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Slabbing Maple...how thick? (hypothetical)

Started by JohnM, August 17, 2014, 10:35:24 AM

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JohnM

I had an email exchange with a potential customer who wanted a 4' dia 10' long maple slabbed (I assume hard maple but not sure).  Turns out his friend has decided to turn it into firewood  :( but the guy still wanted to know what it 'would have' cost him.  I can give him a rough estimate but my question is about the dimensions he wanted.  In the email he says, "I think I would like 5/4 or 8/4 rough sawn slabs.  After that, I can work with it."  I've only slabbed red oak to date and the thinnest I milled some of that was 6/4 with a width of maybe 25-28".  So my question is, would it 'work' to mill a slab 5/4 thick and 48" wide?  Seems like it would want to move (cup) a lot.  More so if it's soft maple?

Thanks for any thoughts/input. :)
Lucas 830 w/ slabber; Kubota L3710; Wallenstein logging winch; Split-fire splitter; Stihl 036; Jonsered 2150

logboy

Generally speaking, the wider the slab the thicker I go. That gives you wiggle room to clean up the cupping. My max is usually 3", unless it has bad ring shake and needs to be thicker. At 4' wide I'd slab it at 3". Just my two cents. If he's paying cash by the hour, then offer your advice but cut it at whatever he wants. If it warps or cups and is ruined then its on him.
I like Lucas Mills and big wood.  www.logboy.com

logboy

If they brought the log to me, he'd probably be looking at anywhere from $100-200 depending on setup time, how green/dry or dirty the log is, metal, etc.
I like Lucas Mills and big wood.  www.logboy.com

scsmith42

For a 4' slab I would recommend between 3" - 3-1/2" green and charge a buck a board foot.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

logboy

Quote from: scsmith42 on August 17, 2014, 09:25:19 PM
For a 4' slab I would recommend between 3" - 3-1/2" green and charge a buck a board foot.

A log that size has (depending on taper) roughly 1,000 board feet in it. Would you really charge $1,000 to cut his log?
I like Lucas Mills and big wood.  www.logboy.com

JohnM

Thanks, LB, the 5/4 didn't sound like a good idea at all.  Since it's going to be turned into firewood it doesn't really matter :(, but it's good to know.  My estimate to him came to around $400-$500 including my travel (150 miles one way), don't know if he would have balked at that or not. :-\
Lucas 830 w/ slabber; Kubota L3710; Wallenstein logging winch; Split-fire splitter; Stihl 036; Jonsered 2150

scsmith42

Quote from: logboy on August 17, 2014, 09:41:51 PM
Quote from: scsmith42 on August 17, 2014, 09:25:19 PM
For a 4' slab I would recommend between 3" - 3-1/2" green and charge a buck a board foot.

A log that size has (depending on taper) roughly 1,000 board feet in it. Would you really charge $1,000 to cut his log?

Absolutely.

For starters, the outer few inches will not be usable, so the net will probably be around 700 board feet or so. 

Second, there will be several hours spent talking with the customer in advance - probably a trip to look at the log and discuss options re milling, educate them about how best to mill it, etc. 

Third, you will have the costs associated with either setting up and milling the log at your stationary facility, or mobilization costs associated with transporting your equipment to the log.

Wear and tear on the mill, ROI, depreciation, consumable costs for the chain, various OpEx costs, etc all factor in.

At the end of the day you have to decide if you want to do this as a hobby and pay yourself a little over minimum wage, or run it as a business factoring in all of the ancillary costs associated with it.  You have to make enough on the "good jobs" to sustain you through the "bad jobs".  Bad jobs are those that you lose your tail on due to factors beyond your control, such as weather, site access problems, equipment problems, etc.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

logboy

QuoteFor starters, the outer few inches will not be usable, so the net will probably be around 700 board feet or so. 

This doesnt make sense. If he was requesting the log be sawn into lumber, then yes. But he was requesting that the log be slabbed. So I'm not following you on the outer few inches not being usable. Do you slab logs for people but only charge them for part of what you cut? How do you charge when you slab for people?

Would you charge the customer for driving 300 miles and giving them hours of your time to talk about sawing just one log?

If I charged $1 a bdft to slab I'd have no customers because they could pay off their own Lucas Slabber with just 10 of those logs.  I can slab a log that size in 2-3 hours. If I charged $1k to mill the log, that could mean $500 an hour plus setup and travel costs. I dont know anyone who would ever pay that. They would just go to someone else.
I like Lucas Mills and big wood.  www.logboy.com

woodweasel


Magicman

The board thickness in ¼" increments.  Such as 5/4=1¼", 8/4=2", etc.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Jim_Rogers

Quote from: logboy on August 18, 2014, 04:39:08 PM
Would you charge the customer for driving 300 miles and giving them hours of your time to talk about sawing just one log?

If I had to drive 150 miles one way to look at a log and talk about sawing it up, I for sure would let the customer know that this site visit would not be free. I'd ask for my time.
I get $1 a boardfoot for sawing up any lumber that is wider than 24" regardless of how thick it is. That is the rate in my area or at least at my mill.

