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- The small logger is facing extinction -

Started by BargeMonkey, September 14, 2014, 03:49:31 AM

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BargeMonkey

 Talked with a state forester the other day, and got comfirmation on the new policy with woodlots up our way on the state land. I bet there is 40,000 acres + - of state forest land by me within 20 mins drive either way of the house. They now are really only marking 150-200-250 acre sales, the small 20-30mbft and 100 cord sales are gone. The kicker in the whole deal is that alot of these sales are set up for "winter or frozen ground" with no weight restriction, other than that its 40k pounds max, which limits you even further on equipment selection. I see a few guys around cutting, but every year you see a few less, even the "con-artist" fly by night loggers are becoming less and less. I figured I would post this, I dont know how things are in other parts of the country but I see this as another way to get rid of the little guy, your forced to go big, CTL, or go home.
Met with the forester on the woodlot im working right now, actually seemed like a decent guy, unfortunately until you sit down face to face with someone you dont really knkw what your getting. He confirmed the same thing, he said he is seeing more guys say the hell with it, and the guys who do stay in it go 848 or in that size to stomp the wood out. He was leery with me having a Timbco on this job because hes had some issues with guys making a mess, you should see the nice 28"+ cherry and hard maple im cutting around, but he seemed very satisfied so I can breathe easy. $6000 penalty per mbft that gets cut, or damaged due to negligence, that eats any profit in about 2-3 trees.

timberlinetree

Seems to be the American way. Big box stores putting little guy out of biz. Many small dairy farms gobbled up by big factory farms. Not shure how long jd440,tj 200 series,tfc5 etc will be around but it's not forever. Seems like middle America is disappearing? It's either big or mirco. It will be tuff on the youth ( the ones that want to work) to own a small biz! Big biz had to start out small so they shouldn't be penalized for working hard to get to were they are. Maybe we need leadership that takes care of the people and not just big corporations. I'm not an economics guy and just my to cents but I don't like what I'm seeing out there.
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Ianab

The smaller operators do OK locally from the "farm forestry" guys. That's conventional livestock farmers that plant smaller plantations on marginal parts of their land, gullies, riverbanks and hillsides that aren't suitable for grazing. With a bit of simple management they can produce good pine logs in ~25 years,  that then needs harvesting. Maybe only 5 or 10 acres, or a couple of thousand trees. The big companies aren't interested, but it's a dozens of truckloads and well worth harvesting for a smaller crew with a skidder and usually an excavator or bulldozer.

It's about having the infrastructure that supports this. The land owners, the loggers, the truckers, the mills. Miss out any of those and it doesn't work.

The larger companies have the huge plantations, dedicated crews with mechanised harvesting. Kaingaroa forest alone is over 700,000 acres that's harvested and replanted every 25-30 years. No time for small operators there.

Smaller operators, smaller blocks of forests.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

HiTech

I agree with that BargeMonkey. I can remember when the State would sell you small firewood lots....25 cord. I think what happened is some Lawyers got involved and were afraid someone would sue the State if they got hurt cutting wood on State lands. They even set up a money grab...chainsaw school. I see where these big logging companies have been. Looks like an atom bomb went off. They have skid roads 40 plus feet wide. My skidder would turn circles on these roads and never touch the sides. lol I would love to be able to get the wood these big companies leave. I was at one sight this summer looking around...mostly for blackberries and just out of sight of the road I found about 9 thousand feet of logs or more just laying there. Looked like some sawlogs and would have made really good firewood. I have seen this a lot on these big jobs sights. They just leave hitches all over. One spot on state land they just clearcut about 25 acres and left it right there. Never hauled a single tree out. Yet they won't sell me firewood or let me clean these messes up. I am beginning to believe our whole state is corrupt in one way or another. It's all about who can grease whose pockets with the most grease. lol

jwilly3879

Look at the Adirondacks, a 6+ million acre "PARK", about 1/2 privately owned and the rest owned by the state with a large portion where the trees are protected by the constitution and will never be harvested or even see a motorized vehicle. The private land is under the protection of the Adirondack Park Agency which requires permits for any activity outside the Towns. It took me over 3 years to get a permit to subdivide  17 acre lot into two parcels and they dictate what can be cleared for the houses. I should have cut the timber before applying.

ga jones

There will always be small cut and skid operations in the appalatchen hard wood country.From southern ny to Kentucky.In my neck of the woods the the wood lots are getting smaller.As for the rest of the country I'm afraid your right.
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Texas Ranger

In Texas the small logger is killing  himself, a good small logger is getting harder to find.  There is no restriction on equipment, yet, but the mills control who you sell to with contract arrangements.  Small loggers that can affiliate with a larger logger can haul under their contract, at a reduce price for the timber.  A small logger with integrity still has a place with private owners, the majority in Texas, but they end up shooting themselves in the foot with non payment, poor work ethics, and a hurry up job that causes more damage than benefit. 

