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Concept Log Turner for Horizontal Band Mill

Started by Alligator, July 31, 2014, 12:17:06 PM

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Alligator

I'm always tinkering with ideas. look at this and give me some feedback. It's a bi-directional log turner, that mounts in the frame pulled with hydraulics and engaged with hydraulic cylinders. You won't hurt my feelings.

I worked with and around  sawmill designers my whole life, I understand not all ideas are good ones. There was a old designer named Alto Barns in Dothan Al. when he showed my father his first sash gang daddy told him to call the junk man to come get it.

I'll throw ideas out from time to time. 
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Okrafarmer

In general concept, I think it looks like a good idea. You might consider including some sort of a parallel linkage device to keep the "V" centered vertically as it goes up and down. Or else have it such that the whole works holding the V can also be tilted left to right (per your drawing).

I hope you have filed your provisional patent on this. You've gone to a lot of work to be showing it in public without protection.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Alligator

I don't care I hope someone builds it. I'm not in the sawmill machinery design business. Just like to throw ideas out. Hadn't thought about stabilization. It needs something?
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drobertson

I think it is a good idea, it seems like it would be a more uniform way of rotating the log, reducing damage to cant faces,  maybe even take some of the stress off the back stops on bigger and heavier logs.
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

york

Hi,i do see a problem with this design-the log will be in the center as it is turned, out from the post or back stops,so not sure how you would get the open face pushed plumb up against the back stops..........
Albert

Okrafarmer

Quote from: york on July 31, 2014, 01:37:34 PM
Hi,i do see a problem with this design-the log will be in the center as it is turned, out from the post or back stops,so not sure how you would get the open face pushed plumb up against the back stops..........

On Woodmizer sawmills, that problem would be taken care of with the log clamp, which is separate from the turning system.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Lumber Grader

Wow Alligator! Folks like you generously sharing ideas make Forestry Forum GREAT!!!
I have always known, as most folks do, that a real weak point in small portable mills is the time wasted, not in the cut. The log turner is one of those weak points. I know a guy that designs and sells equipment for the large high production hardwood mills. I am going to get him to look at these blueprints and see what he thinks. Thanks again for sharing your ideas and I believe that a GREAT Log Turner for small portable mills may one day be born on these very pages of the Forestry Forum! 

Alligator

It's not a fully fleshed out idea, as Okrafarmer pointed out it needs horizontal a stabilization component. I'm just throwing an idea out. I've watched a lots of video of hoz band mills saw and the log turning is a weak point. They mostly have one that works, but kinda klunky. I grew up in a production environment, where you looked at every turn, every line, every log, because it translate into bdft at the end of the day, week, month. If you get an extra board per log, an extra log per hour, $3 a board 30 logs an per hour, 8 hours a day, 52 weeks a year. $303,825.60 8)
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Okrafarmer

I know log turning is a big slow-down on my LT-40.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Alligator

For 20 years give or take I would do every job in our mill (10 job stations) an hour or 2 a month. My job was to figure out how to make each job as easy as possible. (you can only take so much work out of a sawmill) 20 years on I can still see the mill run in my mind and think of ways that I didn't see then to make it more efficient.
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biggkidd

  I think it looks pretty darn good. But I have never milled a log. YET! Working on building a bandmill now. Thanks for sharing.  8)

Larry
 
Echo 330 T, Echo 510, Stihl Farm Boss, Dolmar 7900, Jinma 354 W/ FEL, & TPH Backhoe, 1969 M35A2,  1970 Cat D4
Building a Band Mill  :)

BCsaw

Looks like a great plan. A second cylinder, one for each arm and the ends anchored to the mill would take care of the stabilization. Stay with it. This looks like a winner.
Inspiration is the ability to "feel" what thousands of others can't!
Homebuilt Band Sawmill, Kioti 2510 Loader Backhoe

redprospector

Hmm. I looks like a good concept, but I'm of the KISS philosophy.
Wouldn't two wheels like they use on a debarker do the same task without all the heavy chain and sprockets of the double chain turner?
Just thinking out loud, or in type, or something like that.  :D
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

bandmiller2

Gator, as BC said a separate cylinder for each side that could be used separately would allow you to turn and tuck the log agenst the stops. I wonder how your design would work with a steel sprocket in place of the chains to turn the log. Patent pretending. your going to have to try it. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Ron Wenrich

I think I've seen this concept on another piece of equipment.  I can't recall what it was.  Helle put an onboard log turner on their carriages, I believe. 

