Replanting red oak trees

[Randy88]

For the last 10 years or so we've been trying to get some red oak tree's back into the timber, which is about 20 acres in size.    Dad left about 20 mature tree's decades ago in hopes of getting some regrowth out of them, but not one tree has grown on its own, so we've started planting some in hopes some will make it, so after about 10 years of trying we've managed to get only about a dozen or so to grow thus far.   We've bought small tree's and transplanted them to the timber, put plastic tubes and first started with wooden stakes to hold the tubes, but have gone to steel fence posts, the wooden stakes kept rotting off and with about a 90 percent mortality rate over the years, either we have to up size the amount we do each year or figure out what to do different to get more to survive.     

Any suggestions as to how to get more to survive, what to try differently, we've thus far been planting them in the spring, tried different height tree's, started with the really small one's, maybe a foot tall, some made it, about five percent maybe, then tried larger one's, about the same percent survived each year, we've tried different tubes, tried watering them more often, less often, not at all.    Now a few are telling us to just plant acorns and try that, others are telling us to plant much larger tree's at different times of the year, we've been told to cut the tubes off shorter, which as of yet we haven't tried and also to plant far more tree's per year, so far we've done anywhere from 25-50 per year and have ended up with about a dozen or so survivors, now that I think about it, its far less than 5 percent survival rate.   

Well this year I've been informed by Dad he's too old and has given up on tree's and now its up to me to decide as to how or how many and pay for it and take care of it if I want to keep trying, even though I don't own the timber, any suggestions as how to go about it with a higher percentage of survival?    Basically what do others do and what percentage survive for you?

The timber has primarily hard maple in it.   

Over the last 30 years I've planted walnuts, to the tune of over 15-55 gallon barrels of walnuts, have maybe a couple hundred walnut tree's now, by doing the math its got to be maybe 1 percent that survived, maybe less if I really sat down to do the math again, we've planted quite a few hickory nuts, and cherry seeds over the years and a few of each survived but basically what are we doing wrong to only get a few percent or less to survive?

Right now we have large open area's after we've cut out dead and cull tree's for firewood, cut out the elms that are dead or dying, so what do we plant and how to get something to regrow in there?

Also why don't the red oaks reseed themselves, I've heard or been told anyhow, that deer eat the acorns, or any small shoot that grows and that's the reason?   Is it the case?

[beenthere]

Your frustration sounds similar to what I've experienced and from what I've heard from others trying to re-establish red oak forests. Natural regen is not working well in the northern red oak forests.

I've had some success, IMO, planting about 1500 northern red oak seedlings in a 5 acre farm field along with another 1500 white spruce 16 years ago. For the first 5 years, sprayed against any competition around each tree and sacked the terminal bud during dormancy a couple years due to the deer wanting to nip them off.
Today, I have a good stand of red oak and a problem with the white spruce growing much too fast for my liking.

[curdog]

How's the competition in the stand and how much sunlight is coming in? If the competition from other species is too much you may need to use herbicide to give them room to grow. I planted some NRO for a landowner last year that were " super red oaks" they were 5-6 feet tall in hopes that they would compete with the faster growing shade intolerant species in the cutover. Seems we had pretty good success with them through the first growing seasonand I plan to walk back in gthere soon to see if they need release . I think we got them out of Tennessee as part of a research project. 
I've decent luck with oaks if you baby them a little. I keep the weeds and other seedlings cleared and have about 50-70% survival. If you can't routinely spray look into squares of weed mat. Cut an" x" in the middle and slide it over the seedling when planted. It's definitely more labor intensive but I planted some stream buffers under the CREP program using this method and they turned out pretty well.

[mesquite buckeye]

Planting light demanding trees in a dark forest will always fail.

If you want more oaks, you would probably do better with some clearcuts. Knock down the competition and get them going before the tolerant species like maple take over. Oaks grow faster than maples if it is bright enough. A couple of acres would probably be big enough. Probably could get some walnut and cherry in the mix. ;D

[beenthere]

Mentioned previously about planting N. Red Oak and white spruce, about 1500 of each, plus a few white ash and some white pine.
Here are some pics over the 16 years these spruce and N. red oak have been growing.

Placed paper pop corn sacks over terminal buds after two years having deer nip them off.

 

Trees after three years, with spruce planted between all the N. Red Oak
 

 
Tree field after five years of mowing between/around all the trees.
 

 
Tree field after eight years... grandson with RC plane who is now in college
 

 
Tree field after 10 years, and the spruce growing faster than expected, or wanted them to.
 

 
Tree field after 15 years, and after removing more of the 30-35 ft spruce
 


 
Leaving just the N. Red Oak as they are getting to be good size now.

[Ianab]

That's what we would call using a Nurse Crop to established the Oak trees. They grow up with them, and shelter them from the elements, without shading them out. This encourages the crop trees to grow with better form, straight trunks, less lower branches etc. Then the shelter trees are removed later, leaving the nice straight young crop trees to grow. The last picture shows young trees with good shape, that are going to produce good saw logs in the future.

Pretty intensive management to get that sort of result, but long term results should be good.

Ian

[Randy88]

Thanks for the replies and pictures, now for some questions and some things I didn't remember to include in my first post.   