My small logger retired, one truck, or more depending, one loader, and light tractor/dozers.  Perfect for small land owner tracts, and he was making money. 

I don't have the answer, and neither does the industry, hard work is not what today's youth is looking for in a job.

The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

BargeMonkey

 I didnt mean to make it sound like its the end for everyone, but the guys in my area and north know exactly what im talking about. The private lots are there, ive got wood for 3yrs and havent even began to look, but I know some guys who dont know where the next check is coming from. I see the age gap when I go attend the "mandatory" yearly training, a few guys my age "30 + -" but most of the guys are 50-65 and they are at that point where they arent going to change, or throw down huge money for another 5-10yrs.
I walked a state lot the other day, which someone unfortunately lost half way thru do to some problems. Quite a few piles of processed hardwood, laying there to rot, I bet I saw 5-6 forwarder loads and I didnt walk the whole thing. The state now is requiring at least 1 man on the job to be TLC certified, so there is no getting out of it down here. But, I will say the 1 day a year, and few added benefits we see make up for it. Anyway I figured it was good conversation, gotta stir the pot every once in a while.

lopet

It's so sad, when you see all those little guys get pushed out of the way by the big outfits.  And when one of those big guys faces bankruptcy they get sucked up by a even bigger outfit.   I think , when all this s#$% hits the fan we might start all from scratch. And than cash might be trump.  I guess time will tell but I ve been wrong before. ;D 
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Woodboogah

I think about this often.  Down here, Southern NH, it is getting harder and harder to buy wood.  There are a few big outfits that buy lots for dirt cheap because they need to move wood.  I know from the business side of things moving wood means making money.  I see a lot of wood go through a chipper that could otherwise be sawlogs, yeah they may be on the smaller end but still that is money in the landowners pocket.  Production plays a big part, its easier and quicker to send a small sawlog through a chipper to meet a bio-mass quote then to cut it out.  They are very few young(er) guys in this area making a living in the woods.  I am getting by but by no means getting rich.  I came from the residential tree work side and would not go back.  The money was there along with more competition and headaches.  I have no intention on getting any bigger then me and a machine, it's simple, the overhead is low.  If the day comes when I cant fit into that market on lots where the big guys cant make a buck, then I am out and stick to losing money at farming, HA!  Good post Bargemonkey I look forward to hear what others have to say about their area
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thecfarm

There are some chainsaw-skidder guys around here. But I see more big guys than small guys. Just saw a bid in the paper,ctl and forwarder only.
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smwwoody

Not sure how this fits in here

I contract cut for one of the mills owned by one of the largest pallet manufactures in the world.  their forester is now starting to buy smaller and smaller timber sales.  the last 2 I cut for them were 10 acres.  this past week he just bought on that was 5.3 acres.  I told them my rate will have to go up to keep cutting these small tracts.  or they will have to come up with a flat rate to cover the moving cost.  these jobs have great timber on them but it costs too much to move all the time.
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Maine logger88

Around here (waldo county) there more small guys than big still but there's not very many guys in there 20,s and 30,s doing it anymore. I hope I can continue on for a good long time! I don't want to go fully mechanical because of the headaches that go along with it sometimes.  I wouldn't mind picking up a few more pieces as I can tho too make things go smoother but still be able to do it all myself provided I can't find any good help
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Woodboogah

Same here Mainelogger.  Help is plentiful, good help is another story!  I gave up looking it was costing me more money in time then what is was worth.  I know as I get older I am going to look for ways to keep my body in one piece.  Even now I try not to make to many moves that are unneeded.  I still learn something everyday, that is part of what I love about doing this. 
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Maine logger88

Yup I agree woodboogah, I have had some other real good help at times in the past but its hard to keep good guys cause I can't pay enough money its just not there. I have had a few bad ones too that make it harder than doing it myself. The kid that helps me now does a real good job but he's still in school so not full time. I also try too save as many steps as possible and keep getting a little better the more I do it. I wouldn't mind picking up a loader with a pull through and slasher eventually all in due time tho
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Peter Drouin

