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Is this chain ruined?

Started by cstoney04, September 07, 2014, 10:14:16 PM

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cstoney04

So I graduated up to Husqvarna's 562xp from my 455 rancher.  I put about 10 cords through the 455 but was running into some 24" trees on my property that were no fun to buck with the rancher.  It managed but was tedious.  Anyways, after the running the 562xp for a few weeks I needed to hit the rakers. The Rancher uses a H80-72 chain whereas the 562xp uses an H46-72 (both for 20" bars).  I successfully sharpened the rakers on the Rancher a few times using a combination of the oregon depth gauge tool and husqvarna's version; but the rakers on the 562xp chain were considerably different.

Needless to say I filed them down pretty good, but not only that, I totally botched the angle on the front of the depth gauge.  I sharpened the teeth as well when I did the depth gauges, but when I went to use the saw, I was getting saw dust, and had to force the chainsaw into to the wood.  Not wanting to ruin the saw I quit for the day and ordered a few more chains.  But is this one ruined?  Some of the angles/shape on the front of the dept gauge seem pretty flat compared to those on the new chains.



 
Husky 562xp and 435; Scag 61" Hydro; '05 Kawasaki KVF 700;  Echo PB 750H & SRM-22; 2x Fiskars X27; PTR 91 GI, Stag Model 1,  M&P9

Hilltop366

Hi and welcome, did you have the chain off the saw?

cstoney04

No, I use a granberg for the teeth and used the husqvarna gauge seen here:

http://www.husqvarna.com/us/support/working-with-chainsaws/filing-the-chain/

for the rakers.  But I removed the gauge and free-handed because the rakers weren't proud of the gauge by much at all if any.  (ie it didn't seem like I was taking off very much if any at all using the gauge).  The chips just before this were noticably smaller when cutting with the saw than when the chain was new (roughly 3-4 passes with the granberg)
Husky 562xp and 435; Scag 61" Hydro; '05 Kawasaki KVF 700;  Echo PB 750H & SRM-22; 2x Fiskars X27; PTR 91 GI, Stag Model 1,  M&P9

Hilltop366

Looks like there is plenty of raker taken off, the reason I was asking if you had the chain off is I was wondering if it was on backwards, I guess not.

Maine logger88

If the rakers are too low just take more off the teeth and don't touch the rakers for awhile
79 TJ 225 81 JD 540B Husky and Jonsered saws

mad murdock

Welcome to the forum Stoney!  Kind of hard to tell from the pic if the cutters are sharp. Looks to me like 4-5 strokes wasn't enough.  You want the cutter sharp across the top plate, and a nice sharp corner on the chisel. Looks like more passes are needed on the cutters, but another pic (close up) would make it easier for us to give you good guidance. As far as depth gauges to, the most important is that they be consistent i. e. same height. Don't give up, you will get it.
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

beenthere

QuoteBut I removed the gauge and free-handed because the rakers weren't proud of the gauge by much at all if any.

The rakers should not be "proud" of the gauge by much, so you were good to go and didn't know it.

Your chain is not ruined IMO, but continue to saw with it, and eventually the teeth will be sharpened back to meet up with the low rakers. If it doesn't saw well, then chuck it and use a replacement.

That Husky gauge is what I use for filing the rakers as well, and I use the rollers to maintain tooth depth when hand filing each tooth. It is a great tool, IMO.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

LeeB

I would say you took a big plenty off the rakers. Looks to me like the tooth at the tang end of the file is somewhat rounded at the leading edge. Needs more sharpening.
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

thecfarm

cstoney04,welcome to the forum. Sharping a chain is easy. Once you understand how.  ;D There are witness marks on each tooth,they are at an angle. Those need to be just about the same width on both. It took me a while to catch on to it too. And my Father could do a super job on a chain. I would suspect yoputube has a bunch on it. Sharping guides might help you out too. Good luck.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

JohnG28

The reason your depth gauge wasn't showing you needed to take much off them was probably because you didn't need to file them yet. The rakers don't need to be filed as often as the cutting teeth. Every 3-5 times you file the cutters depending on what you're doing is usually about right, as least in my experience. The rakers don't need to be sharp either,  their primary function is to get the correct distance between the top plate of the cutter and the wood being cut. The cutters do the cutting. Oddly, the scenario you explain with the fine dust could be due to the rakers needing to be filed, but I'm thinking more likely in this case the cutters themselves are dull. Hard to tell but the last one to the right in your picture looks as if it may be rounded off? Also, having the angle on the front of the raker isn't super important, after setting the height of it correctly round off the front edge a little so it's not blunt and it should be fine. I believe you need to look at your sharpening techniques here though. Welcome to the forum,  btw.  :)
Stihl MS361, 460 & 200T, Jonsered 490, Jonsereds 90, Husky 350 & 142, Homelite XL and Super XL

Al_Smith

There are different trains of thought on raker filing .I myslf only take them down 3 or 4 times during the entire life of the chain .

