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what to do ctl or hand cut

Started by ABTS, September 13, 2014, 09:07:58 AM

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ABTS

well I'm going to ask this question. My brother and I have a harvester and a log truck so we are in the business we subcontract in central Wi. Things are tight but the thought and opportunity has come up to maybe just hand cut. Would be a lot less money for equipment and cheaper to fix . The accountant said we did better this year than last. My brother and I are both ex mechanics so there is very little we can't fix so that's not the issue . Just which can be more profitable. I really like doing what we do,not quite as much freedom as a person would like . Neither of us are afraid of work been doing it for 30 years. just thinking of anew path but not sure . What do you all think I know a good portion of you hand cut. thanks

thenorthman

Hand cut and skid, or just hand cut?

If yer just hand cutting then the chance to make some decent cash is there, set your own pace, and a guy can put a lot of wood down in one day.

If your cutting and skidding, things slow down a bit, but with two of ya working you can usually get 7-10 mbf a day. Depending on the wood of course.

The upside is skidders are tough, and saws are relatively cheap, so maintenance is pretty easy, compared to a harvester or anything with tracks and/or a boom.
well that didn't work

ABTS


snowstorm


jdament

I'm the brother to abts and the e are not sure if it would be a cable skidder or a forwarder.  Would depend on if we would do pulp or not.

BargeMonkey

 What do you have for a harvester right now ? CTL seems nice, not fighting the brush, wading thru snow, looks cleaner. Dont know what your terrain is but around here unless your just strictly cutting on the state or flat land it cant be done with just a harvester and forwarder, even the CTL guys have 1-2 skidders and a dozer to get that hard to reach wood. Down the road I want a Rolly 2 head and a 6 wheeler, because the handwriting is on the wall between the insurance, lack of qualified help and size of woodlots coming out. Kinda gotta mix and match a bit.

timberlinetree

I hand cut because that's my only choice right now,and all I've ever done and probably ever do.
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Tarm

Gentlemen:
In Wisconsin, loggers for the most part thin red pine plantations, clear cut aspen stands and thin maple and/or oak hardwoods. The first two are ideally suited for mechanization. In thinning hardwoods there is an opportunity for hand cutters. As a private woodland owner I can tell you that I very much liked the "light touch" a hand cut logging job can do. Now that said I can not think of a way you could avoid cutting pulp. The whole point of employing hand cutters is to get skillful sawlog bucking and good utilization of the top wood. The crew that worked my job had two cutters and a guy running the forwarder. They put out a lot of production and did an outstanding job. I think there is a place for hand cutters in Wisconsin but you need to find the right kind of job.

ABTS

We have a fabtek 153 harvester with a fabtek a roller head . the up keep can be pricey. the hoses are bad news with this machine you are forever blowing hoses . Have found if its not one thing on it it is something else . Maybe the age is the factor it is a 2000. runs good hydraulics are ok but hoses and measuring system wiring bad news . I guessis just a thought about handcutting . It would be nice not to have to work all weekend and not have to fix all weekend . Between tha harvester and the log truck lots of work.

BargeMonkey

 Ive heard the 4 roller heads are nasty with hoses. Ive seen a few but they arent to common around here. Have you thought about buying a 415-425 with a barsaw, thats all im running and do 90% of the limbing and topping with that. Another local guy has a new timberpro, franklin forwarder and deere dozer, puts out over 1mil bft a year all by himself, ive seen a few operations geared that way. Hand cutting is nice every once in a while, but I work alone, and not even the safety end, more of a "time" thing, I need to produce enough to make it worth while, thats how I look at it.

bushmechanic

 The question is, do you own the fabtec? If so you could try hand cutting and park the machine.You won't lose that much value off it by letting it sit for a while. A guy I used to work for had a John Deere 1263 he figured that it was too much overhead and went back to the chainsaws. I pleaded with him to park the machine but no he had too sell it..... big mistake! A year later he was plagued with back troubles and couldn't get men to work thus no wood  to the landing. He then had to go and buy another harvester, got a 1070 Timberjack but that turned out to be another wrenching nightmare for months until it got ironed out. My advice is try it before you make the plunge and sell everything, three new saws will only cost 1500.00 give or take.

Corley5

My 133 Fabtek is a hose monster, has an electrical glitch on occasion and can be frustrating for sure but I'd never go back to cutting with only a chainsaw.
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lopet

You have made the switch and i am glad it's working out for you, but it does not work out for everyone.
Make sure you know how to fall properly when you fall and as to not hurt anyone around you.
Also remember, it's not the fall what hurts, its the sudden stop. !!

Corley5

  I have no idea on the availability of trucking in your area but if there are reliable trucking contractors I'd get rid of the log truck first. 
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

chevytaHOE5674

I agree with Corley on ditching the log truck if another reliable trucker is available. In order for a log truck to make money it needs to be moving all the time so unless you hire a driver ($$$$$) then it has to sit while you cut wood.

We run a processor/forwarder operation and also have a log truck. And the single biggest money pit we have is by far the truck. If that truck isn't running 8~10 hours a day at least 5 days a week then it is wasting money.

