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Elm tree's

Started by Randy88, August 05, 2014, 09:12:25 PM

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Randy88

After working all day in the woods cutting dead and dying elm tree's, most under six inches in diameter, for firewood, I looked around to see where the mature tree's are, there are none left in the timber, most went with dutch elm disease decades ago.    So the question I have is, where do the hundreds, thousands or even more of the new growth come from then if none survive to make it to six inches in diameter, fence rows everywhere are full of them, mostly all dead, most all under six to eight inches in diameter.   How old do elms need to be to produce seed?  I've never paid any attention to this till the last few years, but its been decades since I've seen a live red or white elm of any size.   

Then while on the subject, how old do walnuts tree's need to be to produce walnuts?   Is there a place on the internet to go to find out how old tree's need to be to produce seed?

thecfarm

 I know where there are 2 elm trees. I have one at the end of my driveway,probably 16 inches DBH and another one about 2-3 miles away,that one would be 2-2½ DBH. This one is right beside the road,all by itself.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

celliott

Saw a whole bunch of nice healthy American elms on my canoe trip. They are in the Allagash Wilderness Waterway, deep in the North Maine Woods and isolated.
See lots of standing dead ones here (VT). My grandparents had one that got to be 24" DBH before it succumbed. I cut it up for firewood this summer.
Chris Elliott

Clark 666C cable skidder
Husqvarna and Jonsered pro saws
265rx clearing saw
Professional maple tubing installer and maple sugaring worker, part time logger

John Mc

7 or so years ago, I planted a couple of American Elms that I bought from Home Depot. They supposedly came from a couple of trees on the Princeton university campus that appear to be resistant to Dutch Elm disease (they were marketing it as the "PRinceton American Elm). Home Depot had a clearance on them.

They are growing like weeds. They were about 1" diameter X 6 foot high saplings when I bough them, and are now a solid 6+" DBH tree. No signs of disease yet. I expect I'll find out in the next couple of years whether they are actually resistant or not.

John
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Den Socling

I have to wonder where this block of American Elm came from. It's 10.5" thick and 25" wide.



 

Ron Wenrich

PSU campus.  They have some that are at least 5' across.  If they have them, there are other cities that have them, as well.  Are you sure it's American elm, and not Siberian or some other import?

I'd imagine that you don't need a real large tree to produce seeds.  They also may survive as seedlings for a long time and just wait to be released.  I don't think they sucker sprout.

Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Randy88

Ron, I just got my dad down into the timber this morning to look at some, he picked a chunk of bark off and smelled it and looked at it, he said it was definitely red elm, that's what I thought it was, but he's sawed more down in his lifetime and milled more lumber out of red elm than I ever will, so I'll take his word for it he knows what he's talking about.     

That timber has been in the family for over a 100 years, as a kid I remember cutting a lot of elm tree's down for lumber and firewood, there was mainly red and white elm in that timber and all around my area decades back.   So we got to chatting about elms, he had no idea how large or old they had to be to produce seed, but he did say about 20 miles away standing right beside a church there is one large old red elm tree still alive, the only one of size he's seen in at least 20 years, and now that he mentioned it, yes it is there yet today, I've been by this summer while on the way to a jobsite.     I chatted before with the local forester and he said there are a few in this part of the state, but its pretty rare to see any of any size, most make it in that six to eight inch size and die off.   I must have cut a couple dozen today alone in that size, a couple still alive, most of them dead as they come.    Chatted with the neighbors down near the timber, and none had seen a live elm tree in decades of any size, all of them claimed they didn't have a one bigger than six inches alive, couple thousand dead ones in the area though eight inches or less.   

So that brings about the next question, do any of the hybrids survive dutch elm disease?   or is it just an hope they will?    Any speculations?

John Mc

There are a few strains of American Elm that are supposedly disease resistant. The Princeton American elm is one.  I thought I'd heard about a breeding program, to develop more resistant strains, but I may be confusing that with American Chestnut (which does have a very solid breeding program that seems to have met with some success).
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Ron Scott

~Ron

Den Socling

I've dried elm from PSU. It was identified as such. That wood in the foreground is 10/4 White Oak. I dried that in 8.5 days. No checks except in knots.

Ron Wenrich

They used to wrap those elms up in plastic and bury them.  I know the guy that was doing the work.  Then, I said something about using the wood.  He started to check it out, but I couldn't figure out how to buy the logs without tipping my hand.  Next thing I know they're doing what I was going to do.  Lost out on another million dollar idea.   :D
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

CJennings

There was a nice 12" DBH elm a couple towns over from me. I just noticed 2 weeks ago it's starting to succumb to Dutch elm disease. I do see larger elms now and then but most die before they get that big. Some elms do have resistance but they aren't common in the wild. There's a big elm on the UMaine campus in Orono that's quite impressive. It's not resistant to DED, it's been kept alive through treatment.