Hilltop366

I once had to remove a stump that was in between a sidewalk and the road and did not have enough room to dig it out without damaging the pavement or sidewalk so I dug on 2 sides of the stump and put a old chain that had been filed back to its limit on my saw. It worked good for about 20 seconds until I hit a rock, after sharpening and cutting a few times I ran out of tooth to sharpen so with nothing to loose I ground the rakers off and I can say without a doubt that if the chain is dull it will not cut even with no rakers.

bandmiller2

04, doesn't look like anything wrong refile the teeth and have at it, gauges look right. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Hilltop366

This may help https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTsJe5-ECpg.

Take a good look at the top of the cutters and compare them with your new chain, if the chain was dull enough to only produce dust instead of chips it is going to need a bunch more filing.

Don't give up on this chain it will teach you lots once you get it to cut right.

JohnG28

Quote from: LeeB on September 08, 2014, 01:54:50 AM
I would say you took a big plenty off the rakers. Looks to me like the tooth at the tang end of the file is somewhat rounded at the leading edge. Needs more sharpening.

Missed your post Lee. I agree. If you find the chain is way off and varies a lot cutter to cutter and rakers are off here and there might take it to the local shop and have them grind it for you. Long as they're decent you should be back at a good starting place then and can be mindful of future sharpening with a file on your own. Out of curiosity,  how much have you cut with that 562? The bar looks a little beat up for a new saw unless it's had a good bit of run time.
Stihl MS361, 460 & 200T, Jonsered 490, Jonsereds 90, Husky 350 & 142, Homelite XL and Super XL

Jim_Rogers

I use a raker depth gauge. You put it over two teeth and file off what sticks up. Seems to keep my rakers at the right distance when they need touching up. As mentioned only after several sharpenings.
The gauge will tell you if you need to file any off. slide a file over it and if it cuts raker then file them all. if it doesn't then they don't need any work.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Al_Smith

In an ideal situation all cutters would be the same length,same angle .Rakers same depth .

In the real world unless a person is anal about how they file or grind that seldom happens .Surprisingly regardless of that if it is sharp there really isn't much difference .

Ha I'm getting to like the chain wars about as much as I delight in the oil wars . 8)

Hitchcock Woods

If you have a Dremel tool or something similar you can use a stone grinder to take the teeth down 20x faster than a hand file.  The hand file is better suited for putting a sharper edge but the Dremel is much faster.  I usually use the stone grinder to make all the teeth/ angles the same and do ~ 2 strokes with the hand file to give it the sharpest edge.  Just make sure your gauges fit your teeth.
Chain Saws         Vehicles            LogSplitter
MS 192TC          6100D x2     TimberWolf TW3
MS 391               L2800
MS 441              HPX Gator
346XP           Honda4x4 Rancher
372XP              4x4 Frontier
HT 101 x2
MS 311

SawTroll

Quote from: cstoney04 on September 07, 2014, 10:41:02 PM
No, I use a granberg for the teeth and used the husqvarna gauge seen here:

http://www.husqvarna.com/us/support/working-with-chainsaws/filing-the-chain/

for the rakers.  But I removed the gauge and free-handed because the rakers weren't proud of the gauge by much at all if any.  (ie it didn't seem like I was taking off very much if any at all using the gauge).  The chips just before this were noticably smaller when cutting with the saw than when the chain was new (roughly 3-4 passes with the granberg)

The gauge you first used on the rakers is excellent, so just trust it - provided you used the correct one.

Your real issue likely is the cutters themselves, that wasn't properly sharpened - did you really have the file at the correct higth, and used the right size file (7/32")?

Dust instead of chips isn't a result of low rakers - it will just cut roughly, and possibly stall the saw if it isn't up to it.

Information collector.

Al_Smith

A Dremel type is good for repairing a damaged chain .Like you tried to cut a rock into or a steel fence post .

Other that that the only time I use one is for my version of a race chain which I might add takes forever almost .Fact I have to be in a "mood " to ever file one .4 plus hours to cut 2-3 tenths of a second off cut times   good grief . :D

JohnG28

Quote from: SawTroll on September 08, 2014, 11:15:18 AM

Dust instead of chips isn't a result of low rakers - it will just cut roughly, and possibly stall the saw if it isn't up to it.

Agreed, but dust is indicative of rakers too high if the chain is sharp. In this case however it's not the case, as the rakers are down plenty but still dust.  ;)
Stihl MS361, 460 & 200T, Jonsered 490, Jonsereds 90, Husky 350 & 142, Homelite XL and Super XL

thecfarm

I'm with Al. I don't do much with the rakers. I must be doing something right,because it pulls into the wood.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Al_Smith

If you get the rakers too low it will shake the fillings right out of your teeth or in my case shake the china clippers out of my head .If you have a large enough saw it will try to pull the saw and you through the log .