ABTS

We have thought about getting rid of the truck and getting a forwarder instead . The harvester is not paid  for yet . We all ready have done some handcutting small scale have a 2165 jred 372 and 935 husky. So saws aren't and issue. All great thoughts more to ponder on. Keep them coming. As I said before we subcontract so , have a forwarder already following us . I would like to be able to buy my own wood but that brings in a new bunch of headaches but more money for my company.

barbender

Fwiw, of the guys I know that are subcontracted with a harvester, the ones that are focused exclusively on their harvester are doing the best. One outfit has a forwarder as well, I don't know that it really makes him any money.
Too many irons in the fire

1270d

I didn't realize there was guys only subbing with a harvester.

ABTS

We do alright . I guess if you really crunch the numbers the harvester is probably a bit more profitable. The truck seems to be a never ending cost with tires permits fuel and anyother repairs . It really has its weeks . Just spent 3000 on the saw valve on the harvester than 3 weeks later 3000 for a blown up diff on the truck. The truck has costed more this year so for with the blown engine than the diff. But that all seems to even out over time

Ken

Hand cutting small lots will always present opportunities for those interested.  If you work in an area with higher value sawlogs I could see where a skidder and forwarder would be a good fit with hand cutting.  If however the majority of the timber harvests are heavy to pulp I would not give up the harvester.  You and others have mentioned that the Fabteks are hose eaters.  Do you run 4 braid hose and have them individually wrapped?  That should eliminate some issues.   As has been already been said "dump the truck first"  I'm getting ready to get rid of ours.  Continual money pit.
Lots of toys for working in the bush

snowstorm

dosent the fabtek have the valves for the head on the machine. so if you break a hose its a long one. i bought a hose 2 weeks ago the first one in well over a year. if they tend to break only in one spot then have 2 made instead of one long one. then your only buying a short one each time.

deastman

I've got a Fabtek four-roller head but I don't have any issues with the hoses on it. I have protective wrap on most of them and have only had to replace two hoses since last fall.
.
Samsung 130 LCM-3 with Fabtek 4-roller and Cat 554 forwarder, Cat EL 180 excavator, Cat D3C dozer, Cat D7E dozer, '92 Ford LTL 9000 dump, Easy-2-Load 25 Ton tag-a-long, current project under construction: '91 Peterbilt 379 with a Hood 8000 w/extenda-boom loader

treeslayer2003

to answer your question, it depends on what you cut the most of...........i do both hand falling big timber and i have a bell for pole wood.........honestly i make more money on 10 count loads than 20 count every time even if i get less loads. that said, if all you have in front of you is little wood......i will get in the bell every time.

barbender

Quote from: 1270d on September 14, 2014, 03:49:43 PM
I didn't realize there was guys only subbing with a harvester.
I work for a large logging outfit, and they employ 5 subcontractors with harvesters, and only one of them has a forwarder. The company takes care of the forwarding.
Too many irons in the fire

jdament

We do have all the head hoses made into two pieces so just the little ones blow.  We go in spurts on the hoses blowing.  We do a lot of pine first thinning and squeezing the head in between trees really works on the
hoses.

RHP Logging

Size of the timber is really going to be it. If the pulp count outnumbers the board footage its pretty tough to make money hand cutting.  Also unless you are hand cutting a [I have typed a profane word that is automatically changed by the forum censored words program I should know better] ton of pulp everyday it will be tough to keep a truck around to haul your pulp. Trucking is usually available for logs from the mills. Getting rid of that *DanG pulp can be old.  I would keep the truck and buy a forwarder if the size of the wood is right.  I have guys tell me all the time, they wish they could sell their equipment and buy an older forwarder and some saws. Skidders are kind of limited down here when crops are on the field.  Most farmers don't want to give up the room anymore for a landing.  You don't need much with a forwarder.  That said I'd could really use a smaller cable skidder from time to time. In the end I would guess your take home pay is going to be close to the same with a lot less headaches and probably less hours in at the job. You have to have decent sized timber though.  Hand cutting mostly pulp is slow starvation.
Buckin in the woods

ABTS

My brother and I have thought long and hard about the options . would be nice if fuel prices would drop more or the rates went up to reflect the add cost . When we first bought the truck fuel was a buckand a half cheaper. They add on a percentage but that doesn't cover it . We will probably keep both and try to buy a forwarder . I thank all for the food for thought !

deastman

If you bought a forwarder to go with the processor then you would have the whole operation including the truck and you could buy your own stumpage and lots. Sometimes it hard to make money subbing for someone else.
Samsung 130 LCM-3 with Fabtek 4-roller and Cat 554 forwarder, Cat EL 180 excavator, Cat D3C dozer, Cat D7E dozer, '92 Ford LTL 9000 dump, Easy-2-Load 25 Ton tag-a-long, current project under construction: '91 Peterbilt 379 with a Hood 8000 w/extenda-boom loader

ABTS

That is what I would like to do . Than at least I am getting all the benefits from the sale . I know other headaches come with it.  But why do work for someone else.

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