I like seeing even the 6 inch DBH elms all over the rivers.

mesquite buckeye

A few in my woods make it to 2 ft thick or more before they die. Resistance is coming. ;D
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Ron Wenrich

The elms on the Penn State campus are dying from the elms yellow disease, not Dutch elm.  The campus had over 200 elm trees.  Maybe the yellows is catching on in other areas.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

vtgreen

I've read that Elms start to produce seed at around 15 years, but don't really get cranking till ~40 years. My property in VT which was my family's farm dating to 1900 had huge Elms lining the road, now only the stumps remain. However, we also have a ton of Elm regeneration, but nothing much over 8" before death. Next time I cut one i will have to remember to count rings.
There is a beauty along mainstreet in Johnson, VT that must be >20" DBH which just died this year. This Google Street view image was taken last summer.


Another example is a very large Elm along VT Rt 15 in Jericho VT which is still healthy. Notice all the dead small Elm along the roadside. Every time I drive by this one I wonder how long it will last.

Here is a closer shot.

submarinesailor

I have 4 big elms in the yard that are being eaten alive.  I believe it' the Elm Leaf Beetle that's doing the dirty work.  For years we had these trees being eaten, than all of a sudden they bugs went away for several years.  Now they are back BIG TIME!!!!!!  Need to find someway to get rid of them.

Bruce

Silvanus

"There are some who can live without wild things and some who cannot."  -AL

mesquite buckeye

Those big ones will be the sources of future resistance to Dutch Elm Disease. Some are probably just escapes, but some have some resistance. Every generation where the weak die and the strong live, even for a while longer is a step on the road to immunity. ;D 8) 8) 8) :snowball:
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

SwampDonkey

A very long road. 

Here in NB, the city of Fredericton has an active elm management program. They prune, replant, and try hybrids etc. They took on the challenge when signs of the disease showed up and stil have a good many original elms along the streets. "City of Stately Elms". And yes, a good many have been lost to. But I think there is somwhere around 60-70% survival.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

mesquite buckeye

I remember when the Dutch Elm Disease hit where I grew up in NW Ohio around the late 50's early 60's. Almost all of them died. We had a single tree on our farm that was big and lived for many years past the original infestation. Granted, it isn't like breeding fruit flies or even normal annual crops, but nature will repair the damage eventually even if we do nothing. With a little help, it goes faster.

I think the key in all tree breeding is not to expect big results on the scale of a single human lifetime. That is a kind of patience few of us has, but it can and will happen. ;D

I wonder if anybody has found any resistant ash trees yet.
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Al_Smith

I have few in my woods but they usually don't get any larger than 6-8  inchs in diameter .I've cut a few dead ones and used then for side hauling logs .Elm is some tough stuff .

John Mc

Quote from: Al_Smith on August 27, 2014, 07:50:33 PM
... Elm is some tough stuff .

Also lots of fun if you are splitting by hand (even using a hydraulic splitter is a bit of a pain).
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

celliott

Quote from: John Mc on August 27, 2014, 08:06:44 PM
Quote from: Al_Smith on August 27, 2014, 07:50:33 PM
... Elm is some tough stuff .

Also lots of fun if you are splitting by hand (even using a hydraulic splitter is a bit of a pain).

That's why I used my 385xp "woodsplitter" for the large rounds from a 25" dead elm I dropped at  my grandparents house this spring. Makes it alot easier  ;D
Just quartered them so I could load them into the truck. Will split them further at a later date. If they don't readily cooperate with the splitting maul, they'll get the swede saw treatment again  :)





Chris Elliott

Clark 666C cable skidder
Husqvarna and Jonsered pro saws
265rx clearing saw
Professional maple tubing installer and maple sugaring worker, part time logger

thecfarm

The few times we ever split elm,with iron wedges and a maul,my Father would put it out behind the shed for a year. I can still hear him say,to get the life out of it. It sure did help.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Al_Smith

Like any wood elm burns .It's not the best firewood given other choices .They used to use elm for wagon tongues .The stuff will bend like a noodle where as oak would break if you backed over it with a tractor .

