More about property lines

[Cord-n-8R]

Hello, been awile since I've posted here but I still read the FF pretty regular.

I own an 80 ac. property about 250 mi. from home so I don't get up there as often as I should or would like. The LO with the 40 that lies to the north of my east half has been working with a forester and is looking to have his timber harvested. I wasn't able to make it up there a few months ago when he initially met with the forester to walk the property and run lines, although I would've liked to have been because I may also want to consider doing a harvest at the same time and knew I should be there to confirm my agreement with the property lines. I'm on friendly terms with the neighbor and do not wish to create any hard feelings or get into a dispute about property lines. He also does not live there but is only an hour or so away. Last week when I was up there and saw the EW line that (I'm assuming) the forester marked and I think he's off by quite a distance - possibly 90-100' on my side of where I think the line should be. He flagged the line and painted with blue paint, going from the road that runs north/south through my property to what should be my NE corner. My SE corner is the section corner and is marked with a survey marker. I'm fairly certain that the NE corner that he marked may be pretty accurate as there is evidence there of a corner mark, just not an official survey marker, and it's close enough to where I have determined in the past that it should be, using my compass, GPS and measuring with rope. The problem I have is where his line comes out to the road (which is approx. 450'+/- from my N/S property line to the east) doesn't seem right. I spoke on the phone to my neighbor and expressed my concern that the line comes out less than ten feet north of my driveway and I feel it should be considerably further to the north, and he was somewhat agreeable that that seems a little close to my drive but did not seem to totally agree with my opinion of how much further north it should be. I'm hoping to meet up with him in the near future and see what we can agree on.

My concerns and questions to you guys are; 1) If I use DAFTLOGIC on Google Maps to plot a line from the SE corner north 1320', that should be pretty accurate?... then straight west 1320' should show us where the east/west line is and his SW corner. Is Daftlogic accurate enough to rely on for that?
2) Is it possible the forester (or whoever marked that line) didn't have his compass bearing right? NGDC/NOAA has a website with a 'magnetic declination calculator' that states the declination for that location is currently 4.48 deg. W. (changing by 0.06 W per yr.). Assuming 1 deg. at 1 mi. could throw you of by 100', then 4.5 deg. at 450-500' could be between 50-100'? The other thing that seems puzzling is that E/W line was only painted to the road, on the west side of the road there's only two ribbons, whereas whoever was flagging that line would have continued on another 700' or so, and I saw  no flags or ribbons running north to indicate the neighbors west property line of his forty.

Sorry this got so lengthy but I wanted to provide as much info as possible to get some good answers and/or advise.

By the way, I've tried contacting the forester, with no luck so far.

Thanks for reading and any replys, if nothing else maybe it was an interestin read.

Steve   
     

[beenthere]

You mentioned the 1320'.. which is 1/4 mile. Is that also the measurement on the surveyor maps and/or the deed?

In the meantime, send a letter to the forester to let him/her know that you are contesting (or not presently in agreement) with the lines as flagged/marked. Get that in writing for your own protection.. Better than "after the fact" IMO.

What is the history of the surveying of your property, as well as you as owner?

[landscraper]

I would call a surveyor pronto.  I bet the judge will take a stamped and recorded survey, plat, or determination of boundary long before he will look at any internet resource in the event this comes to court.  I agree that you should notify the forester in writing that you dispute the boundary and the timber harvest and are pursuing recourse, bet you get a prompt response.

[WDH]

Definitely contact you neighboring landowner and dispute the line in writing.  It is his responsibility if he is selling the timber to make sure that the line is correct.  The Forester is only working for him. 

[Ron Scott]

Yes, you should have a registered surveyor establish your property lines with a certificate of survey before any timber harvest is done, especially if you contest the property line as established by the forester who is preparing a timber sale for your neighbor. Advise your neighbor of your concerns in writing as they should be responsible for their property lines before they initiate the timber harvest which might be in trespass on your property.

[LeeB]

Surveys aren't cheap. Who should pay for this?

[Cord-n-8R]

You mentioned the 1320'.. which is 1/4 mile. Is that also the measurement on the surveyor maps and/or the deed?

In the meantime, send a letter to the forester to let him/her know that you are contesting (or not presently in agreement) with the lines as flagged/marked. Get that in writing for your own protection.. Better than "after the fact" IMO.

What is the history of the surveying of your property, as well as you as owner?