If I remember correctly something like large 1/2" chipper chain used on old gear drives are set at like 35 thou .I think 3/8" chisel is about 24-26 thou .

FWIW often "race chain " is up around 22 thou .So it's not the rakers that set the cut--it's the cutters .

Filing is more simple that people try to make it .The secret is getting a good working corner .The junction  where the side plate meets the top plate .Remember the side does the cutting ,the top plate lifts the chip .

cstoney04

Thanks for all the feedback guys.  Really do appreciate it.  I had been cutting down a lot of stumps so maybe it was the teeth.  I will try getting the cutters good and sharp.  Everything I had read said that saw dust meant the depth gauges were too high (assuming normal sharpening of the teeth). 

Out of curiousity, how often do your switch your round files?  On the granberg, the sharpening side is fixed, so I try to do an 1/8th to 1/4 turn every few sharpenings.

I did my normal sharpening on the cutters atleast once maybe twice, can't recall exactly, and was still getting the dust, that's why I thought I would ask if it was possible to get the dust with the rakers (somehow??) being too low or not at the correct leading angle. But maybe my cutters still were bad.  Thanks for the help.
Husky 562xp and 435; Scag 61" Hydro; '05 Kawasaki KVF 700;  Echo PB 750H & SRM-22; 2x Fiskars X27; PTR 91 GI, Stag Model 1,  M&P9

thecfarm

I get another file when it feels like it not sharping anymore. Kinda would feel like just taking a wooden dowel and using that.  Well not that bad.  ;D  You need to remember how a new files feels,than when it starts to get worn,than you will know. I have no idea how many times I use a file,10 sharpenings? I never kept track. I buy a dozen files at a time and that will last me quite a while,a year???
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

LeeB

A couple of things to think about. The file onl;y cuts on the push stroke. Don't put any pressure on it on the pull strokw as this will dull the file. To check on your sharpening, get a good light and look at the leading edge. a sharp edge won't reflect light. Compare it to a new chain to get a good idea of what it should look like.
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

cstoney04

Quote from: LeeB on September 10, 2014, 05:47:10 AM
To check on your sharpening, get a good light and look at the leading edge. a sharp edge won't reflect light. Compare it to a new chain to get a good idea of what it should look like.

Thanks
Husky 562xp and 435; Scag 61" Hydro; '05 Kawasaki KVF 700;  Echo PB 750H & SRM-22; 2x Fiskars X27; PTR 91 GI, Stag Model 1,  M&P9

CTYank

I use a Granberg "File-N-Joint" file guide for 99+% of my chain sharpening. One trick a bud showed me for height setting is to do it by Braille. Use a finger-tip to sense when the file is sitting about 1/5 of its diameter above the cutters.

When is a cutter sharp? Easy- when a finger-tip says so.

Since you're using a Granberg guide for sharpening, just get a 6" flat file to pop in there, and do the depth gauges very precisely. "Eye-crometer" just won't do there.

Files are cheap. Granberg guide can get lots of sharpening out of a file, but when it's not cutting it, toss it. Re-cutting filings is not good for a file, either. After doing each tooth, a quick finger-swipe of the file will wipe off all the filings.

I've found that with that guide, I end up filing back the cutters so slowly that the depth gauges wear at such a rate that they almost never need filing. Except for the dog-ear depth gauges on "vanguard" chains, that is.

Fat chips!
'72 blue Homelite 150
Echo 315, SRM-200DA
Poulan 2400, PP5020, PP4218
RedMax GZ4000, "Mac" 35 cc, Dolmar PS-6100
Husqy 576XP-AT
Tanaka 260 PF Polesaw, TBC-270PFD, ECS-3351B
Mix of mauls
Morso 7110

SawTroll

Quote from: CTYank on September 10, 2014, 03:52:03 PM


Files are cheap. Granberg guide can get lots of sharpening out of a file, but when it's not cutting it, toss it. Re-cutting filings is not good for a file, either. After doing each tooth, a quick finger-swipe of the file will wipe off all the filings.


That is not good enough imo - I knock off the worst, and then use an old tooth-brush.  ;)
Information collector.

Brandon1986

Its not your fault anti kickback chains are ruined from the factory  ;D :D

CTYank

Quote from: Jim_Rogers on September 08, 2014, 09:34:35 AM
I use a raker depth gauge. You put it over two teeth and file off what sticks up. Seems to keep my rakers at the right distance when they need touching up. As mentioned only after several sharpenings.
The gauge will tell you if you need to file any off. slide a file over it and if it cuts raker then file them all. if it doesn't then they don't need any work.

