Pricing/competing issue

[WDH]

The fact whether the sawyer has a manual or full hydraulic sawmill should not affect the sawing bf rate (price), although it certainly would affect how much work the sawyer has to do to produce that lumber.

No, I do not agree.  A customer should pay for services rendered.  If I am upfront with the customer about his alternatives, and he chooses me to saw his lumber above all other lower cost options, why should I work for pennies?  Why is my investment in time and equipment worth less than yours?

In general, the marketplace and competition sorts this out.  Just because Walmart is the low cost leader, the Mom and Pop store cannot set their prices and compete with Walmart and stay in business.  If they charge more and customers still choose to come and do business with them, then it is the customer's choice.  If and when the customer's don't choose the Mom and Pop, and take all their business to Walmart, the the Mom and Pop go under.  That is how the marketplace will sort out competition. 

Just because the Mom and Pop charges more than Walmart because they do not have the same volume and efficiency does not mean that they are obligated to offer their goods at the same prices as Walmart. 

MM, you might be the Walmart of Custom Sawing  :D. 

[Magicman]

I understand your point of view, and actually we are in agreement in that the customer has the full right to expect a quality product at a fair and agreed upon price.  This point has been emphasized many times about the importance of communicating fully with the customer before any work begins.

Our markets are vastly different in that probably 90% of my sawing is framing lumber.  Not selling but sawing.  In that market, the finished product price has to be significantly lower than the store bought price or it is not economical for the customer.  Doesn't matter whether it is sawn with a manual or hydraulic sawmill, bf rate or hourly, it has to be economical for the customer or the sawyer is out of business.

[slider]

Nails,what nails.

[red oaks lumber]

custom sawing in our area has a price limit so, we just figured out how to produce more b.f. per hour to over come our fixed costs. another revenue stream alot of sawyers over look or don't look close enough is, the value of waste products( slabs/sawdust)

[Ribsy]

It just seems to me that when milling offsite at a customer's location, leaving waste at the cutting site and utilizing labor provided by the customer as well as all material handling for sticking and stacking that the sawyer comes out way ahead versus cutting the same logs on sawyer's property and having to deal with all of the above without assistance.

I am finding that I can make some decent money sawing mobile but at the shop I slowwww way down. I think its 1 part sawing and 4 parts handling. I may be taking myself out of the market, but I don't see how I can make money sawing on my yard. Unless I dress and dry the lumber which I eventually wish to pursue but thats a whole new ball game. Apples to oranges.

[Peter Drouin]

custom sawing in our area has a price limit so, we just figured out how to produce more b.f. per hour to over come our fixed costs. another revenue stream alot of sawyers over look or don't look close enough is, the value of waste products( slabs/sawdust)

You are on the money, I started out with a 40 manual mill with a 24 horse Onan 27 years ago. At .10 a bf . Over the years I had to cut more an Hour, I went to the 40 hydraulic with a 24 horse onan and the mill could not keep up. Now with a 40 Supper with 51 horses I think I'm there, But just barely. At .30 to .40 a bf. Cutting fee.

I agree with WDH on price, I would rather sell my lumber than cut a customer log

[stumpy]

I realized that I cannot compete with the higher production hydraulic mills.  So I don't.  I don't like to custom saw other people's logs, anyway.  I try to discourage it and refer them to other sawyers.  Custom sawing is not part of my business plan.  Why cut for $.30/BF when I can produce the same amount of lumber and sell it for $3.00/BF?   However, everyone is different, and some do very well custom sawing other people's lumber for $.25 - $.30 per BF.

So, if you want me to still cut your logs after I have begged tell you that you can get someone else to do it faster and cheaper, then I might do it, but it will cost you $.50/BF or $60/hour depending on how I feel.

Then, after hitting the first couple of nails when you swore that there was no metal in them logs, I ask myself, "Why am I doing this  ???  ."

Or, I am sawing and sweat is pouring out of me, dripping off the end of my nose, and my safety glasses are fogged up, I ask myself, "Why am I doing this  ???  ".

Bottom line, you cannot make it trying to custom saw with a manual sawmill.  Too much log handling, very physically demanding, and lower production.  This means that you are sawing for very little return at the competitive rates.  Life is too short for that.

Very well said. This is why I am now a custom furniture maker that sometimes saws logs for people. My only comment would be that when I do saw for people, I only do it at my place and I charge $75 per hour and $20 per blade if I hit anything.  If they can't bring the logs to me, I charge the same hourly charge to go pick them up. I have a manual LT30.

