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Tractor forwarding trailer vs. older skidder

Started by mf40diesel, July 27, 2014, 07:52:13 AM

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mf40diesel

May seem like a dumb question to some, and waaay too early really to be concerned, cause I don't yet have the funding.... but to help my dreams.  Wife and I are in the process of buying a new place, really nice farmhouse in western maine, it has 117 acres with it... my long time dream.  I plan on heating as much as possible the house with wood, obviously cutting it myself.  I have a 2004 Massey Ferguson 461, 4wd tractor medium frame 65hp with a farmi winch.  Tractor is about 5700lbs.  Initially I will skid wood with the winch, the twitch's are gonna be really long (long story short, but the land is more or less bisected by a very wet meadow, uncrossable with equipment I'm guessing about half the acreage is good wood, mixed hardwood with quite a bit of pine/hemlock/fir and spruce) the near half flat, the far half against a mountain so steep parts for sure.

While I fully love sitting on my tractor, eventually I am guessing twitch's will exceed 30 min one way as I will have to go all the way around the meadow.  Down the road, as in a couple years a friend has a TJ 230(E, I think) it's like a ~81 with a 4-53, I have watched the skidder my whole life, and love it.  I bet I could get it for around 15k... I was curious what a forwarding trailer would run that would be paired with my tractor.  I am assuming in the 25k range.  Seems to me pros are, less engines to maintain, as the tractor will be used all the time anyway, wood stays cleaner.  Skidder, despite my love of seat time, would not likely get too much use besides the winter and late fall, the rest of the time will still be the tractor cutting/splitting the wood and hauling it around.

also down the road, after the year's supply of firewood is done and drying I would love to get into selective cutting my softwoods to sell.  I go to sea for a living and would aim to get a load or so everytime home.  Is that feasable?  Would you all go forwarder trailer or older likely cheaper skidder? 

I know this is a "down the road apiece," question, clearly buying the house and doing the initial house purchases kill either equipment purchases for a bit. Just thinking ahead for a dream.

thanks everyone
John Deere 5055e, mfwd. Farmi JL306 Winch. Timberjack 225 Skidder. Splitfire splitter & Stihl saws.

bill m

I know a lot of people will disagree with me but get the trailer. I have run many different skidders but now do all my logging with a 55 hp N.H. tractor and a Metavic trailer.

 
A tractor / trailer combination is more versatile.
NH tc55da Metavic 4x4 trailer Stihl and Husky saws

thenorthman

Lots of folks just use the tractor winches, long skids aren't so bad if your doing it for yourself.  Personally unless you plan on going full commercial logging then a skidder is overkill.

A forwarder trailer is doable, yet expensive unless you build your own.  You'll still end up dragging logs to a pile so you can reach them with the grapples or load them with the front loader on yer tractor so they will probably be dirty anyway.  The upside is you can make one trip with enough wood to make up for a day of skidding with the winch.

If you don't want to go with a loading boom on the forwarder, then homebuilding a trailer is as easy as converting an old hay wagon to have bunks.
well that didn't work

Ryan D

15k should get you a good used forwarding trailer no problem. I would go that route myself. You could probably find more uses for the trailer other than just logging. I have a 230D and a smaller tractor now that I use full time but I am selling both so I can get a setup similar to Bill M's. It may be a little slower in the woods but having clean wood and a neat landing will be very nice.

Ed_K

Maybe think of a hay wagon trailer. A set of pallet forks or as i used for a while,a set of round bale spears.The wagon will come in handy for moving other things too.
I have both, the fowarder trailer is small with only a 12' reach and can only carry 3/4 of a cord. Wished i'd bought a bigger one with 17' reach. Hay wagon can carry 3 cords,20' long  but has to be hooked and unhooked,loaded an unloaded.
Ed K

BargeMonkey

Ive gotta say im impressed with the picture, nice woodpile.  ;)   

mad murdock

Fwder trailer will be way more versatile, will make your firewood getting way more pleasant, and you will find a lot of "handy" uses for the loader once you start using it. I would go with one that has at least a 16' boom on it, any smaller is too small, IMO. Another good feature is hydraulic power to the wheels of the trailer wheels while moving.  I know from pulling a loaded dray with a cat that had a loader, it is easy to get a loaded trailer stuck in the woods, some way of powering the trailer wheels is a huge plus.
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

sprucebunny

Love my trailer. Just about the most trouble free thing I own.


 
MS193, MS192 and an 026  Weeding and Thinning. Gilbert Champion sawmill

g_man

I do about what you want to do - firewood and saw logs from our land as we do timber improvement work. I use a tractor and winch. I would love to have a forwarder and loader but just can't justify it with the quality of wood I have and the amount of work I can actually do. Also my lot is steep, ledgey, and swampy and getting a forwarder around would be a problem.
What I think I would do if I were you is find a place for a landing on the far side of your swamp/meadow and skid your trees to there, avoiding the long skid around. Buy or build/rebuild a good farm trailer that will hold 2 or 3 cord like ed_k said. Buck your trees up on the landing to trailer or saw log size and load them on the trailer with a grapple on your tractor. Then haul the trailer out to your roadside landing or firewood site. Just my thoughts.

