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Introduction and solicitation for advice on milling as a buisness

Started by Longshot1911, July 25, 2014, 02:06:47 PM

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Longshot1911

Greetings all!

I have been lurking on this forum for a couple of weeks now, reading as much as time will allow.   I was hoping to solicit some advice from the wealth of experience resident here.

I am at the end of a 20 year career with the Marine Corps.  My wife has decided to leave the Army after 8 years.   We have the next 8 months to decide what we want to do when we "grow up".  My entire life, I have dabbled with woodworking/automotive/gunsmithing/metal fabrication.  Overall, I feel I can hold my own.  I have always dreamed of owning a sawmill.  The transformation from tree to dimensioned lumber to finished product appeals to my sense of order in the universe.   At some point in the near future, this will be a reality.

On a much grander scale, I have been exploring the possibility of milling as a second career.  Thanks to a retirement check and lifelong medical/dental coverage, my earnings need not be huge.  I just want to earn a living doing something I love.  Most importantly, I have the full support of my wife.

Please, poke holes in my plan and offer advice as you see fit.

Equipment:  I have a fair bit of savings, and would consider applying for a small business loan if the interest rates are competitive.  My startup budget as follows:
   
   -Wood mizer LT-40 Super -35k new, less used
   -1 ton truck, used- 10k
   -Trailer, used- 2k
   -Forklift/skid steer/tractor, etc, used- 8K
   -Blades, chains, misc accessories- 5K

To be conservative, let's call it 60K. I have spent years wheeling and dealing at farm auctions and such.  I am not stranger to big equipment.   In a pinch, with a used mill, I know I could get the cost down to 30-35k, but I would rather plan for worst case.
Location:  This is where I need some help.  I currently live in the DC area, and I call Missouri home.  The wife and I are excited by the fact that we can move anywhere we would like (this statement will resonate with those of you who have served in the military).  I suppose the question to ask here is "If you could set up shop anywhere you like, where would it be?"

Operation:  I feel that a mobile business opens many doors.  If things get slow, I am not against limited logging.  I would love to have 20 acres or so to pull timber from, plant a managed hardwood plot, set up a landing, and build a shop.  Initially, I plan to be the sole operator, with assistance from my wife as time allows.  Once I learn the area, I would like to hire on 1-2 workers.  Obviously, expansion would depend on success.  It seems to me that a running saw=money.  When possible, I would purchase high dollar lumber (cherry, walnut, maple, oak), cut, stack, and dry (air or kiln, depending on available resources).  Some would be used to make furniture, some sold by the bf.  I would be willing to cut lumber by the hour on site (i.e. the great write-ups by Jim_Rogers and others on this site).  From my limited research, I appreciate the need to canvas the area, advertising on multiple levels, and ingratiating myself with the local tree removal services and loggers.   I also want to avoid "saturated markets", where everybody has a sawmill. 

Expectations:  Working full time, I would like to clear $30k a year.  I am not sure if this is realistic or not.  I would like to grow the business to offer other services (mill work, slab firewood, packaged shed kits, etc.)

In an ideal world, I would find an operating business, apprentice for a period, and buy out the owner.  More likely than not, I will be starting from scratch. 

So that is my half-baked concept in a nutshell.  I just wanted to make an initial introduction and give some background on what I am trying to accomplish.  I will continue to read as much as time allows, and welcome any and all advice.

Thanks again
Matt
10" Petrson WPF, clip on slabber, planer blade inbound!

thecfarm

Longshot1911,welcome to the forum. I'm no help to ya. Some are sawing with a small mill and selling lumber. Some are doing mobile sawing. Might be hard to do both. But you did say the wife will help.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

rooster 58

Welcome to the forum Matt,
               Where do you plan on locating?

Longshot1911

That is one of my biggest questions.  I plan on leaving the DC area.  WV, TN, KY all sound promising. 
10" Petrson WPF, clip on slabber, planer blade inbound!