[stumpy]

Around here, most sawing is discretionary. Meaning that most people don't "have to" saw their logs.  They just want to. For that reason, there is a limit to how much they're willing to pay. But that's just one side of the coin. The more common occurrence is that many guys buy mills and decide they are now a business and go out and start sawing at a much too low of a price.  After doing it awhile, they realize they need more than just a mill and begin to spend money on support equip. After that, they realize they're not charging enough so they change they're prices and find that people are not willing to spend that, so they charge less and then realize that they are working for peanuts.  Moral of the story, learn your market, know your costs, and only then decide weather you are "in business" One more thing I've learned about my market. In most cases, having a hydraulic mill would have been an advantage, but the bigger issues that, most of the time, there is a need for equipment to stage the logs.  This is another reason that I've always charged by the hour.  If I get there and have to "muscle" the logs around to start sawing, it's going to cost them.

[Chuck White]

It would be mighty hard to "make a living" custom sawing with a manual, but you can make money.

If you wanted to "make a living" custom sawing you'll need a hydraulic mill!

[backwoods sawyer]

Here in Douglas county we have seven big walmart mills to compete with, along with the big box stores selling lumber, a question I get asked quite often is "Why should I not just buy my lumber in town at $.30 bft you can buy economy 8' 2x4's" My answer is yes you can but where you save is on the longer and bigger pieces, while you are there take a look at 1" prices :P I don't mill many straight 2x4 jobs, but I do mill a lot of 1" and full package jobs.
The customer also has the option to take thier logs to one of the stationary mills, but transporting logs cost the customer time and money as well, self loaders start at $75 hr and have a min, and for that same min that would move one load of logs across the county I can take the mill anywhere in the state.

when a customer is compairing the hydraulic mill to the manual mills I use this example. do you hire the farmer guy with a 18-24 hp kabota with a backhoe attachment that is charging the same or close to what the guy that makes a living with a Case 680 exstenda hoe to dig the foundation and put in the sewer syetem?
If the Kabota can do the same job for the same cost as the Case then it just comes down to how long do you want to wait to have the job completed.
The Kabota has its place as does the manual mill, they cost less to perchase and less to operate then the bigger Case back hoe or hydraulic mills but they take longer to do the same job, so should they really be charging the same by the foot or by the job sure, but by the hr? no compairison.

mom and pops don't compete with walmart by carrying all the same items, but specialize in the ones that they can compete with and it is up to them to keep their cost down to the point that they can compete. not the customers. 


   

[stumpy]

Here in Douglas county we have seven big walmart mills to compete with, along with the big box stores selling lumber, a question I get asked quite often is "Why should I not just buy my lumber in town at $.30 bft you can buy economy 8' 2x4's" My answer is yes you can but where you save is on the longer and bigger pieces, while you are there take a look at 1" prices :P I don't mill many straight 2x4 jobs, but I do mill a lot of 1" and full package jobs.
The customer also has the option to take thier logs to one of the stationary mills, but transporting logs cost the customer time and money as well, self loaders start at $75 hr and have a min, and for that same min that would move the logs across the county I can take the mill anywhere in the state.

when a customer is compairing the hydraulic mill to the manual mills I use this example. do you hire the guy with a 18-24 hp kabota with a backhoe attachment that is charging the same or close to what the guy with case 680 exstenda hoe to dig the foundation and put in the sewer syetem?
If the Kabota can do the same job for the same cost as the Case then it just comes down to how long do you want to wait to have the job completed.
The Kabota has its place as does the manual mill, they cost less to perchase and less to operate then the bigger Case or hydraulic mills but they take longer to do the same job, so should they realy be charging the same by the foot or by the job sure, but by the hr? no compairison.

mom and pops don't compete with walmart by carrying all the same items, but specialize in the ones that they can compete with and it is up to them to keep their cost down to the point that they can compete. not the customers. 
I can't disagree with your analysis, but that is from the customers perspective.  The Business question is, "is the case guy charging to little or is the Kubota too much?" And more importantly, is either one making money?  and more importantly, are they making money(profit after costs) or are they just making a wage.

