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Author Topic: hydrogen to run engines  (Read 5446 times)

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Offline Al_Smith

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Re: hydrogen to run engines
« Reply #40 on: October 19, 2014, 09:26:02 pm »

And then there is the "Ka Boom" problem.  ::)

Hmm.  Wasn't that part of the issue with the Hindenburg?
I think the Hindenberg pretty much put the stoppers in hydrogen for fuel about like three mile island did for nuclear  power .The kaboob factor did it .

Offline Alligator

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Re: hydrogen to run engines
« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2014, 10:50:59 pm »
I don't think the "Hindenberg" or "Ka Boom" factor are effecting the use of hydrogen in this day and age. We have so many, as explosive or more explosive materials or other more deadly materials around us, it would terrify you to know.  The Hindenberg was not using it as fuel nor containing as we contain our explosive fuels. It was more or less contained in a huge pillow case. (over simplification) None the less not well protected against leaks.

Feasibility is hydrogen's problem. With the raw resource being free, the energy to separate the 2 hydrogen atoms from the one oxygen atom is equal to or less than the amount of energy produced. Petroleum doesn't come out of the ground as gasoline, it has to be separated. Petroleum and water are both natural resources. A BTU of gasoline today cost $0.00002632 give or take 100 or so millionth of a cent. The person who can get the cost of a BTU of hydrogen one hundred thousandth of a cent of that will become a very rich person. 8) 8) This is not a perpetual motion machine, the fuel is locked it water, and no one has figured a way to extract mass quantities at a rate per BTU anywhere close to gasoline price above. That number is an inflated number because it includes taxes.
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Offline Brucer

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Re: hydrogen to run engines
« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2014, 01:11:21 am »
... the energy to separate the 2 hydrogen atoms from the one oxygen atom is equal to or less than the amount of energy produced...

It cannot be less than the amount of energy produced. You can only get back from combustion what you used to separate the atoms in the first place. First law of thermodynamics.
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Offline Gary_C

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Re: hydrogen to run engines
« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2014, 11:29:13 am »

It cannot be less than the amount of energy produced. You can only get back from combustion what you used to separate the atoms in the first place. First law of thermodynamics.

The first law is only true for a closed system. It does not say you cannot allow energy to escape in a process.
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Offline Ianab

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Re: hydrogen to run engines
« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2014, 03:51:49 pm »
Quote
The first law is only true for a closed system. It does not say you cannot allow energy to escape in a process.

True, but if you allow energy to escape from said closed system, it must eventually "run down". If energy is escaping from your system, then you need to be adding more in some way. Falling water to turn your generator, sunshine on your solar panel, fuel added to the gas tank etc.
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Offline Brucer

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Re: hydrogen to run engines
« Reply #45 on: October 22, 2014, 12:08:36 am »
We agree, Gary. In this case the suggestion (if I understood it correctly) was that the system would have a net gain in energy. Hence my reference to the first law.
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Offline maple flats

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Re: hydrogen to run engines
« Reply #46 on: February 04, 2015, 12:04:44 pm »
I had an uncle who was (he died a few yrs. ago at age 93) a Dr. of geophysics. He told me that he was certain that in the next half century, lots of energy would be made from electrolysis of water. He never lost his faculties even at 93. He envisioned wave power generators anchored offshore, electrolyzing water and then piping the hydrogen onshore where it would fire electric turbines.
He was a mental giant in my view, in everything he ever did, as well as those who worked with him (in 1952 Van had taken enough courses in math, physics, geology, and chemistry to have graduated with a major in any of the above. [taken from http://virtualmuseum.seg.org/bio_robert_van_nostrand.html) I hope he was right, waves are a free energy source and a big system run that way seems far safer than nuclear when there are people out there who consider it an honor to destroy another people.
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Offline HuckFin

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Re: hydrogen to run engines
« Reply #47 on: February 05, 2015, 01:39:42 pm »
I can make hydrogen for next to nothing. I have a micro/hydroelectric system that runs 24/7 charging 8 L16 batteries. When the batteries reach full charge the excess voltage is used to power a heater, (to keep the alternator from over revving) so instead of using the heater for a governor, I could make hydrogen instead but don't feel that adventurous.

