a loose drive belt which is exacerbating the problem.  Here's why; a loose drive belt allows the blade horizontal speed to drop when cutting becomes difficult.  The engine continues to power the drive train at a higher speed than is being transmitted to the blade teeth.

Whichever set of teeth has a better set or, perhaps is sharper has an advantage.  The result is that hated wavy cut.

Changing the blade sometimes reduces the problem temporarily.  But the cause is usually still there!

Use a soluble oil/silicone lube additive. The reason why is that is water with detergent doesn't remove pitch.  The silicone, however, bonds with the surface of the blade at the molecular level.  It makes the surface so slick that 99% of the sticky pitch that soaks up cutting horsepower cannot adhere to the blade.  Everything last longer.  Clean blades stay cooler.  Cool blades stay set longer and sharper. 

A drop every few seconds is all it takes.  Resist the temptation to deluge the blade!  Let me know what you think, ok?

Hmm. Ok, this is my opinion. It, and a couple of bucks might get you a cup of coffee in some places.

I agree with the fact that a clean blade will cut better and longer.....but I don't think it's a good idea to use something like silicone on lumber that we have no idea what the final use will be. In some uses it would make little if any difference. But in some uses a surprise of silicone residue could be devastating.

1. Water is generally a very poor lubricant, and will cause blades to rust.
2. Water with soap in it isn't much better, and the rust is still there.
3. Friction is a given. Anytime 2 materials pass by each other at a close distance, and
    a high rate of speed...there will be friction.

In most cases where friction is a problem the set needs to be increased. Probably not by leaps and bounds, but a couple of thousandths can make a world of difference in the quality of lumber produced. Two materials passing by each other at not quite as close a distance = less friction.

In cases where there is a pitch build up I use something (not explosive) that will cut pitch, usually diesel. I use a windshield washer pump and a small tank, I only give the blade a squirt when there is pitch starting to adhere to it.
I cut almost exclusively Ponderosa Pine, White Fir, and Douglas Fir. I usually use less than a gallon of diesel in a days cutting.

I do agree with you on loose drive belts. They can make a saw do some strange things. You can add bad bearings to that list too.

Any chemical (diesel, silicone, oil, etc. etc. etc.) can have an adverse effect on finishing the lumber that you are producing. That's why I think it's a good idea to set your blades for the logs that you'll be cutting, and use no more of anything than absolutely necessary to keep the blade clean.
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

kelLOGg

Quote from: prittgers on September 16, 2014, 01:00:40 PM
1), water should be viewed as a 'coolant' which begs the question:  Why is the blade hot?.  The answer is always the demon Friction!

My blade is NEVER hot, not even warm. Even in 24" cuts in 12+ feet of oak it is not warm. I have always assumed that with 16HP I can't cut fast as the fast mills so my blade doesn't heat up but on the other hand the blade spends a lot of time in the cut which should create more friction. I lube with diesel wipe and set to 0.025" for oak had have been using Simonds blades.
Cook's MP-32, 20HP, 20' (modified w/ power feed, up/down, loader/turner)
DH kiln, CatClaw setter and sharpener, tandem trailer, log arch, tractor, thumb tacks

36 coupe

Go into a body shop with a can of silicone as see what happens.Silicone is poison to paint finishes. 

Dave Shepard

36 coupe, not on a bet. :D I have had great luck using a pint of veggie oil and a splash of Dawn in five gallons of water.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

prittgers

You are a great bunch of sawmillers!  Good feedback from everyone.  Would you allow me to ask a couple questions?

1), having boards with diesel residue probably isn't the best presentation material for a customer.  And diesel works great - but it always made me nervous about the smell AND the fire hazard.  How about you?

2),  when was the last time any of us said, "Boy! That soap and water really removes the pitch on my hands!" 

3), points about finishing with silicone-contaminated are well taken.  I have rebuilt and refinished a couple hundred pianos in my earlier life.  Fisheyes are horrible to get rid of.  I'm not sure with a drop of highly diluted mineral oil with a bit of silicone in it would be a problem with rough sawn boards.  Before you make a bookcase or piano, you're likely to plane them. 

What do you think, eh?

Your friend in Alaska - Parker

Parker Rittgers
Professional Sawyer, Retired, well, not really !
WoodMizer Alaska | 907.360.2497 cell 336.5143 office BevelSider.com ? Everything BevelSider
907.336.5143
prittgers@aksamill.com

Dave Shepard

The bond between pitch and metal versus pitch and skin I'm sure is different. If I have a band that is seriously gunked up, I turn the LubeMizer on continuous and blast if for five seconds. Pitch is gone. I always pretreat a fresh band with soapy water and that really seems to stop the buildup. The worst condition I've found is resawing older pine timbers, but they are manageable.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

POSTON WIDEHEAD

Quote from: prittgers on September 16, 2014, 08:22:25 PM


1), having boards with diesel residue probably isn't the best presentation material for a customer.  And diesel works great - but it always made me nervous about the smell AND the fire hazard. 