The property description on the deed is "Sec (...), T(...)N, R(...)W, 80 A, S1/2 of SE1/4"... So it's rectangular E to W, hence the 1/4 mi. or 1320' on the east boundary running north/south. I called the Register of Deeds office and they said there are no survey points recorded in that area other than the section corners and a few properties in the north half of the section. Very few properties up there have recorded surveys as it is quite remote and for the most part properties are 40, 80, 120.... 640, etc..
The woman at the Register of Deeds said she will look into it some more to see if she can find any other recorded survey information in the are or anything that may be helpful.
In the meantime I will send an email to the forester letting him know I am not presently in agreement with the lines as marked... thanks for that bit of advice. I will also speak with the neighboring LO and if I then feel the need I will also put it in writing to him... like I said, at this point we are on good terms, friends actually, and would prefer to remain that way and not create a dispute if unnecessary.

Surveys aren't cheap. Who should pay for this?

That is the question exactly. Are they resonsible to make sure it is correct?... or does the burden of proof fall on me because I'm contesting it?

I also spoke with someone at the local county mapping and survey office who said that although the legal description of my property is a very good description, it may not necessarilly be EXACTLY 80 ac. and the measurements my not be EXACTLY 1320 x 2640, depending on where the section corners were surveyed from and where the next section corners may be... or something to that effect... basically, to find my NE corner the surveyor would need to locate the NE corner of the section/SE corner of the next section to the north, then measure to the half and the half of the half... could get expensive!!!

Thanks for all the input so far.

[WDH]

Yes surveys are very expensive.  You are not the one wanting to cut the timber.  Why should you have to pay because your neighbor wants to remove trees?  Fine, as long as they are not your trees. 

In most cases like this, the line will be what has been observed or used over the years, like an old fence.  It might not be exactly the line, but if was used as the boundary line by both parties, it in effect becomes the line. 

My opinion is that if the section corners can be located, a reasonable line that both you and your friend can live with can be established without an expensive survey. 

Another option is to have the disputed line surveyed and marked, and you both split the cost. 

[pappy19]

There are really only 2 options; either you and your neighbor agree on the boundary or both split the cost of a registered survey. If it was me, I would try and work with the neighbor on the boundary, then mark it well and have just that portion of the boundary surveyed and record it as an "Affadavit Of Boundary Agreement", so any future questions on the location of that boundary is of record. Another question to ask that forester is what type of instrument did he use to locate the boundary; was it a staff compass or just a hand held Ranger type? Big difference in accuracy.

[Cord-n-8R]

Anyone care to comment on the magnetic declination issue? Just looking for a logical explanation to present to them... although I find it hard to believe that a professional forester would not know this or to be that far off on his compass reading.

[pappy19]

What is the declanation in WI? Even if the declanation was set on his compass, if he wasn't using a staff compass and a rodman, he could be way off in 1/4 mile by just pacing.

[ashes]

Keep us informed. I am working on a plan right now where we will have to walk the property line of the adjacent landowner to determine the boundary. I have already walked most of the line and the older trees have been blazed to represent the approximate boundary. We are also on good terms with the other owner, but of course it could come to a survey if the complete line can't be agreed on. Problem is on this land a lot of the trees that were originally blazed have been harvested. It was not too tough to stay on the line though walking it with a compass.

[Ron Scott]

The burden of proof is on the landowner initiating the timber harvest to know where their property line is before cutting the timber. You may wish to share in the cost of the survey with the neighbor as an amiable neighbor, but if you have concerns about your neighbor being in trespass and harvesting your trees, then you might have to pay for the registered survey to prove that the neighbor is in trespass.

Foresters aren't Surveyors unless they are licensed in their state as such should you get into legal issues concerning your property line. Foresters establish "cutting lines" not property lines unless they are licensed to do so. They may relocate a line and locate the section corners that were set by a licensed surveyor however.

[landscraper]

I'm very interested to hear how this is resolved, mostly because it seems to be very different in some other states than Virginia.  Anytime there has been a dispute around here that I have seen or been involved in (which through my work is several over the last 20 years or so), a surveyor is hired to re-establish the line and determine the extent of trespass or encroachment.  We do not use quarters or sections here though, all metes and bounds at least as far as I've ever seen.  BTW almost every dispute I've seen has been a result of where someone thought their line was, when in fact they did not know where their corners were, or the irons had been lost or covered.  I was recently on the receiving end of an allegation by a property owner adjoining some land I was clearing, she hired two separate survey firms to re-establish her side line to substantiate her allegation that I had removed trees over the line.  The first surveyor set up on her corners and set point-on-line nails and stakes every so many feet (it was a straight line), it showed I was well within the correct property.  She didn't like that survey so she hired another one and he told her that the first guy was off a hair on one of his nails, but that I was still not over her line.  When it came to light that I was in the right she said the basis for her allegation was that the realtor who sold her the land said "your property goes all the way over to there".  She didn't know that my clearing limits had been flagged by a surveyor in the first place, working off the front and opposite side line of the lot I was working on.  Lots in subdivisions around here are recorded on a common plat, cuts down on the arguments.   She wouldn't let me get a word in edgewise between all the yelling