And the BIG guys don't sell logs to small mills like me.
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treeslayer2003

meh, i see the small outfit doing better here........i am any way. many of the big 50 load a week guys have gone under. seems like we are leaning more toward selections like we used to.....although i am on a clearcut at the moment.....the feller buncher crowd don't or can't deal with over size wood or selections.

that said, at 42 i am starting to slow down a little bit, and there is no young guys picking up a saw. what few would don't give a crap about whats left, only how much they can make today.

redprospector

Around here the Forest Service catered to the "big mill" for years. They tailored timber sales for them, and it was hard to get any timber from the National Forest if you were a small outfit.
The Forest Service, and the "big mill" put most of the smaller mills out of business eventually. Then one day the "big mill" who was owned by a "bigger mill" somewhere else decided that it just wasn't worth the effort to stay in business in a small forest in the middle of a desert area. They closed the doors and left, never to be a milling operation again. The two small mills that they couldn't put out of business finally closed down (the owners are now in their 80's, and finally retired). Now the only place to sell logs are to a pallet mill over 100 miles away, at a price less than we used to get locally. Or you can sell to the Mexicans for an even more reduced rate. They will prepare the logs for export, and if you haven't got your money before they're gone, you very well could be out of luck.
There are a few portable band saws around operating, but they are mostly owned by the "die hard" loggers who are left trying to hang on to their lifestyle, and the lives they have built over the last many years.
Considering all of this, the USFS is still putting out timber sales designed for a "large mill" and most of us just can't handle them. We could cut them, but then what do we do with the timber? So these sales become unprofitable for the USFS, and become fewer and farther between. As a result, in the Desert Southwest the forest fires become more and more catastrophic due to the lack of removing any fuel.
It just goes on, and on.
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nhlogga

Quote from: Woodboogah on September 14, 2014, 03:39:07 PM
I think about this often.  Down here, Southern NH, it is getting harder and harder to buy wood.  There are a few big outfits that buy lots for dirt cheap because they need to move wood.  I know from the business side of things moving wood means making money.  I see a lot of wood go through a chipper that could otherwise be sawlogs, yeah they may be on the smaller end but still that is money in the landowners pocket.  Production plays a big part, its easier and quicker to send a small sawlog through a chipper to meet a bio-mass quote then to cut it out.  They are very few young(er) guys in this area making a living in the woods.  I am getting by but by no means getting rich.  I came from the residential tree work side and would not go back.  The money was there along with more competition and headaches.  I have no intention on getting any bigger then me and a machine, it's simple, the overhead is low.  If the day comes when I cant fit into that market on lots where the big guys cant make a buck, then I am out and stick to losing money at farming, HA!  Good post Bargemonkey I look forward to hear what others have to say about their area

I see the same things you do. I got out. I subbed for other guys. Had enough. By the time ai took out my taxes I may as well work @ wal mart. I took a job at a ware house running a fork lift. It's less than 5mi from home. I clear more money than I ever did working in the woods for anybody.
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Firewoodjoe

I agree with everything said so far. But a lot of you saying "young guys" can't or won't do the work is not the problem here. Being a "young guy" that wants to log I see no problem getting equipment, the hard work I already do for the boss and  even getting wood is not so much of an issue. Paying for the wood is the issue. Not that stumpage is sky high wich it's growing but anymore if you don't have the cash to pay up front u don't get the job. It takes anywhere from $20-200,000 to buy a good job. On the other hand I see my boss buy $5-10,000 private wood lots for $3,000 because for one no one wants to cut them being so small and the fact the land owner will take a third less just to get cash in hand. You need years of cash built up or a line of credit to buy wood. And the banks don't like giving it out without something in return. We just moved to a state sale that has 8 units! Why! 7 acres a peice that's why! Really! Now something like that I could have possibly bought but it's regrowth aspen. Hard to make production with a skidder and chainsaw with three stick 12" dbh wood. It's frustrating to see opritunity but can't reach it. There will always be a need for the little guy just depends on how bad he wants it. Well time for me to head to the woods for the big guy. Oh and by the way that big guy has sons that want nothing to do with the business. Go figure. Now that really chaps my hind end

David-L

In my case I try to do a good job and work with the landowners on the small jobs the big guys don't want. Sometimes you get some good wood and sometimes you get small dia wood. Because it's  a small job with not alot of money usually I get them to pay the trucking if possible,be timely and keep them in the loop with all decisions about the process. Word of mouth usually takes over from there.
I have friends with whole tree chipping operations that are big, make lots of cash flow, make huge payments ,go through huge amounts of fuel and sometimes if the wood is right make money. All I can say when there equipment is down I see nothing but stress flowing out of them and don't see how that could be any fun.
I think for me there will always be an opportunity to cut some wood and if my machine is sitting waiting for the next job it's paid for and waiting for me.
My true belief is that nowadays so many people have the bigger is better syndrome, more,more. more money if I get bigger with more output. That is not my belief. diversification is the key to my little farming business. Not getting rich but paying the bills. 42 degrees this a.m., I am psyched!!!, no bugs.
In two days from now, tomorrow will be yesterday.