 


Y'all not reading the Old Goats reply right.  :D
I spray 2 sprays of Diesel to clean the pitch off my blade when needed.
There has NEVER been residue on ANY of my lumber.
Now listen to me..... :D Once you spray the blade with 2 SPRAYS......when you turn the lube back on, it washes the blade clean. Try it...try it....try it.....no residue or smell on the lumber.
I do don't recommend running pure Diesel from a lube tank.....it will smell up and stain your lumber,

Now on the Fire Hazard.......been a Fire Fighter for 28 years.......a Diesel mist from a spray....yep.....if it hits a flame, it will flare up. A spray on your blade.....nothing to worry about if your in a ventilated area like most of us are.....like outside.  ;D  Good thread Prittgers. smiley_thumbsup
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

kelLOGg

Quote from: prittgers on September 16, 2014, 08:22:25 PM
1), having boards with diesel residue probably isn't the best presentation material for a customer.  And diesel works great - but it always made me nervous about the smell AND the fire hazard.  How about you?

You must be thinking of using gallons of diesel a day like some use water. A gallon will probably last me 10,000 bdft. I have furniture and flooring in my house, furniture that I have made for other people, furniture in my church, many custom sawing jobs - all sawn with a diesel wipe and no one has complained of a diesel odor. If there is any residual diesel you would need a mass spectrometer (sorry, that's the retired chemist in me speaking) to confirm or negate detection of its components. Fire hazard? really? what about heart pine flooring? That is a far greater fire hazard than residual diesel in my lumber.
Cook's MP-32, 20HP, 20' (modified w/ power feed, up/down, loader/turner)
DH kiln, CatClaw setter and sharpener, tandem trailer, log arch, tractor, thumb tacks

Peter Drouin

If your blade is hot, it's dull. If you get waves, it's dull. If you have junk on the blade your cutting to slow. I cut dry and fast and have no worries. IF I do get something on it, I turn on the [just water] for ½ a cut then turn it off. Did that today with some W Oak.   :)
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

red

Honor the Fallen Thank the Living

backwoods sawyer

Kellogg you answer your own statement,
Diesel lube dose a better job of keeping friction down then water there by you are keeping you saw cool without the need for water.

From time to time I have issues with pitch build up while running straight water. To the point of needing a squirt or two of diesel per pass.
Just added a Cooks diesel wipe with I-V style drip system to the WM and having cleaner saws with less water.

Adding extra set when crap is building up on the band is not getting to the root of the problem which is "friction causing crap on the band" yes it is a work around, but the crap is still there!!! 

Keeping the crap (hope that is an OK word :P) off the saw is solving the root cause.

Also I have the early style guide without a chip deflector on the drive side. By adding the diesel wiper after the guide I have also added a chip deflector without the cost of the upgrade to the newer style guide mount. This also helps keep the saw clean by minimizing the amount of sawdust getting sandwiched between the drive wheel and the saw.

When running cedar thru a high speed sorter everything ran smoother when the chains were freshly oiled and not slapping as we were sorting 1x4 1x6 2x4 2x6 and 4x4 in three lengths 8', 9', 10' as the chains slapping againt the boards would bounce the 1x's out causing BIG crashes on the decline chain that ran from the third floor to the first. We kept an oil can filled with used motor oil at the sorter to oil as needed until the lumber yard in phoenix tracked down why the stain was not adhering evenly to the fencing and decking. After that when running cedar the sorter could not be oiled. Cedar was sold rough sawn.

Ok the fire hazard and smell with deisel is real...
When you have both I-V's turned up and forget to turn off the deisel drip and come back to the mill after the weekend to find the tank empty and saturated sawdust where it driped.
But then if you turn it off at the end of the day this is not an issue ;D
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

drobertson

Quote from: red on September 16, 2014, 09:01:17 PM
Run the blade with lube for 30 seconds after your cut
this is not a bad option.  A good  even dose of soap water has worked for me for years.  And I do at times run a flush at the end of the cut, not for 30 secs, but enough to clean for sure.   I've seen speed on band mills, and they have not given the quality that I require, but everyone has different tolerances for sure.
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