[Gideon_70]

Around here, most sawing is discretionary. Meaning that most people don't "have to" saw their logs.  They just want to. For that reason, there is a limit to how much they're willing to pay. But that's just one side of the coin. The more common occurrence is that many guys buy mills and decide they are now a business and go out and start sawing at a much too low of a price.  After doing it awhile, they realize they need more than just a mill and begin to spend money on support equip. After that, they realize they're not charging enough so they change they're prices and find that people are not willing to spend that, so they charge less and then realize that they are working for peanuts.  Moral of the story, learn your market, know your costs, and only then decide weather you are "in business" One more thing I've learned about my market. In most cases, having a hydraulic mill would have been an advantage, but the bigger issues that, most of the time, there is a need for equipment to stage the logs.  This is another reason that I've always charged by the hour.  If I get there and have to "muscle" the logs around to start sawing, it's going to cost them.

My situation is different.  I bought a mill to use for myself, not to make money.  I planned to do enough sawing to pay for the mill, and if it turned into more, then fine.  I plan to buy property in a couple of years, and this is preparation for building my house there.  My payoff is experience, and understanding my running costs, and learning to deal with the cut product and when/how I can use it.... not what people say, but what I know.

So I put up a website and offered custom sawing.  I don't want to be a production mill, but a guy that you call when you drop an tree and want to make a bench or picnic table out of it.  I'm smack in the middle of a city, and almost all of the trees I cut are those dropped in people's yards - so far.

But because I am doing this for myself, and plan to do it in an area that is a little rough, I've been gathering the equipment I need, adding tractors, pulling equipment and log arches (I get to explore welding my own stuff as well, fun fun fun).

So far I have the mill, a log arch that straddles my trailer so I can drop the logs without excess handling, a cub cadet that I rescued because it had potential to pull logs around with my arch - and I can take logs out of people's yards without damaging their grass, and a railroad track that I mounted my mill on so that I could do 16' beams.  I have a tiny yard and can only handle about 15 logs at once.

I'm looking forward to my new land, so much, so so much.

[Cypress Man]

I'm with WDH. My thoughts exactly.

[BmoreReclaimed]

I am very interested in your experience with your Harbor Freight Mill.  My buddy was going to buy one and I advised against it because of the quality. Curious how well the components are made, fit and finish ect?  Im honestly blown away that you advertise custom sawing and such, saying 10in and under logs slow you down and you can cut up to a 20" 10' long log.  If this mill really works as advertised my buddy will definitely buy one.  Or did you upgrade motor, stiffen frame and such to make it suit your needs better?

[Gideon_70]

I am very interested in your experience with your Harbor Freight Mill.  My buddy was going to buy one and I advised against it because of the quality. Curious how well the components are made, fit and finish ect?  Im honestly blown away that you advertise custom sawing and such, saying 10in and under logs slow you down and you can cut up to a 20" 10' long log.  If this mill really works as advertised my buddy will definitely buy one.  Or did you upgrade motor, stiffen frame and such to make it suit your needs better?

I found that the mill isn't badly made.  It is HEAVY. 

The track will let me cut, out of the box, a board that is 9'6".  The log dog is cheap and I'm replacing it eventually, but it does work.  I don't want to fool with anything under 1-" because it just makes about two 2x4's, lol.

The track is well made, but a real pain the rear end to get level and straight.  I eventually set the track up solid by pouring a set of railroad ties with concrete.  I put down two long 2x4's, and built boxes at the best support points (You MUST have one where the tracks meet) and poured them... then put 2x4 cross braces and secured the track to them.  I'll post some pics tomorrow when I figure out how.

The motor isn't bad.  It starts pretty quick and runs good.  I have to admit that instead of 30 weight oil, I put Rotella T in it.  I figured the extra zinc would break the motor in better, and I'll go to a lighter oil in a few more weeks.

The head will not cut lower than 3' off the deck.  PITA when I'm slabbing off 1x6's.

I added 7' of track a few days ago, and just now getting it set up.  I used off the shelf 2 1/2 x 2 1/2 steel, welded it all together, and so far it looks good.  Cost me a hundred, but worth it.

Problems: 
The head is a pain to raise and lower sometimes, and I eventually started spraying the left post with wd40 to keep it from sticking.

The carriage is wobbly side to side, and while it doesn't hurt anything, it annoys me.

The blade guides were so far out that it was pathetic when I got it.  Screwed up three blades before I figured out why.  I eventually took the covers off, and pulled up a log.  After an hour of alignment and fine tuning, I got it really close to good.   The blade was tracking too far back, the blocks were badly aligned, and if it could be out, it was.

The motor is not properly tightened when you get it.  The belt was loose, and I stuck my blade a couple of times before I figured out why.  I purchased a new belt from NAPA and put it on, tensioned it well, and now it cuts a 100% better.

