Quick Processor ?

[SPD748]

Hey guys, quick question. Can anyone list the required valves and plumbing to build a processor which has the clamp, saw motor and saw bar motion cylinders/motor to work from one valve handle pull? I'm to the point in my processor design that I need to decide whether to go with a valve to operate the saw motor and a mechanical (me powered) pull handle to operate the saw bar motion or have it all happen hydraulically with one valve lever pull activating each operation in sequence. I know how much less labor would go into the fully hydraulic setup however I'm not sure how to design/plumb it. Thanks!

-lee

[whitepine2]

 I have mine set up with an adjustable flow divider run with a separate valve. Not a lot of oil is needed for the down-pressure
of the saw. What you also need to think about is a valve that will detente on the return of the bar,saves a lot of time. Hope this helps.

[SPD748]

I have mine set up with an adjustable flow divider run with a separate valve. Not a lot of oil is needed for the down-pressure
of the saw. What you also need to think about is a valve that will detente on the return of the bar,saves a lot of time. Hope this helps.

So, you have one valve which clamps and one valve which runs the saw motor and bar cylinder through a diverter? That's two handle 'pulls' to clamp and cut the block?

-lee

[North River Energy]

Check with Blackfoot Griz.  I 'think' he has one of what you are looking for on his own machine.

[blackfoot griz]

 

 

This is an older pic of the setup for my saw/clamp/saw cylinder. The pressure in and return line come into the manifold (DO 5? need to check) on the bottom. You can see the pressure and return lines from the clamp cylinder, saw cylinder and saw motor.  The only change I made from this photo was to split the pressure line on the saw cylinder.  By the control valve, I mounted a flow control for the saw cylinder.  This way, I can go fast, slow or stop the saw cylinder very easily.
I will try to dig up my paperwork and see if I can determine what the specific components used if you'd like.

[whitepine2]

I have mine set up with an adjustable flow divider run with a separate valve. Not a lot of oil is needed for the down-pressure
of the saw. What you also need to think about is a valve that will detente on the return of the bar,saves a lot of time. Hope this helps.

So, you have one valve which clamps and one valve which runs the saw motor and bar cylinder through a divider? That's two handle 'pulls' to clamp and cut the block?

-lee

No divider but flow adjustable divider different animal I think what you are thinking would require three valves to pull or one valve for two functions. With the adjustable it is set for whatever speed you would need for the saw and yes a separate
valve for the hold down. If you PM me I can send some pic's 

[SPD748]

Ok, after a PM from whitepine, I came up with this hydraulic schematic. Let me apologize in advance for the lack of proper schematic knowledge. I hope the drawing will convey my meaning.

ps - I modified this post from the previous one, adding a different drawing schematic.

 

As drawn, I have a double pump setup flowing 20 and 10 gallons per minute respectively. The 20 gpm pump is plumbed to a Prince autocycle valve for the splitter. That oil flows through a power beyond circuit to a solenoid valve for the saw motor. This solenoid would be activated with a switch of some sort tied to the actuation of the saw bar cylinder valve. Unless I'm missing something, this would allow the cut cycle to occur with one valve handle pull. The return from the saw motor flows directly to the tank, unfiltered. The 10 gpm pump is plumbed to a stack of Prince SV valves, then on to the other functions of the processor. Keep in mind that I'm not looking to build a super fast processor, simply one that will take most of the labor out of log/firewood processing and handling.

As drawn, there is a flow control valve w/ pressure relief plumbed in saw bar circuit to allow a little fine tuning of the saw bar speed and pressure. Again, unless I'm missing something, this design should allow a 'single handle' operation of the cut cycle and allow the log to be indexed and clamped for the next cut while the splitter is cycling.

Does this look like I'm on the right track for a workable design?

-lee

[SPD748]

It looks like the above drawing is a little hard to see. I'll split the schematic into separate drawings. Hopefully that will make it easier to see. I think it's the jpeg conversion that blurs the image.



  

 

That looks a little better.

-lee

[whitepine2]

  Yes much better now I can see what you are talking about didn't
know you had a second pump. Yes it would work but I would not do it this way,if saw stalls would you need to lift bar all the way up to disengage? I would install hand valve on your power beyond line to run the saw motor. Was your intent to run splitter and saw together,
it wont work only one at a time with a 20 GPM pump anyway. It would be easier than having wires run the saw I think too much going on keep it simple. What do you have for power? I am running the bar cyl. with the power steering pump which was on the engine that was in an Isuzu Pup PU. Hope this helps just my 2
cents worth and 10 Years working with my rig.
   

[SPD748]

  Yes much better now I can see what you are talking about didn't
know you had a second pump. Yes it would work but I would not do it this way,if saw stalls would you need to lift bar all the way up to disengage? I would install hand valve on your power beyond line to run the saw motor. Was your intent to run splitter and saw together,
it wont work only one at a time with a 20 GPM pump anyway. It would be easier than having wires run the saw I think too much going on keep it simple. What do you have for power? I am running the bar cyl. with the power steering pump which was on the engine that was in an Isuzu Pup PU. Hope this helps just my 2
cents worth and 10 Years working with my rig.