The closest guy to me that I know of, that sells wide slabs of wood get $7 a bdft for pine, and even more for hardwoods. Paying a $1 to get it sawn up would be within reason around here.
Your rates and prices have to be what will work for you in your area.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Ludo

I agree with the higher prices.  I look at what the finished product would cost and relay that to the customer first.  I also think about the wear and tear on my body.  Moving around 3" slabs of maple is brutal, my hands and arms are numb at night- I take that into consideration.  I can charge by the day or by the tree, but I have a minimum fee which is 1/2 of the full day price.  Any metal hit adds the price of a blade. I am fortunate enough to have enough business to keep me happy, if you are cash strapped then that changes everything. Just make sure that you are not giving it away, then the milling which we all love becomes just a job. It's easy to do things you love but it's got to be worth it in the end.  My "watershed" moment came when I found out that someone I milled for (cheap-cheap) was getting almost a thousand dollars a linear foot for tables they made.  I was barely making $10 and hour after costs.  I felt used and cheap!!  :'(  No more  ;D

logboy

Here are some questions.

You can buy a brand new Lucas Slabber for only $10k. If I need to charge $1 a bdft to cover my overhead, why arent you charging $4 a bdft to cover the overhead on your $40k bandmill?

A fair amount of my business is chunking up large logs so they will fit on a bandmill to saw into lumber. Do you think it would be fair to charge 500 to make 3 quick cuts in a large log so a guy with an LT40 can charge him 150 to saw the entire thing into dimensional lumber?

Some have said I should charge more because some guys make an end product thats really expensive. So here are a couple questions. You have two customers, one building a 100k house, another building a 500k house. Do you charge the one guy five times as much because he's building a house that costs five times as much? Do you charge your customers more money to saw walnut into lumber vs oak because theyre going to sell it for more money?

You have a pile of large logs totalling 10k bdft you want slabbed. With a price quote of $10k, do you
A. Pay $10k to have them slabbed
B. Buy your own brand new slabber, slab them, then sell the slabber used and save yourself $8k.

If you try and justify A by saying you need someone with experience, let me say right now that slabbing is a heck of a lot easier than sawing lumber. With the support you get from Lucas, anyone can do it. The learning curve is not steep.

Its the end of the day so its time to tally up how many bdft we cut. The owner wants to write a check and go home, so you need to hurry up. So go ahead and scale up the 100 slabs we cut.  Make sure your math is exact, we dont want to over/under charge the customer. Start with these two slabs then move onto the other 98 slabs that are all different sizes. You only have 30 minutes.





Last question. If you have equipment that can easily move a 3,000 pound log, why are you moving around 400 pound slabs by hand?
I like Lucas Mills and big wood.  www.logboy.com

JohnM

 :D  Remember guys, this is hypothetical, the log in question will be firewood soon.  On second thought, 1:10 odds it sits there for the next 3-5 yrs but I digress. ::)  Just a side note, there was NOT going to be a site visit.  Would have trusted the customer who said it's on open level ground...and asked for pictures! ;)

Ludo, Jim and Scott if you can get that kind of money where you're at more power to you, truly not trying to be snide, but I do not believe* I would get much work up here charging that much.  (*as I'm just starting out I have no idea how much of a market there is for this up here, I'm sure my pricing will change over time)  The amount of money I need to make would be shockingly small for what some here consider 'a living', but like in Ludo's example, as long as I don't feel 'used/cheated' I'm good.

Speaking of you, Ludo, just looked up where Warwick is.  My brother is on Long Island and most of my in-laws are in NJ, we usually get down that way once or twice a year, so you may have a visitor from Maine show up in your yard some day. ;) ;D  Would love to see your operation. :)
Lucas 830 w/ slabber; Kubota L3710; Wallenstein logging winch; Split-fire splitter; Stihl 036; Jonsered 2150

scsmith42

Quote from: logboy on August 19, 2014, 08:42:15 PM
Here are some questions.

You can buy a brand new Lucas Slabber for only $10k. If I need to charge $1 a bdft to cover my overhead, why arent you charging $4 a bdft to cover the overhead on your $40k bandmill?

A fair amount of my business is chunking up large logs so they will fit on a bandmill to saw into lumber. Do you think it would be fair to charge 500 to make 3 quick cuts in a large log so a guy with an LT40 can charge him 150 to saw the entire thing into dimensional lumber?

Some have said I should charge more because some guys make an end product thats really expensive. So here are a couple questions. You have two customers, one building a 100k house, another building a 500k house. Do you charge the one guy five times as much because he's building a house that costs five times as much? Do you charge your customers more money to saw walnut into lumber vs oak because theyre going to sell it for more money?

You have a pile of large logs totalling 10k bdft you want slabbed. With a price quote of $10k, do you
A. Pay $10k to have them slabbed
B. Buy your own brand new slabber, slab them, then sell the slabber used and save yourself $8k.

If you try and justify A by saying you need someone with experience, let me say right now that slabbing is a heck of a lot easier than sawing lumber. With the support you get from Lucas, anyone can do it. The learning curve is not steep.

Its the end of the day so its time to tally up how many bdft we cut. The owner wants to write a check and go home, so you need to hurry up. So go ahead and scale up the 100 slabs we cut.  Make sure your math is exact, we dont want to over/under charge the customer. Start with these two slabs then move onto the other 98 slabs that are all different sizes. You only have 30 minutes.





Last question. If you have equipment that can easily move a 3,000 pound log, why are you moving around 400 pound slabs by hand?

Lots of great questions in your post, I will try to address each one of them.  Also, a number of months back we had a detailed discussion regarding the business costs of slabbing in a post on the Full Membership board.  Here is a link to that post:

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,74203.msg1124003.html#msg1124003


"You can buy a brand new Lucas Slabber for only $10k. If I need to charge $1 a bdft to cover my overhead, why arent you charging $4 a bdft to cover the overhead on your $40k bandmill?"