Seems to me you would have to have two of them, as it would be hard to center the weight with just one.  Irregular shaped logs would create a problem with just one.  I also wonder what sort of hydraulics you would need, and can you get enough from that type of mill.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Alligator

I don't have the facilities to chase this. I just threw it out in hopes someone could improve and use it. I have about 3 projects going and the money for 2. The primary one is to get my 60 x 60 barn / shop completed. Probably in 5 to 6 years I might have time to put into this.

If you look at the side view it is actually 2 sets of these scissor turners to give balance of the log. It won't work with just 1. Yea, there all kind of variations off the 2 sided turner approach. It gives down turn on one side and up push on the other. You are actually attacking the log from 2 sides which makes it behave a bit better. It is trapped between 2 forces moving it in the desired direction.

I like looking these problems. I just don't have the resources I had when we had the mill to work metal. No lathe, welder, extra steel lying around. :) I am happy to help anyone that wants a drawing. I have solves computer problems until I'm tired of them. This is metal mental exercise.

I have a fish scaler 3/4 finished a lathe I need to finish rebuilding and a little shop 12 x 20 with tool flowing out it's so full. Hence the 60 x60 I'm working on, and I've only been fishing twice this summer. :)
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Alligator

I saw the Helle carriage before. They trap the log between the head block and the turner. Sorry I didn't flesh out the side drawings
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drobertson

Maybe if the turner was on a slide? allowing a movement in and out towards or away from the backstops then the issue of location could be solved,  just an idea.   I've seen a few log turners, it seems that many rock the carriage, and bed design is equipped for this type of load.   all said, a very possible design,
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

BCsaw

Keep tossing this around.....I hope to add hydraulics to my mill eventually! :D :D
Inspiration is the ability to "feel" what thousands of others can't!
Homebuilt Band Sawmill, Kioti 2510 Loader Backhoe

Okrafarmer

I have a good friend who is a mechanical engineer and independent inventor. He has several patents that have sold, and several that are being looked at right now by companies. If you wanted it worked through and drawn up professionally, he could probably do it for a fee. Then again, so could many other people out there.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Alligator

I have too many irons in the fire. Thanks! I was just hoping someone would take it and try it. I really appreciate it. I just have too much other stuff going on. Labor day my wife is going home to Ukraine for 3 weeks. I am nervous as a long tail cat in a room full of rocking chairs about that. I have 3 weeks back log of work. I have had a bad ankle for 3 weeks. (one reason I had time to sit and draw) You guys are great. If someone wants to use it, do so.It is not the first or last idea I'll have. It is really incomplete as far as mounting and stabilizing it.
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5quarter

Hi Alligator. I think the Pezzolato sawmills and other builders in Europe have been using the bidirectional design for years. The ones I've seen have at least 2 as Ron mentions. Also, I have seen them used with moveable log stops on both sides that both center and clamp the log, as well as 2 adjustable blade guides. Not sure why they have not caught on much over here. I sure would like to hear some feedback if someone like yourself decides to build it. I can see how it would work well with the first couple cuts, but it seems the chain might tear up a cant.
What is this leisure time of which you speak?
Blue Harbor Refinishing

stefan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dxir7ucToZA&feature=player_detailpage

Here is one of the mills that uses this type of turner.
Not to mention a "few" other options aswell.

ozarkgem

does anyone here dress like that to saw lumber?
Mighty Mite Band Mill, Case Backhoe, 763 Bobcat, Ford 3400 w/FEL , 1962 Ford 4000, Int dump truck, Clark forklift, lots of trailers. Stihl 046 Magnum, 029 Stihl. complete machine shop to keep everything going.

Alligator

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Okrafarmer

Quote from: Alligator on August 01, 2014, 07:07:09 AM
Stefan - I can't see your picture. Please repost.

It's a video, not a picture. For some reason you must not be set up to be able to watch it. In case it helps, here is the direct link to the video on You-tube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dxir7ucToZA
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Okrafarmer

Quote from: stefan on August 01, 2014, 04:09:33 AM
Here is one of the mills that uses this type of turner.
Not to mention a "few" other options aswell.