This timber has always had nettles in it, that's why we usually wait till after the frost in the fall to do work in it, and plant tree's in the spring before the nettles get too bad.   This is the first year I've ever used chemicals around in the timber, I'd had enough of the nettles and I went around with a sprayer and sprayed a very weak solution of 2-4D to knock them down so we could work and not fight with nettles, it actually worked pretty good, didn't appear to damage any of the tree's, I didn't do it around any of the smaller one's thought, just where we were taking out the firewood and cull tree's/logs.    Now that its mentioned I guess you can call the nettles some major competition each growing season, any ideas on how to eliminate this problem long term?

So what chemicals do you use around the timber that doesn't damage the seedlings?

Next is we do have open area's in the timber, some area's were so bad with garbage tree's and underbrush I went in and went to work clearing it all out, those are the area's we've been planting most of the oak tree's, and I'm needing to something to grow again in those area's otherwise the junk will be back again.   

Next question is do the tubes help, hinder or what's everyone's opinion on them?

What spacing did you use on your tree's in each row, and also between the rows?

[mesquite buckeye]

They generally recommend around 300/acre for hardwoods, however you arrange them.

If this is in the open and oaks grow ok there, seems to me red oaks will beat just about anything in a race. Mine will even promote in crown class as they grow, eventually overtopping everything else.

I am surprised at how the spruce beat out the oaks at BT's place.

I'm wondering if the oaks are at a greater advantage in a warmer climate. :-\

All things being equal, my oaks will wipe out most any other tree growing at my place in MO.

[curdog]

You could use accord / roundup prior to leaf out on your oaks. I'm not sure what type of pre emergent you could use to have a longer effect. I've used oust, but not sure about using it on nettles. I've planted oaks on a few different spacings, 8x12, 12x12 and even out to a 14x14 spacing. The wider spacing was to allow for some shortleaf pine to create a mixed stand. If you can prevent the nettles from going to seed for a few years you could reduce the amount present in your stand.
Our oaks are generally out competed by syp, yellow poplar, cherry, and the dreaded Sweetgum. So we have trouble in our open sites with oak establishment.

[mesquite buckeye]

Our cherries are slowed down by frequent droughts. We don't have yellow poplar or your pines in my part of MO. Maybe just really good site for Oaks. We have to keep opening the stand to maintain walnuts and cherries in competition with oaks.

[beenthere]

curdog
I used Oust as a pre-emergence spray for a few years.

[curdog]

Oust is a really good herbicide. A little bit goes a long way. I spray it in every field I plant and mix it with arsenal for release if the grass is coming back thick.

[Randy88]

Couple more questions to ask, first is what size is the best to plant for red oak seedlings?    Does it matter as far as the percent of survival rate, meaning the larger the better the chance they'll live sort of thinking?

Next one is what I've been told a few times, and was wondering if its just a myth or true, that is, walnuts give off a toxin into the soil that hinders the growth of oaks and some other tree's as well and I shouldn't pant walnuts near any oak tree's?

[Magicman]

Remember that for whatever reason, some seedlings just do not take off and grow.  I planted Red & White Oak seedlings in 2009.  Some are ~20' tall and some not much taller than when they were planted, and they might be next to each other.

And yes, deer will bite the tops out of them and when they get about one inch in diameter, deer will kill them rubbing their antlers.   :-\

[beenthere]

Couple more questions to ask, first is what size is the best to plant for red oak seedlings?    Does it matter as far as the percent of survival rate, meaning the larger the better the chance they'll live sort of thinking?

Next one is what I've been told a few times, and was wondering if its just a myth or true, that is, walnuts give off a toxin into the soil that hinders the growth of oaks and some other tree's as well and I shouldn't pant walnuts near any oak tree's?

Size of seedlings will likely be "what you can find to buy".  What are your choices?

And yes, planting under walnuts is not going to turn out well, and with the oak, planting under any canopy will not bode well for survival.

[curdog]

The most important thing in seedling size is the ratio of above ground to the part below ground. 2:1 is about right.  You need to have a good balance.
Walnuts definitely prevent most other species from growing under them.

[Randy88]

I can buy oak seedlings anywhere from about a foot tall to up to five to six feet tall and everything in between, the larger the tree's the higher the price, and I was wondering if I spent more dollars per tree on larger tree's, that would mean the percent to survive would be higher right off the start or about the same no matter what size I'd plant?

As for walnuts, we've been planting oaks and walnuts throughout the timber at the same time, and I've been told by quite a few that even though they would be the same size when planted, that walnuts put off a toxin into the soil and literally kill off the oak tree's, not from out competing them, but literally killing them off via a toxin.   I've been told this by several dozen people in the last few years and was wondering if its a wives tail or how it works.   

[Claybraker]

As for walnuts, we've been planting oaks and walnuts throughout the timber at the same time, and I've been told by quite a few that even though they would be the same size when planted, that walnuts put off a toxin into the soil and literally kill off the oak tree's, not from out competing them, but literally killing them off via a toxin.   I've been told this by several dozen people in the last few years and was wondering if its a wives tail or how it works.   

Some light reading on the subject.
http://www.warnell.uga.edu/outreach/pubs/pdf/forestry/Walnut%20Allelopathy%2011-10.pdf

[beenthere]

Not a "wives tale" nor a "wives tail"   ;D

As Claybraker points out in his link.

[mesquite buckeye]

The article says oaks and cherries, among others are immune from juglone.

That is also my experience.