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Which Sharpener?

Started by FarmingSawyer, September 10, 2014, 06:38:09 PM

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FarmingSawyer

I know it's been written about many times here...and I've probably read them all..... and While I would love a Cook's Cat's Claw....I just can't afford one. SO.....Which budget minded sharpener should I go for? Is the EZ Boardwalk worth it? I run Timberwolf 1-1/2 x 7/8ths.... I've lucked out that there is a saw shop within 30 min of where I'm working now.....but I'm working 75 miles from home. There isn't anyone near where I live, although if I drive 25min I can drop off bands at a mill, to be picked up, by the saw shop I'm using now....

But I'm really thinking I need to take the plunge and get a sharpener....if only to reclaim the 3 blades the saw shop just rejected because they won't go through their  machine--one's missing a tooth, another one has a factory defective extra long gullet at the weld, and another one has a kink that won't allow it to go around the automated loop......I also believe if I could touch up the teeth I wouldn't be trying to get a few extra cuts out of them.....

And while I'd really like a dual tooth setter....my budget is 0....so I might have to go with a single setter for the time being. Does this sound worth it, or should I just re-sharp for a while longer and try to save up for the pro-toys? What other options aren't I considering?

Thomas 8020, Stihl 039, Stihl 036, Homelite Super EZ, Case 385, Team of Drafts

Dave Shepard

For the cost of the equipment, you could buy a lot of bands, then you could time your visits to the saw shop when it is more convenient. Those rejected bands might be better off on the scrap heap. As mentioned in another thread, I keep close to 100 bands in rotation. I use FedEx, so I can send mine in whenever, but having 50 bands on hand, you can do quite a bit of sawing, especially if you stay away from those nail infested logs. :)
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Delawhere Jack

Watch the Cooks' Cats' Claw demos on Youtube over and over again, taking notes..... then build your own!  ;D



 

I never looked at the EZB sharpener, but it was probably out of my budget too. I'm with Dave, use a resharpening service for now while you focus on getting all the other gear you need.

bandmiller2

FS, before I bought my cats claw I sharpened my bands on a modified bench grinder. Basically it was just an angled rest and shaped grinding wheel. Suffolk Timberwolf bands out on Long Island had free plans to convert a bench grinder, they even had a video. A setter is quite easy to make. Mayby if you hand sharpened once or twice between sending them out it would workout especially if the shop sets the bands too. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Jemclimber

Quote from: bandmiller2 on September 10, 2014, 08:57:11 PM
A setter is quite easy to make. Mayby if you hand sharpened once or twice between sending them out it would workout especially if the shop sets the bands too. Frank C.

Pineywoods has a nice tutorial on making a dual tooth setter "on the cheap" and easy to make.
lt15

NMFP

I caution you on using the bench grinder method or chainsaw sharpener method as I have seen to real butcher jobs and some that have caused major problems.  A customer of mine had one and used it all the time.  He asked me to sharpen a few bands for him as he said they just wouldn't cut.  I looked at them and found that they had a negative hook angle due to deep grinding and when he tried to trace the gullet, actually weakened the teeth to the point that my pushers would brake the teeth of running the band through the sharpener.  Long story short, I now sharpen all of his bands every week and his band blade usage went from just over 40 bands per week to about 20 or so.  He found that it was infact costing him money vs saving him money. 

If I were you, I would save the money and just buy a good sharpener or use a sharpening service.  I know that I do not like working on bands that have been butchered and I am sure I am not the only one.  I have no problem sharpening bands with teeth broken or missing as I have ways of dealing with that.  If you buy a simple sharpener, in my own opinion, its just a waste of money that could be better spent on a quality piece of equipment that some of the sponsors of the forum sell.

Magicman

Sharpening is not a "one size fits all" situation.  At first I used a local guy, but after buying some new blades, I realized just how bad his sharpening job was.  That led me to Wood-Mizer's Resharp.  Twelve years later and I am still using the WM sharpening service and I will continue to do so.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

NMFP

I agree there are some butchers out there but some of us have built a good solid business manufacturing and sharpening.  Wood Mizer and some others have great services but so do some of us that take pride in our work.  I think that's proof that a big company doesn't always have the best service out there and that there are independents that do just as well, if not better some times.  We all have strengths and weaknesses.