There are about 25 irons set that form the boundary for the property I own.  I can and do find each and every one of them every year and refresh the flagging on them, usually while I am posting before hunting season.  Too expensive to lose one and pay to have it reset or found.  There are a few points that are set in the streambed, but I don't bother with finding them, the fish don't care which side of the line they swim on. 

[Ron Scott]

Yes, one should always maintain their lines well after they have been surveyed. Why pay a surveyor again to relocate them for you. ;)

[chester_tree _farmah]

The burden of proof is on the landowner initiating the timber harvest to know where their property line is before cutting the timber. You may wish to share in the cost of the survey with the neighbor as an amiable neighbor, but if you have concerns about your neighbor being in trespass and harvesting your trees, then you might have to pay for the registered survey to prove that the neighbor is in trespass.

Foresters aren't Surveyors unless they are licensed in their state as such should you get into legal issues concerning your property line. Foresters establish "cutting lines" not property lines unless they are licensed to do so. They may relocate a line and locate the section corners that were set by a licensed surveyor however.

I agree with Ron 100% on all his feedback.

Forestry suppliers have paint especially made for blazing. Proper blazing of trees can last for decades.

[beenthere]

Proper blazing of trees can last for decades.

Makes it real important to know the property line before "blazing" the trees with long-lasting paint.

I think some "blaze" as they go, and don't worry about tie'ing in at a known corner and re-adjusting the line they just ran (and blazed ).

[Claybraker]

On a related note, what are everyone's thoughts on using metal T-posts for marking a property line? We just spent a considerable sum having our property surveyed, with flagging every 100' or so. My original plan was to paint trees on the line, unfortunately it appears my neighbors have cleared a bit beyond our property line. Most of the tree line in the below picture the property line is only 10' or so away, but the pond in the north-west corner extends 73' into our property, according to the surveyor.

Legal issues with the existing trespass aside, what are some good ways to more or less permanently mark and maintain a property line every 100' or so when there aren't trees available to paint?

[tempforce]

using metal 't' post is a great way to mark property lines. mark them with fluorescent paint and make sure to stay on the line... every few post, paint the top with purple paint. also paint the corner post purple. this is the universal do not trespass color in castle states, where the use of deadly force is allowed.

[chester_tree _farmah]

Proper blazing of trees can last for decades.

Makes it real important to know the property line before "blazing" the trees with long-lasting paint.

I think some "blaze" as they go, and don't worry about tie'ing in at a known corner and re-adjusting the line they just ran (and blazed ).

Tell me about it. When I bought my land there was a hunting shack very close to where we wanted to put the house. I asked that that part of the line be surveyed because if the shack wasn't on my side off the line I didn't want the land. It was just the perfect spot for a secluded house in the middle of the woods. So yeah they started at a corner but a few times they hit a thick bunch of young fir they couldn't walk through, without clearing a path, they went around it AND FLAGGED around it.

The hunting camp is now my tool shed but just an example of what can happen.


As Ron said why pay to have it re surveyed.  If u get it surveyed be sure to blaze it correctly and re blaze as needed over the years.

If u r not a surveyor in Maine you r only legally allowed to re blazed old evidence of a blaze. It's easy to pick out healed blazes once u see a few of them. Else u may be looking at a survey and $$$ out of your harvest proceeds.

[Ron Scott]

Yes, we always recommend that the landowner retain a permanent surveyed line with the placement of  "metal t stakes" soon after the registered surveyor has established the line. We always ask the surveyor to place intervisible wooden stakes at 100 foot intervals which are then soon replaced with the "metal t stakes" so as to maintain a permanent line for all future land management. 

[Cord-n-8R]

I would call a surveyor pronto.  I bet the judge will take a stamped and recorded survey, plat, or determination of boundary long before he will look at any internet resource in the event this comes to court.  I agree that you should notify the forester in writing that you dispute the boundary and the timber harvest and are pursuing recourse, bet you get a prompt response.