You used the term "overhead"; but overhead is not necessarily directly proportionate to the cost of your equipment - it's basically your fixed costs such as rent, advertising, insurance, etc.  The cost of the mill does not make much difference in your overhead unless you are renting it.  Although I look at overhead, I am more interested in EBITDA and then factoring in the EBITDA related items - which is where the sawmill purchase costs would be an influence.

Typically business costs are determined based upon both capitol expenses as well as operating expenses (CapEx and OpEx).  Your 10K investment in the slabber is Capex; usually you want to factor in two costs related to the purchase.  First, depreciation (if you depreciated over 5 years on the straight line method that would equal 2K per year.  Or you can determine a depreciation cost per hour).  Second is ROI, or Return on Investment.  If you invested the 10K that you used to purchase the slabber, if you made a 10% return on your investment that would equal 1K per year.  So that should also be figured into your costs. 

From an OpEx perspective, you have things such as fuel, chain sharpening, chain wear (replacement costs), transportation (mobilization and demobilization, aka mobe/demobe) miller labor and offbearer labor (if required).

If you use support equipment, such as loaders, trucks / trailers, etc, you should also factor in depreciation, ROI, as well as OpEx associated with said equipment.

In a different section, you asked the question about charging the customer for making a 300 mile trip to look at their log and advise them.   Your time and expense in making that trip is a cost of doing business.  Do you want to recover and be compensated for your business costs or not?    If yes, then you have to either factor these costs into your milling prices or bill them separately.

"A fair amount of my business is chunking up large logs so they will fit on a bandmill to saw into lumber. Do you think it would be fair to charge 500 to make 3 quick cuts in a large log so a guy with an LT40 can charge him 150 to saw the entire thing into dimensional lumber?"

One of my attorneys charges over $500.00 per hour for consultation.  It's not a question of "fair", it's a question of "Value".  There are times that I am willing to shell out the $500 bucks for his advice.  There are other times that I choose to use a different attorney at a vastly lower rate.  Most of the times that I've invested the $500.00 per hour netted me far more in terms of value, so in that instance it was fair.

However, we're not comparing apples to oranges.  My $1.00 per bd ft charge is for slabbing.  Quartering a log or non standard cuts are charged at an hourly rate that allows me cover my CapEx, Opex and profit.

"Some have said I should charge more because some guys make an end product thats really expensive. So here are a couple questions. You have two customers, one building a 100k house, another building a 500k house. Do you charge the one guy five times as much because he's building a house that costs five times as much? Do you charge your customers more money to saw walnut into lumber vs oak because theyre going to sell it for more money? "

No - I typically charge the same, with some exceptions.  Active Duty Military received a hefty discount, as does active duty law enforcement.  What I charge is typically based upon what it costs me to provide the specific service requested, along with the profit opportunity.  I am not interested in being a "not for profit" business, however when I choose to donate or discount my services to someone, the profit that I make on the other customers is what allows me to do so.

"You have a pile of large logs totalling 10k bdft you want slabbed. With a price quote of $10k, do you
A. Pay $10k to have them slabbed
B. Buy your own brand new slabber, slab them, then sell the slabber used and save yourself $8k.

If you try and justify A by saying you need someone with experience, let me say right now that slabbing is a heck of a lot easier than sawing lumber. With the support you get from Lucas, anyone can do it. The learning curve is not steep."

Are you running a business, or are you pursuing your hobby?  Based upon your questions and answers thus far my sense is that you are doing this as a hobby.  To address your question specifically, if I have a large pile of logs totally 10K bd ft the first thing that I'm going to ask myself as a business person is what will be my ROI?  What will be my costs?  What are my other ROI opportunities?  In some instances, I may hire someone with a slabber to come in and slab them for me so that I can keep my employees busy on other tasks that create revenue.  If I'm not very busy, then I will look to mill them instead with my own crew.  If I did not already own a slabber, then the same calculations would apply - is it worth the investment to me in terms of $, training time, learning curve, etc to do them in house, versus hiring it done.  If I invest in the equipment, what are the future revenue opportunities for it?  Do I need to make the investment from a tax perspective (ie need the write-off to offset other business gains), etc. 

If I'm looking at the logs as a hobbyist with a strong business background, then I would seriously consider hiring someone such as you to come in and slab them for me at a low cost, dry them and sell some of them to recover what I paid you in labor, and then keep the rest for myself - in essence I end up with free slabs.

Otherwise I may consider buying the slabber, milling them and then reselling the slabber and keeping the slabs.  It all depends upon your perspective.

There is more that goes into milling than just pushing a sawmill.  Understanding how to mill for the best figure and best quality, as well as understanding how wood dries and milling to achieve the highest quality result requires an investment on the millers part into educating themselves.  If we're willing to pay our Dr.'s, accountant's, lawyers, etc based upon the amount of education that they have, why shouldn't a sawyer who takes the time to continually increase his/her education also be compensated based upon their time and educational investment?

Also, I do not find slabbing to be physically easier than milling with the hydraulic Baker bandmill (Tom).  My yield per hour is much greater on the bandmill, and my physical exertions much less as compared with slabbing. 

"Last question. If you have equipment that can easily move a 3,000 pound log, why are you moving around 400 pound slabs by hand?"