Southside

Matt,

Thank you and your wife for your service.  I can't help you with the mill specific questions, but I can say from my own experience the number one factor is supply and demand for the finished product, not what you want to do or where you WANT to be.  If you have the very best product and service in an area that has no construction or housing going on it will at least keep your equipment in new condition, but the cash flow will be a bit difficult.  I have made business adjustments over the years for that very reason.  Keep us updated on your progress and best of luck with it.
Again, thanks to the both of you. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

drobertson

It could work, just need lots of logs, and an outlet for whatever you saw.    Some folks make it and some folks not as well.
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

glassman_48

longshot1911,
welcome to the forum, I have a nephew that lives in arkansas, he started building unique types of furniture in his garage, now he has a business.  I am also planning on being semi-retired and doing something similar to you.  I have been contacting furniture stores, fireplace shops to see if there is an interest in my milling wood for them, mantles, big slabs for tables etc.  My brother had a furniture store that he recently sold, our local sawmill that had kiln dried lumber went out of business (big place) and the new furniture store owner already is highly interested in kiln dried lumber from me.  Keep us posted, I am near a large city with a lot of tourism and that helps the local furniture stores stay busy, am hoping I can sell them some wood product.   good luck,,,,,,,,,,ed

Delawhere Jack

Semper Fi, and a Hoorah for the missus. And thank you both.

First off, Delaware has so many portable mills, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting one....  ;)

But seriously, you need to be were the demand is, and where there are trees that can be used to meet that demand. Milling mobile, 90% + of what you mill will be used by the people you mill for, and the few that might want to resell what you've milled will be selling it locally.

I'm based in a suburban area, near a large urban area south of Philly. Most of my jobs are small jobs in more affluent suburbs, mostly for older clients who are woodworkers and have taken down a one or more nice hardwood trees. But my larger jobs are typically in more rural areas, for people who have large wooded lots and cropland. Usually they are milling for barns, fencing etc.

If I had to rely on only one market or the other, I'd be more broke than I am now.  ::)

The biggest challenge I face now is not having a yard to be able to mill and sell lumber. The cost to purchase or even lease an acre or two around here is prohibitive. If I leased something further out, I'd be adding travel expenses to come back to this area for the small jobs.

Reaching potential clients is probably the most challenging part. It will take time to establish a reputation and get you're name out wherever you decide to go.

I take it you're a fan of John Moses Browning?

James MacDonald

Matt, Longshot1911

I am 32 miles south of the Wilson Bridge with a 2 year old TK2000 and would be open to teaching you what I know and let you and your wife start your business experience with my equipment and site, in exchange for helping me start mine. I am a few years from retirement and can not do a career and start a sawing business at the same time.
PM me and I will send you my phone number. Love to talk to you. 
Jimmy Mac   MD licensed as Knot Farm in Charles County

I have same dream as you, a little farther along on the equipment and land and location.... But farther away from doing it full time.  Oh and my wife is sure I am nuts to work so hard and supports me with a sandwich or cold drink.
You should see what I Saw

Timberking 2000, 1964 Hyster FL, Kabota 43DT w/grapple, Case 580C hoe and never enough Tools

schakey

Hello long shot 1911 and welcome to the forum. I can't help you with any info but I would like to thank you and your wife for your service to our country  smiley_clapping.Good luck on your plans and there is a lot of help here when you need it just ask!
Think-Dream-Plan-Do

Cedarman

I recommend seeking out those on the forum that have been in business for a decade or more and are successful and asking if you can visit to learn .  Keep copious notes of your visits.  Learn how they sell themselves if they custom saw, learn how they sell and market their products if the sell a product.

Just owning a chainsaw requires tools, gas and oil jug, 2 cycle oil, extra chains, extra bars.  Welders, air compressors etc make for a long list of items that are very useful to make a small operation run smoother.  One can tie a lot of money in these peripherals. 
Make an extensive business plan.  Revise this plan as you travel and see what others have been successful at and as important what was unsuccessful and why was it unsuccessful.
You will be in business. Keep in mind what are the most profitable things that you can do even if they are not the most fun things to do.
Above all else do not predicate your business on being the cheapest business.
Study sales books and marketing books.
Learning to saw will be one of the easiest things you will learn.
Thanks for your service and good luck on this new adventure.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

joey7319

Well if you come to Tn, The land is cheap and so is labor, because jobs are hard to come by. Unless your near a major city. I used to live in the D.C. metro area and don`t miss it one bit.
30HT25 Timber Harvester Mill Kubota kx 161-3 Excavotor Kubota l235 tractor and a mixed group of chainsaws.