CCC4

In the last 20 years I have only seen one large operation blow through town and cut in my area. They cut 24 hour shifts and cut a slug of FS pine...other than that, our ground is too rough for most machine loggers. These hills will never see a forwarder..most people here don't even know they exist. About the most mechanized you will ever see in my area is Hydro Ax and Bell 3 wheelers and the knuckle boom "might" have a functioning de-limber. I like it this way...I have never looked for work in the last 20 years!

As far as no upcoming youngsters....yeh they don't really exist. In my sawmill career I saw a decline in help everyday...when I quit manual log turning and started sawing on a manual mill, there was no one that could or would turn logs worth a crap! We were forced to go full auto. The old ways are about to dry up, I was the last in my area to use Draft horses to skid. There are still maybe a few guys toting out cedar on their shoulders....but I was about the last to that here as well. Most of the youth are spun out on meth and would rather scrap metal for their dope than cut timber...I have no problem with this, tweekers don't need to be in the woods anyway.

One thing I do see in the future is a need for "yarding operations", so much untouched steep rough ground around here that one day that will be all we have to cut. I am certain I will still be cutting when the first yarder arrives on Arkansas soil.

Down South of me, mech crews are everywhere in the flat lands on plantation pine. If the bat thing happens...they big mech operations will go under big time! National Forest Service is right now thinking of only allowing timber to be cut from November to April due to bats...IDK, seems about the most stupid thing I have even heard! Even environmentalist tree hugger save the whales type people think the timber should be cut during warm months so the bats can re-locate before Winter. Oh well, most of the crap that most people are seeing doesn't affect me or my work as of yet so I am not going to ponder on it.

gologit

Our situation here is a little different.  One company owns 95% of the mills in this end of the state.  They also own almost two million acres of timber land in California alone. They do absolutely none of their own logging, it's all contracted.

See where this is going?  If you want to log, you pretty much have to log for them.  On their terms and at their prices.  If you have timber from your own land to sell they may or may not even buy it.  If they do buy it you can rest assured that they won't pay much.

If you're logging for them on a small sale, say five or ten million bf, and they decide they want a million bf a week into the mill you darn well better be able to do it.  If you can't do it they'll find somebody who can.  Or who thinks they can, anyway.

You can rant and rave all you want about it being a monopoly but that doesn't change anything.  It's the way it is. You can make a living logging for them if you're careful and skillful and lucky...but it won't ever be much more than just a living.  More like financing a lifestyle for you and your crew.

You guys that have a variety of landowners and mills to work for are lucky to have a choice.

Semi-retired...life is good.

ST Ranch

Bargemonkey - what is TLC  certified?

In our area the small logger is almost gone.  Big forest corporations have the support of the provincial [and federal] government and control the log market. Both levels of government have substantially reduced their staff and downloaded the admin costs to the operator [both big and small] so the economy of scale for little operators is also a big factor.

I have two mills to sell to and they basically have an agreed upon set price. This price basically covers the cost to log and truck the wood to the mill by a big operator [fully mechanized  - Feller-Buncher, grapple skid, processor for short log CTL and 50 ton "quad "trailer with 3 bunks].  If I go thru the admin hoops and apply to export the logs to the US [about doubles my trucking cost] and an extra handling cost for log scaling, sorting and storage, reload,  brokerage fees, etc, I still get 50% more [gross]for my logs in the US.  But this involves a log yard, scale site, loaders, and associated infrastructure, so AGAIN, you need a big operation to make pay.

For the small operator, we can not compete.  For example, a regular 40 ton excavator is to small to unload the big quad trailers, and 48 ft hay racks are scarse.  The mills do not buy the traditional long logs [33- 53 feet] and self loading long log trucks also hard to get. And on it goes.