Actually, I have equipment available that can move a 50,000 lb log...  The question regarding moving by hand versus equipment is based upon what is fastest and easiest.  Typically when we slab we have a forklift positioned next to the slabber, and we slide the slabs off of the log and onto the forks (or pile of slabs that are accumulating onto the forks).  I have not found a way to use equipment to pick the slabs up off of the log w/o risking damage to the sides of the slab where they would be clamped into some type of grapple.  Plus, it's faster to simply use physical exertion to slide the slab over onto the forks, but it still takes time and multiple people if it's a large slab.  Some of the slabs that we mill weigh well over 1000 lbs, and that requires multiple people in order to slide them.

Good discussion, I hope that it's educational and beneficial for our members.

Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

logboy

QuoteBased upon your questions and answers thus far my sense is that you are doing this as a hobby.

You are not even remotely close. But thanks for passing judgement.
I like Lucas Mills and big wood.  www.logboy.com

JohnM

Quote from: scsmith42 on August 20, 2014, 07:38:38 AM
Good discussion, I hope that it's educational and beneficial for our members.
+1 A bit off topic but at least no one brought up the 'g' word.  ;) ;D  Some of what you say, Scott, is above my pay grade (EBITDA? ??? :P) but an interesting discussion none the less.

LB, those of us that know you, know what you do and how well you do it.  It ain't no thang. :)
Lucas 830 w/ slabber; Kubota L3710; Wallenstein logging winch; Split-fire splitter; Stihl 036; Jonsered 2150

scsmith42

Quote from: logboy on August 20, 2014, 04:10:38 PM
QuoteBased upon your questions and answers thus far my sense is that you are doing this as a hobby.

You are not even remotely close. But thanks for passing judgement.

My apologies - it was not my intent to belittle or offend.  Your quote of .10 - .20 per board foot for slabbing led me to believe that you did not incur the typical costs associated with a business that had to be factored into your pricing, hence my apparent incorrect conclusion.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

logboy

scsmith42, for you to characterize what I do as a "hobby, you apparently possess all the necessary information about my slabber expenses. So for the sake of discussion and to back up your assertion that what I do is nothing more than a hobby, please provide the following information about my mill. Not your slabber, but my Lucas slabber.

How much gas does my slabber consume in an 8 hour day?
How much bar oil does my mill consume in an 8 hour day?
How long does it take me to swap chains?
How long does it take me to sharpen a chain?
How many times can I sharpen a chain before it's worn out?
How many inches of oak can I slab in one minute?
How many slabs can I cut before I have to swap chains?

Like I said, since you went so far as to characterize what I do as a mere hobby, you apparently possess the information. So please, for the sake of discussion, provide the above information. Not about your slabber, but my Lucas slabber.




I like Lucas Mills and big wood.  www.logboy.com

scsmith42

Quote from: JohnM on August 20, 2014, 07:50:05 PM
Quote from: scsmith42 on August 20, 2014, 07:38:38 AM
Good discussion, I hope that it's educational and beneficial for our members.
+1 A bit off topic but at least no one brought up the 'g' word.  ;) ;D  Some of what you say, Scott, is above my pay grade (EBITDA? ??? :P) but an interesting discussion none the less.


John, EBITDA stands for Earnings before Interest, Taxes, Depreciation and Amortization.

We used to have a highly respected contributor to the Forum named the Arkansawyer.  Arky was both a good 'ol boy as well as a degreed engineer, and one of the most innovative and knowledgeable sawyers that I have ever known of.  He worked 70 - 90 hours every week, milled a lot of lumber, and was quite vocal about how he could not understand why people would charge so much for milling, etc.  Unfortunately, Arky went out of business a few years ago when his bank called his loan and he was not generating enough EBITDA to be able to get another bank to loan him the operating funds needed to keep his business going.  One of the most talented, knowledgeable and hardest working sawyers that I know went belly up and his employees lost their jobs - basically because he did not charge enough for his labor and product. 

Arky's problem was not having adequate business volume or supply of logs - it was not generating enough revenue to keep his doors open and service his debt.  If you can't service your debt because you don't have the business coming in - it's most likely a marketing or broader scale economic cause.  It's something else when you're running wide open yet not generating enough cash flow to pay the bills.

We lost a lot of milling creativity and knowledge when we lost Arky from the Forum.  I think of the lessons that I learned from him often when I reflect on pricing.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

scsmith42

Quote from: logboy on August 20, 2014, 09:01:41 PM
scsmith42, for you to characterize what I do as a "hobby, you apparently possess all the necessary information about my slabber expenses. So for the sake of discussion and to back up your assertion that what I do is nothing more than a hobby, please provide the following information about my mill. Not your slabber, but my Lucas slabber.

How much gas does my slabber consume in an 8 hour day?
How much bar oil does my mill consume in an 8 hour day?
How long does it take me to swap chains?
How long does it take me to sharpen a chain?
How many times can I sharpen a chain before it's worn out?
How many inches of oak can I slab in one minute?
How many slabs can I cut before I have to swap chains?

Like I said, since you went so far as to characterize what I do as a mere hobby, you apparently possess the information. So please, for the sake of discussion, provide the above information. Not about your slabber, but my Lucas slabber.

LB - I don't see anything to be gained from continuing this discussion.  I have obviously touched a nerve with my comments, and have also already apologized as it was not my intent to upset or belittle you.

Let's move on and perhaps I can learn better business practices from you.

Best of success to you,

Scott
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

logboy

Come on now Scott. You don't get to jump in and classify what I do as a hobby and then not even back it up with some basic information about how you arrived at that conclusion. I asked you very simple questions, questions one would need answered in order to make such an assertion. They are not hard questions. If you like, you can tell me what your specs are on your slabber.
I like Lucas Mills and big wood.  www.logboy.com

Dave Shepard

Quote from: scsmith42 on August 20, 2014, 07:38:38 AM
Quote from: logboy on August 19, 2014, 08:42:15 PM
Here are some questions.