Jim Rogers

OP said he used Granberg guide for the cutters, but not for the depth gauges. Once he gets the hang of doing the cutters well with it, and works out how to use a flat file in it for setting the depth gauges, he'll be dangerous. In a good way.  8)

Not rocket surgery there, but little things mean a lot.
'72 blue Homelite 150
Echo 315, SRM-200DA
Poulan 2400, PP5020, PP4218
RedMax GZ4000, "Mac" 35 cc, Dolmar PS-6100
Husqy 576XP-AT
Tanaka 260 PF Polesaw, TBC-270PFD, ECS-3351B
Mix of mauls
Morso 7110

CTYank

Quote from: SawTroll on September 11, 2014, 09:01:52 AM
Quote from: CTYank on September 10, 2014, 03:52:03 PM


Files are cheap. Granberg guide can get lots of sharpening out of a file, but when it's not cutting it, toss it. Re-cutting filings is not good for a file, either. After doing each tooth, a quick finger-swipe of the file will wipe off all the filings.


That is not good enough imo - I knock off the worst, and then use an old tooth-brush.  ;)

You're kidding, right? IMO, it's very, very good. As evidenced by file longevity- my files last for too many sharpenings to count. You can overthink things, or obsess.

No blast of compressed air after each tooth? No surgical scrub?  ::)
'72 blue Homelite 150
Echo 315, SRM-200DA
Poulan 2400, PP5020, PP4218
RedMax GZ4000, "Mac" 35 cc, Dolmar PS-6100
Husqy 576XP-AT
Tanaka 260 PF Polesaw, TBC-270PFD, ECS-3351B
Mix of mauls
Morso 7110

HolmenTree

Good thread here.
I'm not trying to put a bee in anyone's bonnet here but rubbing the file with your finger is not a good idea for file longevity either. The acids in a person's sweat and body oils can harm a file as I've learned from a few veteran machinists over the years.
I just tap the end of the file on the side of the bar after each cutter and that's sufficient enough. The file does leave little pecker marks in the bars paint but that doesn't bother me, only shows how often I touch up my chain :D
Some of my bars have unpainted noses which are nice to tap on. ;)
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Al_Smith

In addition to that it's not a good idea to wipe the file with a finger  then pick your nose .Rather abrasive so to speak .

Good thread though, many aspects concerning the subject of filing a chain .From file and joints to tooth brushes ,compressed air .No mention yet of an ultrasonic cleaner though . ???

SawTroll

Quote from: CTYank on September 30, 2014, 01:26:14 AM

You're kidding, right? IMO, it's very, very good. As evidenced by file longevity- my files last for too many sharpenings to count. You can overthink things, or obsess.

No blast of compressed air after each tooth? No surgical scrub?  ::)

NO, I was not kidding.
Information collector.

Al_Smith

Now comes the big question .Exactly what does the Yank do with his finger and what does Niko do with his tooth brush after the filing is done ? Inquiring minds want to know . ;D

Maine logger88

I just tap the tip of the file on the side of the bar like Holman said and every once in awhile I will rub it on my shirt sleeve too get a little more off then when it gets dull I chuck it in the scrap bucket and put a new one on.
79 TJ 225 81 JD 540B Husky and Jonsered saws

husky2100

Try using a bigger file like a 1/4 inch round file

OntarioAl

Folks
If the saw is only making fine and not grabbing (with the excessive clearance).
Then your cutting angles are out of whack, Saw chains are engineered to get optimum performance when they are filed according to the manufactures specs for the specific style\model of chain.
http://www.oregonproducts.com/pdfs/FilingAngles.pdf
The link shows the filing angles for Oregon chains.
Hope this  helps
Al
Al Raman

John Mc

Quote from: OntarioAl on October 01, 2014, 10:03:11 PM
... Saw chains are engineered to get optimum performance when they are filed according to the manufactures specs for the specific style\model of chain.
http://www.oregonproducts.com/pdfs/FilingAngles.pdf
The link shows the filing angles for Oregon chains.

Good article, and the chain does cut well when sharpened to those specs.

Unfortunately, Oregon chains new out of the box don't seem to have Oregon's specified angles on them these days. In particular, the 73 LPX and LGX I've been buying comes with WAY too much hook on the tooth -- they are no where near the 60˚ shown for angle C in the diagram. (If it were hand-filed, I'd say that someone dropped their file down too low.)  It makes for an aggressive chain right out of the box, but with that narrow beak on the point, it doesn't stay sharp long. It also is very grabby when bore cutting.  It's a pain in the neck until I've refiled it.

I've checked the depth gauge settings on a couple of new chains, and found some chains shallower than the specified .025" as well.  I don't know if they do this to help counter the aggressiveness of the extra hook noted above, or what.

(Pet peeve of mine with Oregon. I do like their chains, I just wish they'd go back to the way they used to sharpen them.)
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

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