Small salvage or public auction timber sales are also a thing of the past.  Used to be sales sold with average of 500 – 1000 cords [1500-3500 m3] and 2 year time limit to log, but today they are 10 times this size to accommodate the big operators and to minimize government staff development costs. The security deposits for these sales are in the tens of thousands as well, and are often put up by the mills who use their preferred contractors to do the logging.
Tom
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BargeMonkey

 "Trained Logger Certified". Its a big thing up this way, especially in and around the watershed which is about 1/3 of new york I would say. Basically your required to take 1 class per year, and keep your first aid + cpr up to date. There are benefits to it, I get more for my logs, I receive money for completing BMP's on woodlots, and I recieve a higher pay out than loggers who arent, i get a few more per mbft at certain mills. Access to bridges and mats, material for my jobs is usually paid for by the watershed, but they will tell you exactly how things are, and what is going to happen. Alot of guys shy away from it, personally I take their money with a smile.  :D 

Firewoodjoe

Bargemonkey is that like sustainable forestry education here. We have to have 8 hours every year. But at least they try do different things. Come to the woods and do saw training too truck safety in a class room.

Southside

I am a dinosaur around here.  I do have work lined up for the next couple of years, but only because my one man operation production is slow and I will work in the places nobody else will go.  I have my little processor for the pine and some hardwood, the Franklin makes life nice, but I also have a pair of 1/2 sister mares and a single horse that I can use when need be, which is going to be pretty soon down in this maple swail (if the weather holds out) I am in as now I am to where every twitch uses up all the cable on the winch, and that gets old quick.

I had a rather large paper mill contact me and wanted to have me do second thinning with my processor on a 325 AC lot to start, and they had all the ground I could ever handle available.  I went to the mill, met with them, the price was good, and all was good to go, the issue was a specific, non-hired trucking insurance they required me to carry, which nobody would sell to me.  The crazy thing was I was not going to be doing any of the trucking, nor even hiring the trucking companies that would be doing the trucking, I was only doing the logging and loading.  Did not matter at all, not a single insurance company would sell me the coverage, so I had to pass up on the job. 

In the 50 miles I travel to one of the mills I know of two other guys who are doing it like I am, and one of them is well into his 60's if not older, so yea it kinda makes a guy feel like T-Rex after the big flash in the sky.  The one good thing is nobody sees me as a threat and the enforcement folks are too busy chasing the big fish to even notice I am around. 
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tj240

most of the BIG  crews get the job because now they are mostly lump sum, and the big buyers pay them to cut the wood by the cord and thousand. i used to work for companies like that and they dont make alot just payroll and fuel. keep your head up good work will keep you working. lump sum for me is no good. log on keep up the good work to you all
work with my father[jwilly] and my son. we have a 240 tj 160 barko[old] works great three generations working together

BargeMonkey

 I have a relative who is one of the big producers for "wagner-bailies" and they work these guys like rented step children. The deal with the state is only coming down because they have 1/3 of the people than years ago. I see the "big guys" come and go, we had 1 down this way a while ago, 2 stroke delimbers on the header, chip trailers, and the mess is still there.

luvmexfood

Oh no. I'm only 5'6". Does that mean I am facing extinction?
Give me a new saw chain and I can find you a rock in a heartbeat.

longtime lurker

Issue here on the other side of the world is pretty much the same... minus that we don't have any "big guy" left either.

Most of the industry here shut down in the late 1980's following the closure to the rainforest resource... now the state is trying to rebuild the industry based on the eucalypt resource. The knowledge base is pretty much gone - theres plenty of guys floating around with a chainsaw ticket because well... in our brave new world you need a ticket for everything... but guys with production felling experience are limited, and thats a whole different level of ticket here anyway. To get the production ticket you need to actually work in the woods... to walk into the woods first you need to have two other generic tickets plus first aid... etc etc etc. Just to give a guy a start to see if he is interested/capable means I have to send them through a training module and thats a quick grand gone.

Add to that insurance which is (a) hard to source and (b) expensive because they can be, and equipment standards that make it hard to start out with small/old gear and work your way up, and the fact that banks aren't prepared to finance old gear anyway. Then throw in some pretty marginal logs being classed as compulsory sawlogs and a mans got to be mad to be in this game.

I don't like taking my kids out with me because they just might like it. Says a lot huh?
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Kodiakmac

Quote from: ST Ranch on September 15, 2014, 11:30:08 AM
In our area the small logger is almost gone.  Big forest corporations have the support of the provincial [and federal] government and control the log market. Both levels of government have substantially reduced their staff and downloaded the admin costs to the operator [both big and small] so the economy of scale for little operators is also a big factor.

If I go thru the admin hoops and apply to export the logs to the US [about doubles my trucking cost] and an extra handling cost for log scaling, sorting and storage, reload,  brokerage fees, etc, I still get 50% more [gross]for my logs in the US.  But this involves a log yard, scale site, loaders, and associated infrastructure, so AGAIN, you need a big operation to make pay.