You can buy a brand new Lucas Slabber for only $10k. If I need to charge $1 a bdft to cover my overhead, why arent you charging $4 a bdft to cover the overhead on your $40k bandmill?

A fair amount of my business is chunking up large logs so they will fit on a bandmill to saw into lumber. Do you think it would be fair to charge 500 to make 3 quick cuts in a large log so a guy with an LT40 can charge him 150 to saw the entire thing into dimensional lumber?

Some have said I should charge more because some guys make an end product thats really expensive. So here are a couple questions. You have two customers, one building a 100k house, another building a 500k house. Do you charge the one guy five times as much because he's building a house that costs five times as much? Do you charge your customers more money to saw walnut into lumber vs oak because theyre going to sell it for more money?

You have a pile of large logs totalling 10k bdft you want slabbed. With a price quote of $10k, do you
A. Pay $10k to have them slabbed
B. Buy your own brand new slabber, slab them, then sell the slabber used and save yourself $8k.

If you try and justify A by saying you need someone with experience, let me say right now that slabbing is a heck of a lot easier than sawing lumber. With the support you get from Lucas, anyone can do it. The learning curve is not steep.

Its the end of the day so its time to tally up how many bdft we cut. The owner wants to write a check and go home, so you need to hurry up. So go ahead and scale up the 100 slabs we cut.  Make sure your math is exact, we dont want to over/under charge the customer. Start with these two slabs then move onto the other 98 slabs that are all different sizes. You only have 30 minutes.





Last question. If you have equipment that can easily move a 3,000 pound log, why are you moving around 400 pound slabs by hand?

Lots of great questions in your post, I will try to address each one of them.  Also, a number of months back we had a detailed discussion regarding the business costs of slabbing in a post on the Full Membership board.  Here is a link to that post:

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,74203.msg1124003.html#msg1124003


"You can buy a brand new Lucas Slabber for only $10k. If I need to charge $1 a bdft to cover my overhead, why arent you charging $4 a bdft to cover the overhead on your $40k bandmill?"


You used the term "overhead"; but overhead is not necessarily directly proportionate to the cost of your equipment - it's basically your fixed costs such as rent, advertising, insurance, etc.  The cost of the mill does not make much difference in your overhead unless you are renting it.  Although I look at overhead, I am more interested in EBITDA and then factoring in the EBITDA related items - which is where the sawmill purchase costs would be an influence.

Typically business costs are determined based upon both capitol expenses as well as operating expenses (CapEx and OpEx).  Your 10K investment in the slabber is Capex; usually you want to factor in two costs related to the purchase.  First, depreciation (if you depreciated over 5 years on the straight line method that would equal 2K per year.  Or you can determine a depreciation cost per hour).  Second is ROI, or Return on Investment.  If you invested the 10K that you used to purchase the slabber, if you made a 10% return on your investment that would equal 1K per year.  So that should also be figured into your costs. 

From an OpEx perspective, you have things such as fuel, chain sharpening, chain wear (replacement costs), transportation (mobilization and demobilization, aka mobe/demobe) miller labor and offbearer labor (if required).

If you use support equipment, such as loaders, trucks / trailers, etc, you should also factor in depreciation, ROI, as well as OpEx associated with said equipment.

In a different section, you asked the question about charging the customer for making a 300 mile trip to look at their log and advise them.   Your time and expense in making that trip is a cost of doing business.  Do you want to recover and be compensated for your business costs or not?    If yes, then you have to either factor these costs into your milling prices or bill them separately.

"A fair amount of my business is chunking up large logs so they will fit on a bandmill to saw into lumber. Do you think it would be fair to charge 500 to make 3 quick cuts in a large log so a guy with an LT40 can charge him 150 to saw the entire thing into dimensional lumber?"

One of my attorneys charges over $500.00 per hour for consultation.  It's not a question of "fair", it's a question of "Value".  There are times that I am willing to shell out the $500 bucks for his advice.  There are other times that I choose to use a different attorney at a vastly lower rate.  Most of the times that I've invested the $500.00 per hour netted me far more in terms of value, so in that instance it was fair.

However, we're not comparing apples to oranges.  My $1.00 per bd ft charge is for slabbing.  Quartering a log or non standard cuts are charged at an hourly rate that allows me cover my CapEx, Opex and profit.

"Some have said I should charge more because some guys make an end product thats really expensive. So here are a couple questions. You have two customers, one building a 100k house, another building a 500k house. Do you charge the one guy five times as much because he's building a house that costs five times as much? Do you charge your customers more money to saw walnut into lumber vs oak because theyre going to sell it for more money? "

No - I typically charge the same, with some exceptions.  Active Duty Military received a hefty discount, as does active duty law enforcement.  What I charge is typically based upon what it costs me to provide the specific service requested, along with the profit opportunity.  I am not interested in being a "not for profit" business, however when I choose to donate or discount my services to someone, the profit that I make on the other customers is what allows me to do so.

"You have a pile of large logs totalling 10k bdft you want slabbed. With a price quote of $10k, do you
A. Pay $10k to have them slabbed
B. Buy your own brand new slabber, slab them, then sell the slabber used and save yourself $8k.

If you try and justify A by saying you need someone with experience, let me say right now that slabbing is a heck of a lot easier than sawing lumber. With the support you get from Lucas, anyone can do it. The learning curve is not steep."