Case in point is independent repair shops for cars.  Yes, dealerships can do well but there are independent garages that sometimes know more or have the same if not better ability to preform the service than the dealership.

Magicman

QuoteI agree there are some butchers out there but some of us have built a good solid business manufacturing and sharpening.
Yes there are, and their services are of great value to the sawing community.  If your resharps are not equal to a new blade, then you are using the wrong resharp service.

When learning to saw, you need to know; "is it me, is it the sawmill, is it the log, or is it the blade".

For a new sawyer on a limited budget, my recommendation is always to master his sawing skills before taking on an entirely different resharpening operation with more skills to master. 
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

NMFP

Exactly.  I have been rather busy getting guys to understand that when you are running a mill, it does not matter the brand or the condition but that you must have good blades.  Its no different than a guy buying a 1200$ chain saw and using a worn out chain. 

I only wish people would understand that there is more to sharpening a band than just grinding the teeth and making them sharp. 

I have a band in my shop that I kept to show people.  The gullet depth is only about 1/16" as they had sharpened just the teeth and wondered why each sharpening the band cut worse.

All of us that do any kind of production sharpening understand the value in good quality blades and blades that are taken care of.  Its the heart of the machine and without good blades, the maximum potential is not achieved.  Aggravation is achieved though!

backwoods sawyer

You cover some real good points about it being more then just making the saw sharp.

The production mill done all their sharpening in house, whiched allowed the filers to be in the saw shack before a set of saws were pulled off and each filer had his own set of saws. They would get about six month production out a set of saws. These were 12" saws that got benched on a regular basis.
It would take a week or to of sawing at reduced speeds to get a new set of saws tuned up.

I have both the Cooks and WM sharpener/setters and they can be finiky at times and I have ruined more then a few saws while sharpening.

With a new mill us a reputable filing service like MM and focus on sawing. Sawing with miss ground or miss set saws can be a real pain  ;)
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

barbender

Too many irons in the fire

FarmingSawyer

Definitely good info here! I agree, even after years of sawing with my band mill, it's difficult enough to do without adding stuff like screwing up bands as I learn to sharpen them. I was thinking today as I cut how i view each log as practice for the next.....and when I can and it doesn't matter I grade saw pine and other common logs...no harm in keeping skills sharp while dulling blades.....

If it's true that I can get the re-sharp service to pick up the bands weekly nearby then I will go that way....It's just heartbreaking to hear them tell me a new band won't go through their machine and has to be rejected.... But they are also miles ahead of the other saw shop I was using in terms of sharpening services...and they set each band every time its sharpened....I lost a lot of bands to the other service after only 1 or 2 sharpenings.....I just figured that was the way it was....until I joined the FF!

It's just hard when I'm out in the Boonies having taken out every sharp band on a row of trees with hardware disease.....gets the mind thinking..... Until business kicks off better I've got to add to the band count slowly....buying 12 bands in a week--while waiting for resharp--, 3 at a time has been costly upfront....Should have just ordered 10 from Suffolk in the 1st place.....
Thomas 8020, Stihl 039, Stihl 036, Homelite Super EZ, Case 385, Team of Drafts

FarmingSawyer

Definitely good info here! I agree, even after years of sawing with my band mill, it's difficult enough to do without adding stuff like screwing up bands as I learn to sharpen them. I was thinking today as I cut how i view each log as practice for the next.....and when I can and it doesn't matter I grade saw pine and other common logs...no harm in keeping skills sharp while dulling blades.....

If it's true that I can get the re-sharp service to pick up the bands weekly nearby then I will go that way....It's just heartbreaking to hear them tell me a new band won't go through their machine and has to be rejected.... But they are also miles ahead of the other saw shop I was using in terms of sharpening services...and they set each band every time its sharpened....I lost a lot of bands to the other service after only 1 or 2 sharpenings.....I just figured that was the way it was....until I joined the FF!