POSTON WIDEHEAD

And now that we have all this settled...lets go help Peter put his mill back together.  :D :D :D
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

kelLOGg

Quote from: backwoods sawyer on September 16, 2014, 09:07:53 PM
When you have both I-V's turned up and forget to turn off the deisel drip and come back to the mill after the weekend to find the tank empty and saturated sawdust where it driped.
But then if you turn it off at the end of the day this is not an issue ;D

That's the only time I get a diesel smell - on the ground when I forget to turn the drips off.
Bob
Cook's MP-32, 20HP, 20' (modified w/ power feed, up/down, loader/turner)
DH kiln, CatClaw setter and sharpener, tandem trailer, log arch, tractor, thumb tacks

thecfarm

diesel smell? I use half diesel and half bar and chain oil.I only saw for me and the wife. Built her a garden shed. Which got turned into a Women Cave. If there would of been a smell of diesel on the lumber,she would of smelled it.   ::) I am not saying to use what I use,but it makes the wife happy. That's all I care about.  ;D 
The Great Lube Debate has begun.
Better than the grit one,I suppose.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

WmFritz

Quote from: thecfarm on September 16, 2014, 09:32:04 PMI use half diesel and half bar oil


Better than the grit one,I suppose.

Ray, I'm bettin your blade lube tastes better!  ;D
~Bill

2012 Homebuilt Bandmill
1959 Detroit built Ferguson TO35

YellowHammer

 
My favorite is Cotton Picker Spindle Cleaner, and is the only thing I use now for blade lube and cleaner.  It is a water soluble oil and detergent, and is easily available down south this time of year.  Its specifically designed to clean plant stem residue and sap from the spindles and lubricate moving parts of very expensive cotton pickers and harvesting machines. It is available at any local farmers COOP. It was specifically designed for for this type of job on farm machinery so works equally well on bandsaw blades.  It is tank mixed with water, a few glugs per gallon, so 5 gallons of Spindle Kleen will last a long time. It's effective cleaning properties allows me to turn the blade lube flow rate to about half of what I need with conventional soap and water mixes.  Also, since I sharpen my own blades, even though the spindle cleaner is diluted with water, it will not cause the bands to rust, so means I can go straight from the mill to the sharpener without having to clean pitch or rust off the blade.
It has virtually no detectable odor to me, and will not stain or damage wood, or affect the final finishes.  I have never had a single customer complaint or comment about residue on the boards, and many of my customers are professional furniture makers.

I use either John Deere Spinde Cleaner Solvent, AN114022 or Spindle Kleen.  Pretty much all big farm machinery brands such as Case, Massey, etc that make cotton pickers have a similar water soluble oil/lubricant/cleaner and I assume they are equally effective, but I haven't tried them.
YH
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

redprospector

Quote from: backwoods sawyer on September 16, 2014, 09:07:53 PM
Adding extra set when crap is building up on the band is not getting to the root of the problem which is "friction causing crap on the band" yes it is a work around, but the crap is still there!!! 

Keeping the crap (hope that is an OK word :P) off the saw is solving the root cause.

Also I have the early style guide without a chip deflector on the drive side. By adding the diesel wiper after the guide I have also added a chip deflector without the cost of the upgrade to the newer style guide mount. This also helps keep the saw clean by minimizing the amount of sawdust getting sandwiched between the drive wheel and the saw.

When running cedar thru a high speed sorter everything ran smoother when the chains were freshly oiled and not slapping as we were sorting 1x4 1x6 2x4 2x6 and 4x4 in three lengths 8', 9', 10' as the chains slapping againt the boards would bounce the 1x's out causing BIG crashes on the decline chain that ran from the third floor to the first. We kept an oil can filled with used motor oil at the sorter to oil as needed until the lumber yard in phoenix tracked down why the stain was not adhering evenly to the fencing and decking. After that when running cedar the sorter could not be oiled. Cedar was sold rough sawn.

Ok the fire hazard and smell with deisel is real...
When you have both I-V's turned up and forget to turn off the deisel drip and come back to the mill after the weekend to find the tank empty and saturated sawdust where it driped.
But then if you turn it off at the end of the day this is not an issue ;D
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

redprospector

Hmm. Not sure what I did there.  :D
What I wanted to say is:
I wasn't saying that if your blade is dull to add set. Or to add enough set to get the sawdust around the "crap" that has built up. I was trying to say that if you're getting heat built up in your sharp blade that you more than likely don't have enough set to cut the material at hand.
I agree that keeping the "crap" off the saw is solving the root cause. But you may need to up-set your blade to do that.  ;)
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

Thank You Sponsors!