For the small operator, we can not compete...Small salvage or public auction timber sales are also a thing of the past....The security deposits for these sales are in the tens of thousands as well, and are often put up by the mills who use their preferred contractors to do the logging.

Aye, indeed.  The little guy has to handle the same amount of bureaucracy and red tape as the big guys...without the luxury of being able to farm it out to administrative staff who are used to the processes.   

Within the last year bids were asked for thinning/salvage on a few small local parcels of Crown land and County forest and no one was interested.  Nobody has the time, energy or inclination to deal with the paper process or to run the gauntlet of regulatory hoops. 

The few remaining small guys in this area are doing select cuts and thinning on private woodlots and selling firewood and feeding small backyard mills that supply niche markets. 
Robin Hood had it just about right:  as long as a man has family, friends, deer and beer...he needs very little government!
Kioti rx7320, Wallenstein fx110 winch, Echo CS510, Stihl MS362cm, Stihl 051AV, Wallenstein wx980  Mark 8:36

BargeMonkey


Quote
The few remaining small guys in this area are doing select cuts and thinning on private woodlots and selling firewood and feeding small backyard mills that supply niche markets.
Thats the only way we are making it, if we just went after the big high grade lots it would be 8 days a week and wouldnt last to long.

lumberjack48

Big Company's ran all us small loggers out of business back in early 80's around here, including the small saw mills.
What i mean by small logger is year round loggers, the only income we had, i'm not talking about the farmer, logger, they went on farming. Most of the farmers were hobby farmers and hobby loggers, their wife's had good jobs, thats how they made it.
Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

Kodiakmac

Quote from: lumberjack48 on October 03, 2014, 03:02:03 PM
"...their wife's had good jobs, thats how they made it."

Aye, that's pretty well what I tell my wife.  "You know what I just figured out Cheri?"  If you could get just one more full-time job, I could be in the bush full-time!"   ;)
Robin Hood had it just about right:  as long as a man has family, friends, deer and beer...he needs very little government!
Kioti rx7320, Wallenstein fx110 winch, Echo CS510, Stihl MS362cm, Stihl 051AV, Wallenstein wx980  Mark 8:36

SwampDonkey

Production is killing the little guy and the reason for that is our timber is being continually devalued. Up here mill's get cheap crown wood and thier own freehold, so you have to compete on production with the big boys if the same wood price is going to pay the bills. Our government lost $millions of dollars each year for a few years from timber management. I think last year they were $35 M in the hole. How the heck can that be? There sure aren't that many rangers eating the budget, they have been cutting and closing offices for 30 years. I see fewer woodlots being cut now. Also, one logger told me that if it hasn't been cut in the last 30 years, it won't be until landownership changes on that lot. And I have seen lots of woodlots flattened with ownership changes, they cut it the next day practically. A lot of large farmers here that own hundreds of acres, if not most, have their woods cut by loggers, they no longer cut much wood themselves if it all. A lot of them loggers are mechanized, as the farmer needs the cash and a quick cut not strung along for 8 months on 200 acres. I see a lot of high graded land for what little money it has generated. You won't retire on it with 200 acres or even 500.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Kodiakmac

Quote from: SwampDonkey on October 04, 2014, 05:30:13 AM
"...I have seen lots of woodlots flattened with ownership changes, they cut it the next day practically. A lot of large farmers here that own hundreds of acres, if not most, have their woods cut by loggers, they no longer cut much wood themselves if it all. A lot of them loggers are mechanized, as the farmer needs the cash and a quick cut not strung along for 8 months on 200 acres. I see a lot of high graded land for what little money it has generated..."

Man, you said a mouthful there!  A lot of the remaining woodlots are being clearcut in this area by large operators (many from Quebec) and then in come the trackhoes and rock-trucks and land is then stumped and grubbed and turned into cropland.  The ridiculous price per acre for farmland - $7,000 to $17,000 per acre depending on which end of the county you're in - is behind it.  They are paying $800 to $1000 per acre for the wood, so the farmer is left with a bit of cash to help with the cost of the rest of the clearing. 

What is behind it all is subsidized ethanol production and our Canadian supply-management system for dairy products.  Both factors are responsible for the insane land prices.  But with corn and beans sitting at basement floor prices for the 2nd year in a row, I'm predicting a drop in enthusiasm for bush-clearing.  Unless of course, this current flat-broke-and-busted Liberal provincial government can borrow another 10 or 20 billion for a "risk management program" for farmers that would to make up any deficit whenever corn fell below $200 (or $300 for that matter) a tonne .