I'm hoping we can work this out as friends and neighbors, without an expensive survey, and it doesn't need to go before a judge... either way I wouldn't rely on any internet source in the event of court. I just would like to know if Daftlogic is accurate/reliable enough for me to use for the sake of argument. (assuming I put the markers in the correct location)

I spoke with the neighboring LO and there seems to be some confusion as he thinks the line is pretty accurate until he sees where the flags are hung on the west side of the road, then he says that ain't right. I also emailed him with a link to the Daftlogic map explaining how I arrived at my conclusions. I also emailed the forester explaining the situation to him, along with the map link, and asked him if he compensated for declination, type of compass used and if he tied in with any other points. I tried to stress that I'm not questioning his ability, just looking for a logical explanation as to why we are so far off on where we feel the line should be and that I know he is only working for the LO who has the ultimate responsibility of knowing where the line should be.

I also plan on contacting some surveyors in the area to see what they might suggest, what the cost might be to just do a simple survey using the known/marked corner to measure from to determine a line that we could agree on and get their opinion on filing an "affidavit of agreement"

What is the declanation in WI? Even if the declanation was set on his compass, if he wasn't using a staff compass and a rodman, he could be way off in 1/4 mile by just pacing.

The property is located in Upper Michigan... as stated in my OP the declination according to the NGDC/NOAA website is currently 4.48 deg. W.. It's about 475' from the east boundary to where the line comes out at the road. We'll see how he replies to my email concerning declination and what type of compass.

As far as the permanency of the paint used for blazing... I know, I still find it on trees from where the east and south lines were marked by Mead some 20 years ago... GREAT, now what do I do if I find out his line IS wrong... do they make that long lasting paint to match the color of the trees that have been painted, including white for the birch? 

Thanks again to y'all for the helpful replies. And let me add that this site is probably one of the best forums I have found on the web... everyone's always honest and helpful with some good-natured ribbing thrown in occasionally and the mods do a great job, especially when it comes to identifying and dealing with the trollers and spammers.

Thanks.

[chester_tree _farmah]

From your paint question - are u saying a forester blazed that new line? Maybe it is different in some states but if he is not a surveyor that would be illegal in Maine. He could legally only use tape unless he found evidence of old blazes and re blazed only those.

[ashes]

From your paint question - are u saying a forester blazed that new line? Maybe it is different in some states but if he is not a surveyor that would be illegal in Maine. He could legally only use tape unless he found evidence of old blazes and re blazed only those.

I'm not sure about the legality here in CA, but the company I work for wouldn't ever paint a line like that. It would be flagged and walked with the adjacent land owner to determine correctness. Or surveyed if an agreement couldn't be arrived at.

[Cord-n-8R]

From your paint question - are u saying a forester blazed that new line? Maybe it is different in some states but if he is not a surveyor that would be illegal in Maine. He could legally only use tape unless he found evidence of old blazes and re blazed only those.

I'm not sure about the legality here in CA, but the company I work for wouldn't ever paint a line like that. It would be flagged and walked with the adjacent land owner to determine correctness. Or surveyed if an agreement couldn't be arrived at.

From what I see (or don't see) I would say he blazed a new line. I don't know about the legality in MI, but to me it seems more a matter of principle... I mean hanging ribbons is one thing, but painting trees without first confirming the agreement of placement with the adjacent LO seems a little iffy. This is what got me when I first saw the blue blazes... must be where the phrase "What in blue blazes....?" came from.
And of course you need to understand this is the U.P. of MI, not ME or CA... mostly wild land, and as I stated earlier, for a large part most properties in the area have not been surveyed other than the original surveys in the 1800's establishing townships, section corners, etc.. That's part of what makes the U.P. such a great place... it's all wild and neighbors for the most part don't squabble about a little encroachment... Hell, if my neighbor wants to bird hunt or whatever or even wanders onto my property during deer hunting, I don't care... I'd probably welcome him and invite him for a beer or cup of coffee. If someone was lost in the woods and came upon my cabin they would be welcome to come in and make themselves comfortable, as long as they respect it.
So this is my dillema... although I've owned the property for 14yrs. I don't consider myself a true 'yooper' but don't want to be viewed as some outsider that just wants close everything up.
No, I just want to protect my investment and paying 1000's of $$$ for a survey would just cut into the return on my investment. I've already spent hundreds for a forest management plan and have had consultations with several foresters since.

I just hope we can work out an acceptable solution.