It's just hard when I'm out in the Boonies having taken out every sharp band on a row of trees with hardware disease.....gets the mind thinking..... Until business kicks off better I've got to add to the band count slowly....buying 12 bands in a week--while waiting for resharp--, 3 at a time has been costly upfront....Should have just ordered 10 from Suffolk in the 1st place.....
Thomas 8020, Stihl 039, Stihl 036, Homelite Super EZ, Case 385, Team of Drafts

Ga Mtn Man

Quote from: backwoods sawyer on September 11, 2014, 04:39:39 PM
...us a reputable filing service like MM and focus on sawing. Sawing with miss ground or miss set saws can be a real pain  ;)

Magicman has a filing service? :o  No wonder he doesn't have time to sharpen his own blades. :D
"If the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy." - Red Green


2012 LT40HDG29 with "Superized" hydraulics,  2 LogRite cant hooks, home-built log arch.

Magicman

I'm gonna change my initials to WM.  ;D  That way I will always have sharp blades. :D 
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Peter Drouin

I like mine, Wood Mizer CBN Sharpener in oil, and dual tooth setter Will make your blades like new. ;D


  

 
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

tule peak timber

Ditto on Peters post. I continuously sharpen and occasionally set during the day with great performance....Rob
persistence personified - never let up , never let down

barbender

If your going to keep sawing as many hardware trees as you have been, you better just buy equipment or you will go broke with sharpening costs. Hardware strikes that rip teeth off often kink the band, too, so it will never run right. If you are running on a shoe string budget, you need to reject known yard trees and others likely to have metal in them.
Too many irons in the fire

backwoods sawyer

Even when you have your own sharpening equipment you have to reject some saws. Out of twenty saws these three got quartered up and went to the scrap pile today, four others went into the winter sharpening pile for when I can put the time into grinding them back to life, and a new box of saws was ordered 



 

The last few jobs we have gone thru the saws due to metal strikes, all second and third run saws, just part of portable sawing for others.
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

bandmiller2

Sharpening bands like sharpening any edged tool is a skill that must be acquired. Best advice copy the angles and set of a new band. There are some folks that pick up the skill fast and easily some never do. I had good luck sharpening by hand but it was tiring and tedious. If you are a serious sawyer you will pay for good sharpening equipment faster than you realize, after that its all money that never left your pocket. Down side, no excuse for running a dull band. If you live at the end of the supply line its even handier. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Magicman

QuoteDown side, no excuse for running a dull band.
There is never an acceptable excuse for running a dull band whether you resharpen or not.  It is very bad economy.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

NMFP

Exactly.  If your going to run a bad band, you might as well put it on backwards!

terrifictimbersllc

Quote from: FarmingSawyer on September 10, 2014, 06:38:09 PM
I know it's been written about many times here...and I've probably read them all..... and While I would love a Cook's Cat's Claw....I just can't afford one. SO.....Which budget minded sharpener should I go for? Is the EZ Boardwalk worth it? I run Timberwolf 1-1/2 x 7/8ths.... I've lucked out that there is a saw shop within 30 min of where I'm working now.....but I'm working 75 miles from home. There isn't anyone near where I live, although if I drive 25min I can drop off bands at a mill, to be picked up, by the saw shop I'm using now....

But I'm really thinking I need to take the plunge and get a sharpener....if only to reclaim the 3 blades the saw shop just rejected because they won't go through their  machine--one's missing a tooth, another one has a factory defective extra long gullet at the weld, and another one has a kink that won't allow it to go around the automated loop......I also believe if I could touch up the teeth I wouldn't be trying to get a few extra cuts out of them.....