The only good thing about it all is that whenever some old hippy points at the fields of stumps and yells about greed and the despoiling of nature, I get the small satisfaction of pointing out that our collectivist dairy supply management system, and subsidized ethanol production are the primary causes of the moonscapes that offend his eyes.  Both are causes that he and his crowd enthusiastically voted for.
Robin Hood had it just about right:  as long as a man has family, friends, deer and beer...he needs very little government!
Kioti rx7320, Wallenstein fx110 winch, Echo CS510, Stihl MS362cm, Stihl 051AV, Wallenstein wx980  Mark 8:36

OntarioAl

Al Raman

David-L

Kodiakmac,  This corn thing is going to be the demise of a lot of good land that should never be cropland IMO. Now voting for the politician who says he's with you often changes once there in office and I shake my head and wonder why I even voted.  Per acre comparison, what sequesters more carbon with inputs added into the equation. Corn or managed forest land. Pretty sure its the latter. my two cents.

                                                         David l
In two days from now, tomorrow will be yesterday.

Corley5

I bid a MiDNR job a couple weeks ago with a bid I figured I could make $$$ on.  It was 20% over the minimum.  The winner was 75% over and the runner up was 60% over. Both are large harvesting companies.
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

SwampDonkey

The price of farm land that was quoted above is far above anything we see here. $3000 would be tops, I know many farmers here that buy crop land for $1600 an acre on mortgage defaults, far less than it costs to clear. We have a farm land registry that deters anyone from making a bunch of house lots on a field, unless 16 years of back taxes are paid. Then who would build out in the boon docks unless they had a good union job anyway? You won't on $10-12 an hr. Dairy here in NB is only 2 % of national supply, chaff left in the chip bag. No, they are mostly cutting land here for cash. Recent land clearing here has been for potatoes, now the acres of potatoes is way down. Hardly see a potato field this year. And PEI is even worried as McCains is closing plants and reducing or cutting contracts. Those new fields and potato sheds McCains wanted still have to be paid for even if they don't want them potatoes now. Why anyone would think McCains wouldn't cut them off on a whim is beyond me, since their history pretty much proves otherwise. Where will the next woodlot come from to pay the bills?
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

ehp

around here I see no real big guys , most are crews with 1 or 2 skidders , But I believe the number of cutting crews is less than before I moved down here , There seems to be enough timber to cut but the grade of timber is getting a lower grade than what was getting cut before with not so much veneer . I seem to get enough bushes in the 50 to 150 acre range but I cut more 25 to 40 acre bushes and some smaller 10 acre cuts but only if they got good timber on them . I make enough money doing what I love doing and I work by myself so my over head is quite low , everything is paid for and I have not bought anything new and plan on keeping it that way . 1 big time logging company would kill most of us in this area as there is only so much timber and the 2 mills can only handle so much logs , 1 thing I am thinking on thou this year is the corn price sucks and there should be a few more farmers looking to get their bush cut to put some more money in the pocket put I have already got my winter cut lined up and approved for this winter

lopet

What is behind it all is subsidized ethanol production and our Canadian supply-management system for dairy products.

I agree mostly with that, but now those guys are laughing even more , when they can buy cheap feed.
As long as supply management is supported here it only gets worse for all the others who wanna buy land.
As i am surrounded by those guys I am almost thinking about selling. Naaaaaa I rather like to be a pain in the a$$ guy . :) :)
Make sure you know how to fall properly when you fall and as to not hurt anyone around you.
Also remember, it's not the fall what hurts, its the sudden stop. !!

ehp

My own thinking is its going to crash and crash hard in 24 months then lets see how many farms sell for $18,000 plus an acre like they are now but I'm also thinking logging will slow up some but not stop like other jobs are going to see , will someone like me still have work , its hard to say cause I'm the new kid on the block but if I can keep cutting enough good grade timber that might help me out 

Kodiakmac

Quote from: ehp on October 04, 2014, 09:25:20 PM
My own thinking is its going to crash and crash hard in 24 months then lets see how many farms sell for $18,000 plus an acre like they are now but I'm also thinking logging will slow up some but not stop like other jobs are going to see , will someone like me still have work , its hard to say cause I'm the new kid on the block but if I can keep cutting enough good grade timber that might help me out

You know what?  I hope you're right.  Its getting to the point that down in the south end of the county you can't do a 360 without seeing a couple of track-hoe booms off in the distance.   