Are you running a business, or are you pursuing your hobby?  Based upon your questions and answers thus far my sense is that you are doing this as a hobby.  To address your question specifically, if I have a large pile of logs totally 10K bd ft the first thing that I'm going to ask myself as a business person is what will be my ROI?  What will be my costs?  What are my other ROI opportunities?  In some instances, I may hire someone with a slabber to come in and slab them for me so that I can keep my employees busy on other tasks that create revenue.  If I'm not very busy, then I will look to mill them instead with my own crew.  If I did not already own a slabber, then the same calculations would apply - is it worth the investment to me in terms of $, training time, learning curve, etc to do them in house, versus hiring it done.  If I invest in the equipment, what are the future revenue opportunities for it?  Do I need to make the investment from a tax perspective (ie need the write-off to offset other business gains), etc. 

If I'm looking at the logs as a hobbyist with a strong business background, then I would seriously consider hiring someone such as you to come in and slab them for me at a low cost, dry them and sell some of them to recover what I paid you in labor, and then keep the rest for myself - in essence I end up with free slabs.

Otherwise I may consider buying the slabber, milling them and then reselling the slabber and keeping the slabs.  It all depends upon your perspective.

There is more that goes into milling than just pushing a sawmill.  Understanding how to mill for the best figure and best quality, as well as understanding how wood dries and milling to achieve the highest quality result requires an investment on the millers part into educating themselves.  If we're willing to pay our Dr.'s, accountant's, lawyers, etc based upon the amount of education that they have, why shouldn't a sawyer who takes the time to continually increase his/her education also be compensated based upon their time and educational investment?

Also, I do not find slabbing to be physically easier than milling with the hydraulic Baker bandmill (Tom).  My yield per hour is much greater on the bandmill, and my physical exertions much less as compared with slabbing. 

"Last question. If you have equipment that can easily move a 3,000 pound log, why are you moving around 400 pound slabs by hand?"

Actually, I have equipment available that can move a 50,000 lb log...  The question regarding moving by hand versus equipment is based upon what is fastest and easiest.  Typically when we slab we have a forklift positioned next to the slabber, and we slide the slabs off of the log and onto the forks (or pile of slabs that are accumulating onto the forks).  I have not found a way to use equipment to pick the slabs up off of the log w/o risking damage to the sides of the slab where they would be clamped into some type of grapple.  Plus, it's faster to simply use physical exertion to slide the slab over onto the forks, but it still takes time and multiple people if it's a large slab.  Some of the slabs that we mill weigh well over 1000 lbs, and that requires multiple people in order to slide them.

Good discussion, I hope that it's educational and beneficial for our members.

Scott, great post. Taking these things into consideration is the difference between being in business, and staying in business. I see a lot of people go into business, and do well for the first 3-5 years or so, but when that first round of equipment is worn out, your credit is shot, and you have no way to make capital investments to keep going, you are toast. Those considerations, a motorcycle accident, and a serious hospitalization put my landscaping business down for the count ten years ago.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

scsmith42

LB, I provided great detail of all of my costs and production numbers in the link to the other thread that I referenced in my earlier response to you.

Because most of what I slab is large diameter oak, the example numbers are based the cost associated with milling a 60" diameter oak log. They include fuel, oil, sharpening costs, chain replacement costs, labor, etc. I did not break things down to include all overhead costs, but primarily the variable costs. Gas and oil works out to be around 8 bucks each per hour, plus another ten bucks of wear on the chain (excludes sharpening costs). Although we sharpen our own chains, a local shop would charge $30 bucks each if we took them in.

Smaller diameter logs of a different species are less costly to mill, as we both know.

I have seen Frank Seaman's Lucas slabber in operation, and estimate that it is around 10%-15% more cost efficient than mine. My bar is 7' long and my depth of cut is 20", and my engine has 10% more HP (30) than his which I think contributes to the slightly higher OpEx. My slabber was designed to allow me to mill 60" diameter logs into thirds for subsequent processing into QS lumber on the Baker band mill.

Frank charges $75.00 per hour and the last time we spoke he was considering raising his rates.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

logboy

So if I have this right, because your operating costs are high, therefore my costs have to be high? Because its not possible someone is able to slab logs faster, cheaper, or easier than your home built slabber?   

After looking at the other thread, I immediately saw why you cant charge what I do and make any money. To say your operating specs arent in the ballpark of my Lucas is an understatement. 

You use $8 of fuel an hour. I use $8.75 -13 in an 8 hour day with my Lucas slabber. Yes, a day. I have a 16hp BS engine with a high efficiency California carb. Its only running when I'm cutting. At the end of the cut I turn it off. No need to have it running while the slab is moved out of the way, the slab is swept off, the log is scanned for metal, nails are dug out, the mill is lowered for the next cut, etc. Its a pull start, so no battery or starter to wear out.

You use $8 worth of bar oil per hour. A Lucas slabber is designed to only use a quart or so a day. We dont use bar oil, as it is too thick, so we're supposed to use engine oil. I use a different oil that works great and I get for free. Yes, free. I dont even pay for the containers it comes in. I'm not a special snowflake, anyone can do what I'm doing if they figure it out.

You can only make 2 slabs with a chain before it needs to be swapped. Unless the log is dirty, really dry, really big, or full of metal, I can cut a full log with 1-2 chains. In an average full day I'll go through 7-9 chains depending on what I'm doing. I'll cut over 100 slabs in a day if things go smoothly (have fun tallying your bdft measure). The first two cuts in this maple were done with the chain from the previous log so as not to run a sharp chain through mostly bark. The rest of the log was cut with one chain. For reference, the stickers are 48" so the maple was well over 50".