Offline Bill

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Re: hydrogen to run engines
« Reply #48 on: February 09, 2015, 06:20:56 pm »
fwiw - I recall an article some time back about some researchers that claimed to have found a simple organism ( from a swamp or volcano or ??? ) that took in - oops I forget - but one of the byproducts was hydrogen . Now lest anyone jump to conclusions - it was some time ago - after those folks that claimed that they'd solved " cold fusion " but some time back none the less . Now I'm not saying it was a hoax or not - just that its failed to make  more recent news .

Bottom line - imho - its more expensive to make hydrogen than to just use the fuel you would have used to make hydrogen .

Offline Gary_C

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Re: hydrogen to run engines
« Reply #49 on: April 09, 2015, 03:41:23 am »
The search for a way to produce hydrogen economically is not over. 

Hydrogen fuel breakthrough could pave the way for clean cars

This is research done by scientists at Virginia Tech, peer reviewed, and published in the proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. The only thing left to do is scale the process up to prove it is feasible on a large scale. But that is always easier said than done.

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Offline Ianab

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Re: hydrogen to run engines
« Reply #50 on: April 09, 2015, 04:35:51 am »
May be practical.  But will it be better to turn the organic material into methane or methanol, which are also practical fuels, and already pretty well proven in auto use.

Sure Hydrogen burns cleaner, and your car has no carbon emissions. But the by-product of their reaction is CO2, so the CO2 emissions is the same, just in another place.

But I agree that if you want hydrogen, that would be a good way to produce it.
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Re: hydrogen to run engines
« Reply #51 on: February 18, 2016, 07:22:52 pm »
I made my own Hydrogen fuel cells It was fun but sure not worth it.
You use as much energy making the fuel as you get out of it.
I made a Hydrogen torch. Now that was hard to do with out blowing my self up.
And i did all this in my basment. But it was all fun...
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Offline Al_Smith

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Re: hydrogen to run engines
« Reply #52 on: February 22, 2016, 10:37:39 am »
One basic law of physics regarding matter is it is neither made or destroyed only that its form is changed .

Take for example the U-boats of the US Navy I once rode .We took sea water and separated the elements reaping the oxegon and burned off the hydrogen and carbon monoxide which was returned to the sea .We breathed the O2 and gave off Co2 which was also returned to the sea .Nothing changed in the broad spectrum of things .It wasn't like we lowered the oceans of the world either .However in all of this it took a form of energy to accomplish. Like they say there is no free wood pile .

Offline ozarkgem

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Re: hydrogen to run engines
« Reply #53 on: May 16, 2016, 08:45:13 pm »
I have a friend that works at a Wal Mart distribution center and some of the forklifts have hydrogen fuel cells instead of batteries. I ask him to get me the info off the fuel cell so I could research it. He said they have  a filling station for the fuel cells. I found that quite interesting .
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Offline Ianab

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Re: hydrogen to run engines
« Reply #54 on: May 16, 2016, 11:03:15 pm »
I can see how it would be practical for a forklift being used inside. They wont want CO from a propane engine poisoning people, a tank of hydrogen can store a lot more energy than a battery, and can be refueled relatively normally (in minutes), as opposed to a battery that needs hours to recharge.
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Offline starmac

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Re: hydrogen to run engines
« Reply #55 on: May 17, 2016, 12:28:03 am »
I would like to see more info on these hydrogen run forklifts, every warehouse I have ever been in in the last 30 years or so used propane forklifts or electric, I have never heard od any hydrogen powered ones at all.
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Offline ozarkgem

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Re: hydrogen to run engines
« Reply #56 on: May 17, 2016, 07:10:12 am »
I would like to see more info on these hydrogen run forklifts, every warehouse I have ever been in in the last 30 years or so used propane forklifts or electric, I have never heard od any hydrogen powered ones at all.
[/quote
Me either. that is why I asked him to get me the info on it. All I have ever seen were battery powered. I also saw a Wal Mart truck with a sign saying it was powered by Compressed Natural gas.
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Offline plantman

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Re: hydrogen to run engines
« Reply #57 on: March 17, 2017, 04:57:03 pm »
Ianab stated correctly that it takes more power to create the hydrogen than you get from burning the hydrogen. Forget it, and keep buying gasoline like the rest of us.