The one thing that is helping the small guy out here is firewood sales.  The electricity prices in this province are the highest in North America (and going up 42 % in the next 4 years) and furnace oil and n. gas and propane prices went nuts last winter.  I only got about 55 cords of firewood cut and I sold every stick of it...could easily have sold twice, maybe three times that jut within 10 miles of home. 
Robin Hood had it just about right:  as long as a man has family, friends, deer and beer...he needs very little government!
Kioti rx7320, Wallenstein fx110 winch, Echo CS510, Stihl MS362cm, Stihl 051AV, Wallenstein wx980  Mark 8:36

ehp

things have to change cause the country just cannot stand all these increases in cost without making more money , just look at the price of a new skidder , I know I'm not smart enough to figure out how in the hell I could pay for one and I feel I make pretty good money , I know some loggers around me make less than me as they cut more lower grade stuff . Back when I was logging up north we ran up to 7 skidders but down here if we did this we would run out of timber before to long and would have the mills full so no where to sell it so you have to watch everything and try to figure out what is best for you and everyone around you , I'm in Norfolk area so no fear of seeing track-hoes off in the distance , our by-law doesnot like that kind of logging

lopet

I keep saying this for years now and it has gone the other way.  Those big fellas just go out and borrow more, because  they're too cheap to pay their income tax and as long as they can cash flow it, the banks will throw money at them.
Greed  greed greed , that's all there is.
Yes it's going downhill with this country while spending is getting out of hands with the wind turbine scenario, healthcare , roads and bridges and on and on.
Make sure you know how to fall properly when you fall and as to not hurt anyone around you.
Also remember, it's not the fall what hurts, its the sudden stop. !!

Kodiakmac

Quote from: ehp on October 05, 2014, 09:27:19 AM
"...no danger of seeing track-hoes off in the distance , our by-law doesnot like that kind of logging..."

Funny you bring that up.  Our County is being pressured by the tree-huggers to put a by-law in place to prevent tree-cutting.  If it goes ahead, the by-law will have no ability to restrict the kind of tree-cutting that is causing the alleged problem: clearing bush for cropland.

However, it will further strangle us little guys...the fellows who are not causing the problem.  Whether it's firearms, free speech, taxation, or chainsaws, it seems to be the Canadian Way: target the fellows with no political influence, and leave those with political influence (who are causing the problems) alone. 

It's all designed to permit politicians to say they are doing something about problems - but all it is actually doing is giving the appearance that something is being done. 
Robin Hood had it just about right:  as long as a man has family, friends, deer and beer...he needs very little government!
Kioti rx7320, Wallenstein fx110 winch, Echo CS510, Stihl MS362cm, Stihl 051AV, Wallenstein wx980  Mark 8:36

ehp

no clear cutting allowed here by the bylaw , every tree you cut has to be released by the by-law before you can cut it , yes there is alot of red tape but you either put up with it or move some where else cause their not going to change anything just for you and once you learn how everything works its not that bad

Kodiakmac

Quote from: ehp on October 06, 2014, 12:07:41 PM
no clear cutting allowed here by the bylaw , every tree you cut has to be released by the by-law before you can cut it , yes there is alot of red tape but you either put up with it or move some where else cause their not going to change anything just for you and once you learn how everything works its not that bad

I guess I have a problem going to ask some bureaucrat's permission to cut down a tree that I bought and paid for when I purchased the land it grows on.  I hate seeing nice bushes being turned into cornfields, but the all-to-typical reaction is to create legislation - which further erodes the freedom to own, use, and enjoy private property.  And that, is a far bigger and more enduring problem than too many forests being converted to croplands. 

When (not if) the false economies collapse, the fields will go back to scrub-land in no time at all, and the successional forest stages will go through their cycle.  But, there will be no regeneration of our lost property rights.
Robin Hood had it just about right:  as long as a man has family, friends, deer and beer...he needs very little government!
Kioti rx7320, Wallenstein fx110 winch, Echo CS510, Stihl MS362cm, Stihl 051AV, Wallenstein wx980  Mark 8:36

luvmexfood

What we are seeing down this way as far as farmland is people that have made a substantional amount of money, usually in the coal business, buying up farmland. Don't need to make any money on it. Went by a hayfield one day after they were through bailing. Six tractors setting there and two bailers, two rakes, and some other misc. equipment. All the tractors except one were probably a minimun of 80 HP, cabs etc. One was probably a 45-50 hp. Gone is the small hundred acre farmers.
Give me a new saw chain and I can find you a rock in a heartbeat.

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