WP,

I had a talk with Blackfoot yesterday and he mentioned the same thing concerning the single pump running the splitter and saw. My thinking is that only one can run at a time, i.e. I would cut the block and stop the saw then split the block and wait for the splitting ram to return before sawing the next block. While the ram is returning, I could index the log for the next cut as those functions run with the smaller pump. As I explained to Blackfoot, I'm in the drawing stage now so changes are easy and comments, suggestions and criticism are all very much welcomed. I'll have no hurt feelings over someone correcting my errors lol.

I think I have it worked out to control the saw motor and bar with one hand controlled valve and one electric solenoid valve. The solenoid would be controlled with pressure switches plumbed into the saw bar circuit. Pull the bar valve, pressure activates a 'rising' switch which sets a latched trigger and starts the saw motor. Because the trigger is latched, the saw would continue to run until pressure on the return side of the saw bar cylinder unlatches it. If the saw motor stalls, I could push back on the hand valve which would stop the saw motor and raise the bar slightly then pull the hand valve to start the cut again. While in the cut, I could feather the hand valve to increase or decrease the bar motion speed. All this seems to be getting away from simple however it does eliminate the need for two hands to make the cut.

For power I'm going to run a driveshaft from a tractor PTO. I have 45 hp available. The single largest requirement for power is the splitter at 35 hp to drive 20 gpm @ 2500 psi. The PTO arrangement will be belt driven to step up from 540 rpm to around 2000 rpm. If the tractor struggles, I could change the sheave to slow the pumps and reduce the power requirement.

One thing that has come up is the saw motor speed. It is rated for a maximum of 5000 rpm which means it should receive around 15 - 16 gpm. If that's the case, I could go with a smaller front pump which would slow the splitting cycle and reduce the hp requirement. This arrangement would require 26 hp to split and have a cycle time of 7 1/2 seconds (4" x 24" x 3" cylinder).   

Comments?

-lee

[whitepine2]

  I would not cut back on the pump you are going to need all 20 gals
and more to split. What size is the piston. If you are going to use the PTO you might think about a pump that drives direct from the PTO
shaft rather than playing with belts. They work extremely well and are made to drive through the pump so as to drive a second pump
if necessary.I don't know if they make a two stage PTO pump or not
this would be ideal for the splitting piston if they did.
   I still think a separate valve for the motor possibly with a detente
don't know if this would work but valve still works by hand anyway.
You will need all the power and more for the saw it will stall when in big stuff and more control with two valves when in wood saw will
be going foll bore all the way unless cutting limbs,small stuff.
   I would go for a 28 GPM two stage pump dedicated to the splitter
this would allow you to keep on advancing and cutting and splitting
it's what I plan on doing. Anyway you can save time is a great advantage I keep adding and changing things it don't take too much to add time like a detente on the return of the bar gust hit it and forget it valve popes back to center only a few seconds but adds up at end of day. Well enough for now something for you to ponder about. W P

[Ivan49]

 Are you planning on running your tractor wide open all the time? That will burn a lot of fuel if you do

[SPD748]

Are you planning on running your tractor wide open all the time? That will burn a lot of fuel if you do

Right now I'm sizing the pumps so that the tractor could run at 1800 engine rpm which puts the PTO at 500 rpm. It should burn around 2 gallons per hour at that speed.

-lee

[SPD748]

So,

I just got back from looking at a John Deere 4.5 liter power unit. It came from a leaf vacuum truck that was sold by the city where I work. It's current owner thinks it is around 60 - 75 horse power. It comes with a clutch and 4 groove sheave.

This can of worms just got a little bigger lol

-lee

[beenthere]

That's a handful..  This one?
Deere Powertech 4.5 l

Bet you can handle it..  8)

[SPD748]

That's it. It's complete on a skid with a radiator, starter, etc... I'm going to check the maintance records on it tomorrow morning. Wish me luck.

Edit: I just found some specs that say this engine should burn .4 lb/hp-hr at 1800 rpm making ~60 horse power. That works out to 3.4 gallons per hour at a full load. I can't imagine the engine would be at a constant full load so I'm thinking that's a worst case scenario burn rate.

-lee

[whitepine2]

   Thar you go now you are talking hook that baby up to a few pumps
and do it right,no substitute for power you wont be sorry.

     WP

[blackfoot griz]

The plot thickens!

If you go the route of the powerpack, I would highly recommend reconfiguring so you can cut and split at the same time. Initially, you were going to cut--then split--repeat. With the sheave and belts you can dial in rpms for the pumps you use.

You're sure trying to hit a moving target!! :D

[SPD748]

The plot thickens!

If you go the route of the powerpack, I would highly recommend reconfiguring so you can cut and split at the same time. Initially, you were going to cut--then split--repeat. With the sheave and belts you can dial in rpms for the pumps you use.