SwampDonkey

There was a 48" dbh American elm on the neighbor before he had it all logged off leaving the big elm exposed. I suspect major root damage occured as all the wood around it was cut tree length and skid around it in umpteen directions. It was a dominant tree above all others, then died a couple years later. So figure it out, I guess. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

101mph

Many moons ago I went to a construction site that my dad was working at and he told me that they had just taken down some pretty large trees (I'd say they were over 20" in diameter) and that I should go there and pickup the wood (he knew I liked splitting the wood myself for our fires at home). They had already sawed logs to "firewood" length so I picked up as many as my pickup truck could hold and took them home.

I got home, ready to split the wood and proceeded to beat the living snot out of one of the logs with my splitting maul for about an hour. I didn't even make a dent in this thing. :o

I was beside myself as I knew I had about 20 more of these things waiting for me. ::) After several more attempts over the next several days I finally gave up and gave them to someone else with a hydraulic log splitter.

I later learned that they were from an Elm tree. I will never make that mistake again. :D

SwampDonkey

We, as in family, and anyone we know that burns wood, wouldn't touch the stuff. Left to rot on th edge of a pasture. Not ony is it tough to split, but firewood realestate is a premium, so I want much better heating wood than elm in my piles. I keep my wood undercover, not the least interested in digging it out of snow and ice. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

John Mc

101MPH -  you can have a lot of fun with Elm... as long as you are not the one splitting it.

Somewhere on here, I posted a story about the time I set up my 240# ex-marine friend. I got myself a pile of White Ash and started splitting it with a maul (I had to be careful not to look at it too hard or it would split itself). He got the American Elm. As a city-slicker, it looked the same to him (the bark looks sort of the same).  He got quite frustrated, wondering why someone 2/3 his size could out-split him. The whole thing was even better because our wives were sitting enjoying a drink and watching the show.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Al_Smith

Every tree in the  woods has some purpose or usage that it's best at .Firewood is not the best usage of elm .

Now what it's best for is heavy duty planking ,like machinery loading planks .While oak is strong it's also heavy as lead and doesn't get much lighter as it ages .Elm is resiliant and does lose weight as it dries out .

You folks with bandsaw rigs might want to carve out a few planks if you ever come across a fit elm large enough to saw .

Randy88

I prefer to burn elm if I can find it, but I won't take the crotches and anything difficult to split, in fact I don't thnk I've seen an elm large enough in the last few decades to even need to worry about splitting to fit into the furnace.   

The trouble we always had with elm boards was they'd always warp or cup as they'd dry, I had some elm boards sawn for me a few years ago for one of my lowboy decks and over time the boards have all warped or tried to bow into a horeshoe shape. 

I looked at the link that was posted here about elms, and at 15 years of age they can produce seeds, I'll have to go out into the firewood log stack and try to read how many rings are on the larger of the dead elms, maybe an eight inch elm would be old enough to produce seeds before they'd die off, so thanks for the information that was posted, I couldn't find it anywhere I looked on the net.   

SwampDonkey

They did use elm here in horse stalls. They like to tread a lot (work horses do anyway) and it would not wear as fast as say spruce. 

I've got no big elms, but the woodlot has a lot of sapling sized ones. Now, even though the range map shows elm everywhere here, they only grow in the settled areas where the good ground is. Where I thin on crown there isn't a single one and no sign of ever being there.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

pineywoods

Elm and sweetgum are no harder to split than any other wood. You just gotta redefine the word split...Normally you think, split it in half, then split each chunk in half etc. Don't work with gum and elm because of the spiral grain. What does work is to split a 2 inch thick slab off the side of the round, rotate 45 degrees and take another 2 inch slab, continue around and around taking off 2 inch thick slabs till nothing left but a small core...Still not the best for firewood tho.
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

SwampDonkey

I do that with white cedar for kindling sticks. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SPIKER

This past summer & spring I took down some of the bigger dead slippery/red elms and had them cut to 1.5" planks.

here are some of the picks I posted prior.



pics of the boards you can really see the spiral grain in these when still wet from saw/woods.







There are still some living Elms on my place but like most other places a LOT of 6~10" dead or dieing small trees with LOTS of saplings that pop up.   They are good to burn in that size range wack em to length and toss in the fire... ;D   Old guys don't like to split by hand but still have a couple Mauls ready to go and wedges too ;)   I find it works GREAT for Sugaring as it is HOT but fast burn so you got to stoke it but can count on fire lasting only a little while.   That means you can stop stoking an hour before you run out of sap to sugar down, once the boil is down to certain level stop stoking let it boil & fire die down to finish level & easily put out the last of the coals when sap is boiled to quitting point...

Mark
I'm looking for help all the shrinks have given up on me :o

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