You can only sharpen your chains 10-15 times before you toss them. At this point I have to ask, what on earth are you doing to your chains?!? Thats all you get out of them? If its not run through metal or rocks, I can sharpen an Oregon 27RX chain dozens upon dozens of times. Ive never actually worn a chain completely out. Because I saw urban trees it will hit metal and be replaced at the customer's expense long before then.

I did a little experiment tonight on the sharpener. I put a dial caliper on a tooth before and after sharpening and took pictures. Can you see the difference? Me neither. Thats because you only need to take off a couple thousandths to put a sharp edge back on the tooth for cutting. I have no idea why you can only sharpen yours 10 times.






It takes you an hour to take a chain off, sharpen it, and put it back on. I can swap chains in 3-5 minutes. Unless they hit rocks or metal, I can sharpen a days worth of chains in about an hour on the grinder at home. I can sharpen each chain dozens of times so my chain depreciation costs are very low. If I hit metal or rocks or snap teeth, the customer pays for my time sharpening and the cost of the damage. I have yet to simply wear a chain out. They will always hit metal and get completely destroyed before then and the customer buys a new one (minus a little of whatever the chain is already depreciated). If I didnt hit metal or or rocks or continue ramming it through after its dull and cook the edge I could probably sharpen a chain 60-80 times.

A local guy charges you $30 each to sharpen your chains. I sharpen my own on my grinder. I use a CBN wheel that sharpens very quickly and accurately while not heating up the teeth.  It was around $100 from a local company and will sharpen 1000s of chains. It is much faster than the old pink wheel. Since I switched to it I noticed I get at least one more cut out of a chain because the edge is not heated up during sharpening. Every chain cuts the same as well because the profile of the grinding wheel never changes, unlike the cheap pink grinding wheels a lot of saw shops use. The last grinder I had was a $150 cheapy that wore out after three years and sharpened more chains than I can count.

You can mill 6" of oak in one minute. An 8 foot long log takes you 15 minutes per pass. I did a test tonight on a 36" oak. It took me 2 minutes to go 6 feet. When I did the monster elm a while back I think they said it took 7 minutes to do 15 feet at 60", or roughly 2 feet per minute at max width.  In other words I'm slabbing at least four times faster than you. That maple I posted above? First cut to last cut was 1-1.5 hours. The general rule is, if the log is clean and green then she'll cut like a dream.

Here's a video I took and posted a while back of some elm I was slabbing. You can compare cutting speeds. I think it was around 36" wide.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIVTvrA6lV0

Based on what you listed on the other thread, it costs you more to slab for one hour than it costs me for an entire day. What I dont understand is why you would automatically assume that just because it costs you that much with your mill then it must cost everyone that much. Or that because your mill can only make two passes per chain, then everyone can only cut two passes per chain. Or that because you throw your chains out after just ten sharpenings then everyone does. Or that because it takes you $16 per hour in oil and gas then everyone must pay that. Who does that?

Theres not a facet of my Lucas slabber I havent examined to make it cut faster, easier, and for less money. I customized my mill so I can keep my tools handy and speed things up while cutting. I grind my chains differently so they cut faster and smoother than the stock chains. My throttle is longer so I can push on the middle of the slabber and get through a log faster. So on and so forth. And I'm always looking for ways to improve things. Always.

When someone claims to do something cheaper, faster, better, etc, my first inclination isnt to tell them why they cant do it, its to figure out how they did do it, because maybe they know something I dont.  Instead of doing that you made it sound like I didnt know what I was doing and characterized a business that helps put a roof over my head and food on my table as a "hobby".
I like Lucas Mills and big wood.  www.logboy.com

scsmith42

LB - awesome post!  Thanks much for sharing some of your business metrics, as clearly you have done an extraordinary job in figuring out the most efficient way to operate a slabber.

If you don't mind, I'm going to plug your metrics into a business model and then come back to you with some additional questions and results (probably later tomorrow).  It appears that we all can learn a lot from you.

Regards,

Scott
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.


treeworkx

You use $8 worth of bar oil per hour. A Lucas slabber is designed to only use a quart or so a day. We dont use bar oil, as it is too thick, so we're supposed to use engine oil. I use a different oil that works great and I get for free. Yes, free. I dont even pay for the containers it comes in. I'm not a special snowflake, anyone can do what I'm doing if they figure it out.

What is the bar oil your using ?

scsmith42

J.R. - thanks again for sharing your metrics, as well as some of the operations tips.  I'm going to look into obtaining the CBN wheel that you mentioned; sounds like that will help reduce my OpEx.

Re the bar oil, are you using waste vegetable oil or used engine oil from a local oil change place?  Those were the first two options that came to mind from your comments.

As I mentioned earlier, I would like to plug your metrics into a spreadsheet and compare them with mine, as we can all learn a great deal from your successes.  Please understand that I am not being facetious with this comment - it is often difficult to discern where the other party is coming from on e-mail or a forum and I would like for you to understand that my intent is respectful and serious.

If I'm understanding your information correctly, your slabber is consuming between 8.75 - 13 dollars of fuel per 8 hour day.  Brake Specific Fuel Consumption for an 18 hp gasoline engine is typically between .48 - .60; based upon your comments about your fuel efficient California Carb I will use the most efficient number of .48 for my calculations.