You're sure trying to hit a moving target!! :D

This target is moving so fast that I'm up at 4:30 am thinking about exactly how to go about hitting it lol

-lee

[SPD748]

It looks like the deal for the power unit is going to happen on Monday! I'm pretty excited to get this beast home and cleaned up.

blackfoot,

I'm re-drawing my schematic to include a third pump. I think I'll have plenty of power ;D

-lee

[SPD748]

Ok guys, yet another draft of a hydraulic schematic. This whole power unit thing has thrown me for a loop. In the end, I think it will work out for the best. I'm looking at a three pump setup with the splitter, saw and support functions all having their own circuits. The power unit has an SAE A, two bolt pump mount integrated into the front engine cover so I think a 28 gpm, 2 stage pump will bolt up there. The double pump can be direct driven from the bell housing. 

  

  

 
It's looking like I'll need 3 pick ups and 4 returns in the tank. As I understand it, the saw motor should be returned to the tank, unfiltered. Moving this much oil (around 55 gpm total), what size tank would I need?

-lee

[North River Energy]

Lee,
The case drain from the saw motor should go straight to the tank without restriction, but you should probably filter the saw return.
Unless the manufacturer specifically says otherwise. High speed=wear=particulates.

You have plenty of HP available, so there is no need for a two stage pump on the splitter circuit.  A two stage 28gpm will probably cost more up front than a simple gear pump, and probably slow production as it shifts up and down.

Three pumps is definitely better than two.  The point of building a processor, I think, is to save effort and make more effective use of one's time, which suggests simultaneous operation of several machine functions.
Given the size of the power unit, you may want to oversize the pump capacity slightly, with the assumption that the engine can be run below it's governed rpm. 

The general rule on tank capacity is equal to or greater than pump capacity, but you can go a bit smaller if you use a cooler, or if you don't plan on running constantly.  More fluid will take longer to heat, but also take longer to cool off on it's own.
'Oversized' filters won't add much to the cost, and will reduce flow restriction/heating.
Similarly, use larger hoses, fittings, and ports when possible.

If at all possible, find someone (or several someones) locally with a processor, and beg a few hours of run time.  Make a list of all the pros and cons of operation, then use that data to guide your own design process.

Subtleties of material flow and ergonomics aren't always obvious in the abstract, and you don't want to invest all the time and materials to find that you could have maximized the effect with one or two minor design changes.

Take your time, do it right.

[blackfoot griz]

Agree going with 3 pumps. 1 pump dedicated for the splitter. 2nd pump for the saw motor, saw cylinder and clamp. The 3rd pump for the live deck, feed trough and conveyor.

Now comes the headache of trying to calculate what flow/psi combination for each pump and where to start...it gets tricky because not all functions run at the same time.

You stated that you can bolt a pump up to the front end.  If this is off the crank, you might need to get a counter clockwise pump for that spot.

Lee--here's a curveball:

On pumps two and three my recommendation (for what it's worth) would be to get a combo pump with a common suction line in and two pressure ports out. Each section of this can be optimized for each function.  You might consider running a CCW double 2 bolt A pump off the front end. Once you determine what RPM you're going to run the powerplant you can get the double pump dialed in.  Then on the output shaft end you have a lot more options to mess with sheave sizes etc to get the splitter function dialed in.

Like NER stated, the fluid capacity should be = to or greater than the the pump capacity based on everything running constantly. But, on a processor, not every function runs at the same time. On my processor, a have 2 -15 gpm  pumps @ 1500 psi and a 28 gpm 2 stage pump which would = 58 gpm total theoretical flow.  I have a 40 gallon tank and running the tar out of that thing in 95 degree heat, the hydro temp got up to 165 degrees with no cooler.

Did you get the powerplant yet?

[SPD748]

The engine has what appears to be a small(ish) pump mounted on the rear of the timing cover now. I don't know what it's specs are at this point. It would be nice if it would flow in the 10 gpm neighborhood but we'll see. After some research on fuel consumption vs engine speed and longevity, I think I'll set the pump(s) up for a 2400 rpm which is the engine's high idle speed. If it was designed to run that fast, I don't see a need to slow it down.

At this point, I know I need ~10 gpm for the support functions of the processor, ~15 gpm for the saw motor and ~25+ gpm for the splitter.

Does anyone know of a source for a 5" diameter x 24" stroke cylinder that's over 2:1 ratio? That is, I'd like to find one with a +3" rod (faster return stroke). All the Prince cylinders are at best 2 1/2" rod. A 5" cylinder with a 4" rod would be GREAT! ;D

Though a large rod cylinder isn't necessary, it certainly would help reduce the cycle time.

-lee

[North River Energy]

If you can't find any numbers on the pump, you can usually get a pretty good idea of capacity by looking at the size of the ports, and also the shaft.  Might also want to check the drive ratio to see if it is over, under, or 1:1 off the timing gears.
Odds are it's in the 10-15gpm range, for intermittent service, given the drive arrangement.

As of a few years back, both Multitek and Built-Rite would sell you one of their respective splitting cylinders.  I got quotes from both prior to finding one from Surplus Center that was close enough for my application.
Don't recall the exact measurements, but I do know the bore to rod ratio was very favorable (3x4?).  The pricing was more or less commensurate with a custom built cylinder+dealer markup.