And while I'd really like a dual tooth setter....my budget is 0....so I might have to go with a single setter for the time being. Does this sound worth it, or should I just re-sharp for a while longer and try to save up for the pro-toys? What other options aren't I considering?
I agree with the answers above about doing only professional grade sharpening, but there could be reasonable exceptions for an individual. Some of the answer depends on how much you saw and whether you saw for customers (not stated in the OP).  Buying sharpening equipment to recover 3 blades doesn't make sense on a zero budget nor does it make financial sense in purchasing it to avoid $100-$200 a year in resharp expense.  If just sawing for yourself and can tolerate low speed/quality than some "touch up" option might save a little money (if time and quality don't count in the financial equation).  New equipment will be growing old at some rate (not wearing out, but getting old compared to new versions the mfgr will be coming out with). There will be a learning curve, and the more the equipment is needed/used, the more time will be spent sharpening.
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

FarmingSawyer

QuoteSome of the answer depends on how much you saw and whether you saw for customers (not stated in the OP).

I've been sawing about 4000-6000 BF a year for the past few years, mostly for myself and friends. I'm on my 1st large paying job away from my woodlot. I'll hit my yearly average on just this one job in the few weeks I'm working on it.

I used to live near by a resharp shop. I now live over an hour away. But I've also learned a few things.... I used to think I was doing something wrong and that bands only lasted 2 sharpenings.....And I was having problems with re-sharp bands diving in wood. I figured it was because I grabbed a hardwood set blade--noted when it went in to resharp, but not when it came back-- to cut wide pine. Without knowing about setting or having a gauge, back then, I was running blind. Since then I've learned that MANY people using that service had short band lives. The bands would fail at the gullet, and the sets were never correct. Unfortunately they were the only service in that area--other than sending them out--so I muddled through and bought new bands as I could and threw out a lot of broken bands..... I kept a rotation of 5 bands on and 5 at re-sharp at all times.

Last year I went and got all my bands back and bought a few new. Sure enough I broke a couple of the resharp bands--on the 2nd sharpening--and used a few more. I didn't do much sawing in the past year. When I got to the job I'm doing now and took the bands to a service which does large mill bands, they immediately rejected 3 of the bands sharpened by the 1st service. They would have been on their 2nd sharpening. Like I said above I was fortunate to find this service close to where I'm working, but quite a distance from home base. Their lead time is a week, but because I go in direct and I've been talking with the re-sharp kid-I think he's all of 20--their going to have the 8 bands I dropped off on Wednesday ready Monday.....

I'm starting to acquire a few jobs for the coming months and next spring I hope to be cutting a house frame, on top of any milling I'll do for myself. This is why I'm exploring options other than re-sharp. It sounds like for now, I'll keep upping my stock of new blades and try to keep using the service I'm using. I've got to hunt down the mill that's 20-ish miles away and talk to them about dropping bands off there. It's a pretty big operation, so it will be fun to drop in and see if I can visit.
Thomas 8020, Stihl 039, Stihl 036, Homelite Super EZ, Case 385, Team of Drafts

bandmiller2

FS apparently its hard to find a good resharp service, lets hope the new guys do better. Two sharpenings before breakage is a dismal track record. Sounds like your old service wasen't setting or setting unevenly. I get at least 10--12 sharpenings before the bands loose the hard edge and start wondering. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

NMFP

Every so often you will find some bands that get a low resharp rate but in general, I have numerous customers that have bands that have been  sharpened 8-12 times. 

Somewhere, I have a sample of a band that I was sent by a customer that sharpened his own bands with a chainsaw sharpener.  The band was ran new and then sharpened one time and very horribly.  Every gullet has a crack in it.  If I can find a camera, I can get a picture posted as to what horrible sharpening does to a band.

backwoods sawyer

I had a box of saws I used to fine of a stone on and gullet cracks showed up after the first sharpening :o heat in the gullets is a bad thing.
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

prittgers

Great question!  Your mill is just so much iron without a good blade.  You can see what damage to a blade can happen when it's not ground properly in my post earlier today.

There is a new grinder coming out from one of the industries leaders.  It may include a setter in the same machine.  Keep an eye out.  It may be just what you need!

Get your own grinder and setter - even if it seems a sacrifice of hard earned money.  And get a CBN grinder - nothing else gives you the precision. 

I did and would never go back!
Parker Rittgers
Professional Sawyer, Retired, well, not really !
WoodMizer Alaska | 907.360.2497 cell 336.5143 office BevelSider.com ? Everything BevelSider
907.336.5143
prittgers@aksamill.com

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