Based upon that, it appears that your slabber engine operates between 2.02 - 2.9 hours per 8 hour day ($8.75 dollars of fuel consumed divided by estimated $3.25 cost per gallon=2.79 gallons per day / 3.25 gallons per day for $13.00 worth of fuel).  Converted to minutes this would be 121.2 - 174 minutes of "time in the log".  The rest of the 8 hours I presume are spent in adjusting slabber height and pulling the head back, log handling, slab handling, stacking, stickering, relocating slab piles, etc.  In your typical 8 hour production day are you spending time to talk with customers, answering phone calls, etc, or are you 100% focused on operating the mill with resulting log/slab handling?  If this includes customer interface, etc, for the average day where you use 8.75 - 13 gallons of fuel how much time is spent on non-production related needs?  (we both know that production will be different if you're quartering a log, so for modeling purposes let's presume that the entire day is spent slabbing and not quartering).  Also, do you work alone or is your production rate based upon a miller plus an offbearer / assistant?

Based upon a slabbing rate of 2' per minute for 60" elm, and 3' per minute for 36" oak, based upon the fuel consumption numbers above I'm calculating your production rate at between 242 - 348 linear feet of 60" elm per day, and 363 - 522 LF of 36" oak per day. 

Assuming a 3" thick cut (based upon your earlier comments in this thread about slabbing wider logs at 3"), 3" x 36" x 1' = 9 board feet per linear feet of 36" oak, and 15 board feet of 60" elm per linear feet.

Therefore, your production rate for 36" oak is between 3,267 - 4,797 board feet per 8 hour shift (363 lf/hr x 9 bd ft per lf =3267 bd ft/hr, and 522 lf/hr x 9 bd ft / lf = 4,797 bd ft per 8 hour shift).

Production rate for 60" elm would be between 3,630 - 5,220 bd ft per 8 hour shift (242 lf/hr x 15 bd ft / lf = 3,630 bd ft per 8 hour shift, and 348 lf/hr x 15 bd ft / lf = 5,220 bd ft / 8 hour day).

Do my theoretical calculations match up with your real world experiences?  If so, then based upon your estimate charge of ten to twenty cents per board foot for slabbing the min/max gross revenue per average 8 hour day would work out as follows:

36" oak , billed at .10 per board foot would be $326.00 per 8 hour day, or $40.82 gross revenue per hour( based upon the highest fuel consumption / hour and lowest production rate / hr.)

60" elm, billed at .20 per board foot would be $1,044 gross revenue per day / $130.00 per hour gross revenue (based upon the lowest fuel consumption / hour with highest production rate / hr).

If these numbers match up with your actual experiences, I would next like to introduce some additional cost metrics into the model.

Thanks much.

Scott
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

rasman57

Did I just have a mental circus happen in my feeble mind or did a thick Maple Slab kinda bein sawed up pretend like....go off into customer interface and theoretical calculations and metric math....  YIKES.  It is interesting in a Rain Man sort of way for me.     I wanna go to KMARt...wanna go to KMART..   Good stuff and sooner or later it will turn to food.  Complicated food probably but food none the less.

xlogger

questions for you slabbing mill owners. If your chain gets off when sharpening like some do on a chainsaw, does it still run straight with the slabber? Also if you hit metal in a cut, what do you try to do, maybe back the chain out to repair or replace?
Timberking 2000, Turbo slabber Mill, 584 Case, Bobcat 773, solar kiln, Nyle L-53 DH kiln

Seaman

Xlogger,
yes it matters if your angle if off when comparing opposing teeth ( left and right). It will cause the slabber to cut up or down.
When I hit metal, if the chain did not snap, I continue till the cut is finished, then change chains.
Backing out is a pain because you normally have wedges in behind the cut.
Hope this helps.
If you come West look us up !
Frank
Lucas dedicated slabber
Woodmizer LT40HD
John Deere 5310 W/ FEL
Semper Fi

terrifictimbersllc

When I feel the first "bump" of metal, I push once or twice fairly hard to see if I can cut through it.  After it goes through, whether I change the chain or not depends how it is cutting and how much farther I have to go. Backing out isn't too difficult.
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

glassman_48

Logboy,
Would you mind putting a link to the cbn grinder that you use please.  scsmith42, thanks for all your efforts in here, I learned a lot from you and logboy in this post.  I have a lot of relatives in Durham, N.C.  next time I get down that way I would like to stop for a visit if that would be possible.   thanks again,,,,ed

scsmith42

Quote from: glassman_48 on August 24, 2014, 09:49:19 AM
Logboy,
Would you mind putting a link to the cbn grinder that you use please.  scsmith42, thanks for all your efforts in here, I learned a lot from you and logboy in this post.  I have a lot of relatives in Durham, N.C.  next time I get down that way I would like to stop for a visit if that would be possible.   thanks again,,,,ed

Ed, I always enjoy meeting fellow FF members; you're welcome to stop by.  I'm about 30 - 45 minutes from Durham.  It's best to schedule a bit in advance, as every day brings a new adventure and I find that I can set aside more "quality time" if I have a few days to adjust the schedule.

Based upon his production rate, Logboy is clearly at the top of his game when it comes to slabbing.  I hope that he continues to share some of his tips.

My own background is that of helping hurting businesses (or departments in large corporations) to turn around and become successful again.  If there is one constant that I have seen amongst many of my fellow millers is that they undervalue their services and don't charge enough.

Usually I do a better job of explaining this than I did earlier in this post when I upset LB with my thoughtless comment about being a hobbiest.  Hopefully he will forgive me at some point in time.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

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