Edit: A dumping trailer woud make it easy to unload.

This is my tractor grapple. Has a 1000 other uses too.



 

gg

47sawdust

If your woodlot is open enough to get around with a tractor and trailer/loader it makes sense.If the going is tough then I would stick with the tractor and winch.With my Tajfun winch and 48hp Kubota I can skid a pretty good jag of wood.I do my cutting and skidding in the late fall and winter.A tractor with a Q/A on the loader is a great investment,a grapple attachment is very handy for organizing your landing.
Another thought-If you can freeze up a road across your meadow it might cut down your skid distance.I've had good luck starting out with a 4 wheeler making daily passes and then taking the tractor out.
Mick
1997 WM Lt30 1999 WM twin blade edger Kubota L3750 Tajfun winchGood Health Work is my hobby.

EFR

MFdiesel:  I have a similar situation and went with a skidder.  I have a little over 100 acres.  We have a wood boiler and I cut around 20 cord a year for myself and family.  Up to now, I have used a 40hp 4WD New Holland with a Farmi winch.  Under good conditions (frozen ground, little to no snow, log roads) this combination has worked great.  However, my limitations have been several.  I do all my cutting starting Jan 1 (after deer season).  This last winter, we had too much snow on the ground, kept me out of woods for 6 weeks (I do have chains on all 4).  2, with a tractor, I am stuck to existing logging roads or carefully made new ones (my land is pretty bony).  And three, a tractor will certainly work (evidenced by the prior posters and their more extensive experience), but its not made for logging like a skidder.  I have bent draw bars, bent a leg on the winch, bent the front drive shaft (log jumped up when I ran it over).  I use that new Holland a lot and I want it to last.  State forester wants me to take 100-150 cord off my property.  I just bought a TJ225E.  After spending more than I wanted too, and fixing more than I thought I had too, I'm pulling wood right now (want enough money to pay for new blade bushings and fix fenders). After this, we'll wait to January.  I think I'll keep the skidder when I'm done.  Just easier in the woods. 

Piston

Of the two choices you are looking at, I think a forwarding trailer behind your tractor would be the best choice. 

However, I think there would be a big argument for using what you have, the good size tractor and skidding winch, and using that money for another piece of equipment.  I would imagine a mini ex with a thumb would be really handy to have on that much land, not to mention help out with cutting the logs into firewood as well.  ;D
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

mf40diesel

Well after reading all of these wonderful responses, I think I know what I am going to do.... buy a new Deere 848H..... well maybe not.

I am still torn.  I think what I need to do clearly, is get out and cruise the land alot more to see what I really will have(have to sell my existing house first too! anyone interested in a really nice small log cabin in western maine???) The skidder might then have the advantage as I will see just how steep the land is on the far side.  We shall see. 

As for the soft wood... what kind of money can be made on a load of good saw logs?  Is that a feasible little side business to help offset the cost of all of this stuff?

Thanks, gotta run on deck to work... I am actually typing this from Singapore, funny enough.

thanks so much everyone
John Deere 5055e, mfwd. Farmi JL306 Winch. Timberjack 225 Skidder. Splitfire splitter & Stihl saws.

Piston

Quote from: mf40diesel on July 27, 2014, 05:59:08 PM
ide business to help offset the cost of all of this stuff?

Thanks, gotta run on deck to work... I am actually typing this from Singapore, funny enough.

thanks so much everyone

Shipyard?
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

chester_tree _farmah

Quote from: mf40diesel on July 27, 2014, 05:59:08 PM
Well after reading all of these wonderful responses, I think I know what I am going to do.... buy a new Deere 848H..... well maybe not.

I am still torn.  I think what I need to do clearly, is get out and cruise the land alot more to see what I really will have(have to sell my existing house first too! anyone interested in a really nice small log cabin in western maine???) The skidder might then have the advantage as I will see just how steep the land is on the far side.  We shall see. 

As for the soft wood... what kind of money can be made on a load of good saw logs?  Is that a feasible little side business to help offset the cost of all of this stuff?

Thanks, gotta run on deck to work... I am actually typing this from Singapore, funny enough.

thanks so much everyone

Yes the spruce and fir can be sold and is viable as both pulp wood and saw logs in Maine.  This winter pure spruce pulp wood was fetching more than spruce/fir mix. Probably wasn't worth cutting out the logs unless they were clapboard grade.

The pine grades run from pallet to number one for saw logs and there is a market for pine pulp.

There may be log yard around u that takes  mixed saw log loads like Haynes does up here.

Good luck. If the land is not nice and flat I would go skidder. Not sure if your tractor has ag tires but if it does expect to pop a few unless u r super super careful. Been there done that. :-)

254xp
C4B Can-Car Tree Farmer
Ford 1720 4wd loader hoe

thecfarm

mf40diesel,welcome to the forum. All good advice. Maybe hard to cut a load of logs and sit on the pulp. My father and me would cut some pine here and sell the logs. We did not get much pulp. Last load was starting to turn and the trucker had to do some hard talking for them to take it. I want a grapple for my loader too!!
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

chester_tree _farmah

That is true about old wood. I suggest folks cut in the late fall through winter if it will take a long time to get a load. It can sit for months frozen and be fine.