Holy crumbunnies! I feel really insignificant now. I dare not ask how much that sawmill costs, but it looks bigger, tougher, and more productive than any portable mill we have in the states. On par with many indoor models.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Alligator

All that mill needs is an off bearing belt to move the slabs and lumber away some where else to be sorted, trimmed and stacked. 
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Okrafarmer

I looked at their website and there is an off-bearing accessory available.

It was hard to find, but I also found a price for the mobile model of $188,500 Euros new, before Value Added Tax. (They are made in Austria). Not sure what the exchange rate is right now, but that puts it costing in the neighborhood of 3 X the price of an LT-70.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Magicman

Plus he has a golly-whopping umbrella !!!   smiley_sun
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Alligator

Real fancy piece of machinery. It still looks to take about the same amount of time to saw a line. Maybe a little faster turning logs. :) I count a line from the time the saw hits the log until the next time it hits the log. You start timing from the first cut until the first cut on the next log. Divide number of lines by number of seconds you get seconds per line SPL. You get seconds per line. Take your bdft from the log divide by seconds you get seconds per bdft. SPBF. Kind of like some of those wired baseball stats. But, it gives a index of production in a short time span. I bet that mill doesn't have a high enough SPL to justify the increased cost of the mill over say a LT40HD.
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Okrafarmer

Quote from: Alligator on August 01, 2014, 11:52:13 AM
I bet that mill doesn't have a high enough SPL to justify the increased cost of the mill over say a LT40HD.

Well that's comforting! But it did look to me like it mills faster than an LT-70. Some of the 70 owners could comment on that.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Ljohnsaw

Quote from: ozarkgem on August 01, 2014, 06:32:22 AM
does anyone here dress like that to saw lumber?
+1  :D

Also, tough hands - taking that blade off without gloves?  How many of you would make use of the cross-cut feature?  Neat but is that a time saver?
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Okrafarmer

Quote from: ljohnsaw on August 01, 2014, 12:06:36 PM
Quote from: ozarkgem on August 01, 2014, 06:32:22 AM
does anyone here dress like that to saw lumber?
+1  :D

Also, tough hands - taking that blade off without gloves?  How many of you would make use of the cross-cut feature?  Neat but is that a time saver?

I would frequently use the crosscut feature if I had it.

I don't dress like that, but maybe if I lived in Sweden I would.

I never wear gloves. I always handle Woodmizer blades without gloves. I get little prickles sometimes, but never anything that still shows the next day. I--hates--gloveses. Times when I do cut myself is every once in a while when sharpening a chainsaw.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Magicman

Log/lumber/blade handling, sawing, whatever, I always wear gloves. 
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

stefan

Quote from: Alligator on August 01, 2014, 09:02:30 AM
All that mill needs is an off bearing belt to move the slabs and lumber away some where else to be sorted, trimmed and stacked.

I watched some of the other videos they have, and it seems like they have solutions for that to.
What can you say, other than that this is a pretty impressive piece of machinery??

Alligator - Thank You!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy6L-2ZD_6Y&list=UUcXLiSa7FRJ6aliiqf7JIKA&feature=player_detailpage

Alligator

I should, but I have trouble getting one on my right hand.

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starbits

If my hand was pregnant I don't think I would wear a glove either.   :o

Starbits

Alligator

I shot it with a 12ga. shotgun when I was 16. I'm 60 now. They cut 3 sides of a square from my lower  abdomen folded it back and sewed it to my hand, so the blood would feed from the flap.  When I shot it I weighed 175, played football, lifted weights, an athlete. That pregnant hand was pretty flat. Because the skin came from my stomach, as I worked my way to 325 lbs my hand got fat along with my stomach. Gloves don't fit well any more neither do my pants. :D
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POSTON WIDEHEAD

If the glove don't fit you have to acquit.  :)
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

Delawhere Jack

I laughed out loud at 5:00 minutes into that first video.