The blade tightening lever is really stiff.  They do grease it at the factory, in passing, not looking, and badly.  I thought the blade was tight, and was cutting ocean waves in everything.  I have some of the prettiest roller coaster oak that you've ever seen.  I watched a video on changing the blade on a woodland mill (almost the same design) and the man said, turn it until it's tight, then five more times.  I was scared to do that, but did it anyway.  Now, there is about 1/16th deflection when I wiggle the blade, and that's a little tight, I think, but not by much.  But here's the kicker...  The fan belt for the motor is what the blade rides on, and it is also what allows the blade to flex as it cuts.  If it doesn't flex, then the blade will snap.  Keeping the two belts properly adjusted is really important, and the belt only cost me 10.00 or so, so it's better to just replace it.  The Chinese version was terrible.

As for cuts.  So far I've sewn just dropped white oak, magnolia, loblolly pine, and long leaf pine.  As I go along, I get better with feed rates, and my cuts are now arrow straight.  I've finally locked into cooks blades and use a thicker one.  Cooks will tell you the best ones to use, and they are right.  The mill comes with a lenox blade that is really good, IF you set the mill up right before you start cutting.

I don't like that I can't adjust the blade guides in and out.  I plan on trying to remedy this eventually.

Would I recommend it?  Yes, and no.

Yes, I would because it does the job.  It's not badly built, and it's got a motor good enough to do the job.  It will give you a lot of sawing pleasure.
No, I would not if you plan to do more than cut for yourself or do what I'm doing, just a small job or two a week.   It is underpowered a little, and yes, the carriage is flimsy even if it is heavy.  But for 1800.00, it isn't a bad mill.  I would buy it again for what I do with it.

Now, here is the real deal issue stuffz.

The mill is not going to be good enough to put on a trailer.  It's stationary and does a good job, but if you want to transport it to the job site, or mount it on a trailer, then you need something stronger and beefier.  I eventually planned to mount mine on an equipment trailer, but I know I would be better off finding an older Hudson that was made to transport.

[Magicman]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, BmoreReclaimed.

One other item for consideration is whether it retains it's value if you want to sell it and upgrade?? 

Our FF sponsor's sawmills seen on the left banner will.   ;D

[BmoreReclaimed]

Gideon, thankyou very much for your full review.  Sounds like what I expected, a rough machine that a man with insight can tune to perform as advertised.   I was definitely impressed with price tag.

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, BmoreReclaimed.

One other item for consideration is whether it retains it's value if you want to sell it and upgrade?? 

Our FF sponsor's sawmills seen on the left banner will.   ;D

Thank you Magic. I hear you on other options, its just funny I totally wrote off the product just because it is HF.  Shoot, for 2k you aren't getting ripped off.  More of an idea than a plan. 

[mikeb1079]

I am very interested in your experience with your Harbor Freight Mill.  My buddy was going to buy one and I advised against it because of the quality. Curious how well the components are made, fit and finish ect?  Im honestly blown away that you advertise custom sawing and such, saying 10in and under logs slow you down and you can cut up to a 20" 10' long log.  If this mill really works as advertised my buddy will definitely buy one.  Or did you upgrade motor, stiffen frame and such to make it suit your needs better?

don't overlook the woodland mills mill.  it's not too much more than the hf and there's been alot of positive reviews on here.  i believe that they're a sponsor as well....

[Gideon_70]

I am very interested in your experience with your Harbor Freight Mill.  My buddy was going to buy one and I advised against it because of the quality. Curious how well the components are made, fit and finish ect?  Im honestly blown away that you advertise custom sawing and such, saying 10in and under logs slow you down and you can cut up to a 20" 10' long log.  If this mill really works as advertised my buddy will definitely buy one.  Or did you upgrade motor, stiffen frame and such to make it suit your needs better?

don't overlook the woodland mills mill.  it's not too much more than the hf and there's been alot of positive reviews on here.  i believe that they're a sponsor as well....

I agree.  The Woodland Mills mill appears to be made in the same factory as the HF mill, but Woodland has some pretty nice upgrades that the HF mill doesn't.  If you ask Woodland, they say that the HF mill is a knockoff, but it appears that it's actually a much older version of their mill. 

The new version has better support, a better lift system, and looks to be quite a bit more solid.  It's about 1k more, but in my opinion, it would be worth it... and I'll bet they'll negotiate.