Which brings up a question for the OP. Will your bog freeze well? If so u run straight across it. :-)
254xp
C4B Can-Car Tree Farmer
Ford 1720 4wd loader hoe

luvmexfood

Everbody has an opinion and here is mine. If your loader has enough capacity for either forks or a grapple and perhaps the majority of the logs you will encounter then I would go that route.

For a trailer I would look at an old 4 wheel farm wagon and modify to haul logs. Saving you thousands over a forwarder trailer. A four wheel wagon would be better than a two wheel wagon since you can drop the tongue, load and then rehook with out any weight on the tongue.

Now here is the bit of caution. A four wheel wagon puts absolutely zero weight on the tractor. Trust me in saying they are not good for descending much of a grade unless you rig some brakes. I once was coming down a hill with one loaded with several bales of hay. It started the tractor sliding and I was lucky to maintain a straight slide. If it had jackknived a certain flip of the tractor. It was one ride I never want to repeat.
Give me a new saw chain and I can find you a rock in a heartbeat.

BargeMonkey


glassman_48

mf40diesel,
I wonder if you having a forester come on your property and could give advice on the value of some of your higher end wood.  You might get enough to put towards whatever purchase you decide on.  If you have a lot of hardwoods, I believe that the guys around here said on average 1 top was equal to about a face cord or more depending on how big the tree was.  One of my buddies had over 100 trees cut and now a lot of the tops are sitting and rotting, he cant get them all out of the woods.  He didnt want a lot of people on his property cutting because of liability issues.  He is in his mid 60's and retired so its been pretty hard on him to move that much firewood.  Good luck and congratulations on your new place.

John Mc

If you are starting out mainly with firewood, have you considered just using a logging winch on your tractor and a regular utility trailer for now?  It's probably the least expensive way to go, especially if you already own the tractor and winch. All you need is a beat-up trailer to use in the woods.

Drop the trees, pull them trailside with the winch, and cut them to stove/boiler length and toss them into the trailer as you split them.  I started out hauling longer logs back up to the house and processing them there, but the logs tended to pick up a lot of dirt and stones along the way, shortening my chain life when cutting. (My wife was also not nuts about the pile of bark and random wood bits in the yard either.) Now I generally cut and split in the woods. Occasionally, I'll just cut to length and bring the rounds home - it gives me a small pile to work on when I'm home and have a bit of time on my hands.

You can get away with that method for a while until you get a good idea of how much firewood you will use in a year, and/or until you are ready to start dealing with sawlogs. BY then you;ll have a good idea of what's involved in getting from your woodlot up to your house, an dhopefully have come across some good deals for used equipment.

If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

mf40diesel

Well thank you so much everyone for all of your comments and advice.  Of course it was probably prmature on my part to even ask, as we don't even yet have the house! But when one is at work (yes, in the Jurong Megayard in Singapore) their tends to be sometime at night to day dream. 

I believe what I will do is pretty obvious at this point anyway, and I think for the future too.  I have a pretty baddass tractor, at least I think so, which should be perfect for everthing I need (need to do a little better guarding and such) however my winch is small, it is a very old Farmi JL306.  I am pretty sure it's too small for the tractor, but will hopefulyl work fine for a few years anyway, and I will try not to overload it. 

I think what I would/should do, is invest in a newer winch, I really like the look of the Tajfun units, never used one, but they seem to be very nice. As said before, I love sitting on the tractor so what is it to me to sit on it longer when hauling logs!?  Plus, even the most cadillac of any of the winches (in my size range) don't even scrape the cost of a skidder or trailer.

As for the "meadow," I dont think even in the winter I can get across it.  Plus, I would be super afraid of getting stuck in the middle and be hundreds of feet from a tree big enough to pull off of!

In any case, still have to sell my existing house first!

thanks so much everyone.. great site.  And seemingly no "trolls," like you find on alot of forums.  You know the guys that have to be mean as heck and be bullies behind their computers.
John Deere 5055e, mfwd. Farmi JL306 Winch. Timberjack 225 Skidder. Splitfire splitter & Stihl saws.

thecfarm

mf40diesel,them bullies do last long on this forum. Jeff runs a mighty tight forum here. Stick around and you will see it.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

John Mc

Quote from: thecfarm on July 31, 2014, 05:21:54 AM
mf40diesel,them bullies do last long on this forum.

I think thecfarm meant they do NOT last long here.  It's one of the reasons I stick around. When someone gets a bit too full of themselves (or full of "something else") Jeff and the admins take swift action.  This is a friendly site, and one I'd no problem with my elementary school-aged  kids reading.

BTW... when you get a chance, why not fill out your profile with some information on yourself.  I see from your original post in this thread that you are from Maine.  We have a fair number of Mainers (Maine-iacs?) on this board.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

thecfarm

John,Can't spell and leave out words.  ::) Thank you. I forgot to say"NOT"
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

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