"Off bearers? We don't need no stinkin' off bearers!!!!"  :D

Very cool machine........ But lets see him coil one of those bands .....  ;D

Delawhere Jack

Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on August 01, 2014, 05:49:22 PM
If the glove don't fit you have to acquit.  :)

You are just wrong, in so many ways... :D

backwoods sawyer

Quote from: Delawhere Jack on August 01, 2014, 07:32:53 PM
Very cool machine........ But lets see him coil one of those bands .....  ;D
Sure would not mind giving it a test drive to see if the SPL work out ;)
as far as coiling saws, It still folds up, we would fold and invert 12" double cut 42' saws, just got to learn the dance 8) kinda like changing saws on a set of quads, took 7 min to change one or all four, it was like a ballet from shut down, to lock out, all the way  thru taking saws off the wheels onto yokes taking them out the top, placing them on carts and sending them to the filing room while fresh saws are placed on the yoke and lowered into place, slipped onto the saws (three sets of hands on each saws) to spinning the saw unlocking and firing up all four mills and sending the first log thru to verify all saws were running true.
Sure I would like fold one of the saws for the mill after a day sawing ;D bells and whistles do help production :P

As to the turners the Cooks mill would be a good candidate to test them out on as it has plenty of hydraulic flow, and since it already has two turners just add a third and fourth turner mounted 180* from the original two, could even be mounted in seperate holes close to the oposite one.

I like the V turners, we had a set of fixed vees that picked the log up spun it around to where you wanted it chucked it in the carrige, next, but that takes about 6' 5' (lot of head banging in that hole) of space under the deck to operate and a good many tempo wires to snag. 
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

Alligator

Quote
As to the turners the Cooks mill would be a good candidate to test them out on as it has plenty of hydraulic flow, and since it already has two turners just add a third and fourth turner mounted 180* from the original two, could even be mounted in seperate holes close to the oposite one.
I am hesitant about approaching The Cooks. I live less than 10 miles from them. They did our trim saws in the late 70s and 80s. Nice people, just kind of a local thing. Their operation is right on the edge of 400 acres that was our family farm, until my Grand Ma died in 1986. Our operation was winding down as theirs started winding up.
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backwoods sawyer

Got ya.
Was out looking at the open frame and straight turner arm on the AC-36 that spits big logs off the back side ::) It would be a big improvment in its log handling. Sure like the curve style of the WM turner over the straight style for handling big logs, but it could stand to be 6"-8" longer along with taller dogs when it comes to spinning them big logs.
The double V style turner just does not spin out and get stuck like a single arm does either, we ran a sharp chain in loop with a hydraulic motor below the center of the V with an idler below it, the chain ran on a rail around the rest of it. Got away with a sharp chain rather then a lug chain because the blocks were debarker.
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

bandmiller2

That mill does everything but pack your lunch, has to be very costly. Gator. have you looked into the piney woods turner/clamp on this forum.?? On my homebuilt bandmill I used a two plain clamp/turner that has worked fine for years. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Alligator

Quote from: bandmiller2 on August 03, 2014, 07:45:47 AM
That mill does everything but pack your lunch, has to be very costly. Gator. have you looked into the piney woods turner/clamp on this forum.?? On my homebuilt bandmill I used a two plain clamp/turner that has worked fine for years. Frank C.

No, that's the first time I had seen Pineywoods turner. It looks good. I like tinkering with ideas. I grew up with a whole pile of it. When we went on vacation we had to stop at every mill along the way and see how they did things. Dad always had a scratch pad to make little notes, and drawings. He didn't need much, maybe a couple of dimensions and a sketch.

He looked at a couple of lumber stacker designs and got with a local machine shop and they took his sketches and built and installed it. There wasn't much complicated about it, just a machine to allow 3 men to sticker about 10 times as much lumber in a day.
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bandmiller2

I think Rube Goldberg used to be a sawyer. Its hard to come up with anything new most has been tried many years ago. Before I set up my mills I visited every mill I could find no two were alike and I learned a little from each, some what not to do. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Alligator

Quote from: bandmiller2 on August 03, 2014, 08:27:41 PM
I think Rube Goldberg used to be a sawyer. Its hard to come up with anything new most has been tried many years ago. Before I set up my mills I visited every mill I could find no two were alike and I learned a little from each, some what not to do. Frank C.
Yea, Frank I agree. I know most everything has been tried in one way or another. When I was looking at Pineywoods Turner, I was thinking about his small pipe hydraulic tank. When  for Windham Equipment Co.
Mr. Paul went absolutely in the opposite direction. He made the frame of the carriage track from rectangular tubing and the whole frame was the hydraulic tank. When I ask why? (at the time I didn't know much about hydraulics) He said it was for cooling the oil. Since looking at the band mill world, I was thinking that might not be a bad idea for a band mill track and put 1/2 inch plugs along in pairs. That would like having 110 plugs in a house. just add a solenoid valve and add an implement.
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