Magicman

First, Thanks to you and your wife for your military service, and Welcome to the Forestry Forum. 

I only do portable sawmilling, so I am of no help with developing a lumber market. 

My suggestion is usually to try to buy something before you try to sell it to determine the market.  Niche markets are elusive, but they have good profit possibilities.  In some areas Eastern Red Cedar or Cypress lumber is in demand.  High end homes in resort areas might be an outlet for slabs, but builders will want them dried and ready for use.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Magicman

We sawyers often think about lumber.  On your startup venture, you might want to include finished products.  There are many here that use the sawmill to make the components for finished products.  That puts you in the retail business instead of the wholesale business.  Chairs, benches, swings, chopping blocks, etc.  Your only limitation would be your imagination.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Cedarman

If you are going to manufacture an item you have to have  cheap labor, machinery doing most of the labor, or make such a unique item that you can get the money out of it for your labor.
China and other countries have cheap labor and can make items for 1/20th the labor in this country, so don't make something that is labor intensive for small value added.  Keep that in mind when looking for something to make that will be profitable.
There is a large amount of manufacturing  in the US so it can be done.  CNC routers, lathes, moulders, table saws, air nailers, etc can reduce labor.
Something material intensive with low labor is what to look for.
For unique, spectacular items showing lots of good craftsmanship can sell well.
Look at what some paintings, sculptures, works of art are worth.
I have seen some beds that are works of art and priced accordingly.
Wooden bowls can command high prices in the right area, but they must be spectacular.
If you go the commodity way, then you have to make lots of stuff in a short time letting equipment do the work.  We can make 90  4x4x8 in an hour when using only 6 and 7" logs on our scragg.
All of what I'm saying is to get you to thinking of a myriad of different possibilities, and pitfalls.
Right now there is a big shortage of cedar logs in the midwest from Indiana, Ky, TN and MO.  Plenty growing.  One opportunity.
Oklahoma has billions of board feet of standing sawlog cedar that is not being logged.  Need loggers and a decent size sawmill there to take advantage.

I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

mad murdock

Welcome Longshot1911, and thank you and the missus for your devoted service to America!  If you have time to put a plan together, maybe you would want to consider fleshing out details once you zeroed in on where it is you want to call home, as this will have a considerable bearing on what your market focus will entail, maybe custom lumber for woodworkers, maybe more custom dimensional stuff or maybe timber framers? Maybe more softwoods or maybe more hardwoods.  Lots of variables that once pinned down would help you to zero in on the specific piece or pieces of equipment that will best suit your intended operation. For me, land cost and availability of good timber would be high on my list. Whatever the case, you will have an adventure along the way, and thanks to this forum, hopefully we will be here to share in the journey.
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

Seaman

Lucas dedicated slabber
Woodmizer LT40HD
John Deere 5310 W/ FEL
Semper Fi

Leigh Family Farm

Since you are retiring, the wife is leaving the service, and you have no obligation to anyone location here is what I would do:

1) Reach out to some of the members here on the forum who are running the sawmill/finished product/logging/welding business you aspire to start. Ask to come and apprentice with them for two weeks. To be clear this translates into "I will come and volunteer at your business for two weeks if you will show me how you operate and run your business". Set up several of these apprenticeships and travel across the country for the next few months.

2) Find a location that I would like to live in and look at getting the amount of land I would need to pursue my chosen career field. Like Delaware Jack said, being close to a urban area can give you a good outlet for your end products and being close to rural areas can give you mobile sawing customers.

3) Study marketing, social media marketing, name branding, business accounting, business taxes, and business operation. Anyone can saw a log, but not everyone can make money at it. Sawing/Logging are only a portion of the whole equation. Get a mentor from SCORE or SBA. Pick their brains until they tell you "I've taught you everything I know". Mobile sawing works for some (MagicMan) but not others, and the same goes for lumber sales. Understand that your market area will dictate what is profitable and what is not. You might want to make nice furniture but the market only wants tomato stakes.

4) Have a Plan B or at least a steady paycheck from your wife or a second job for the first year or so. With the second income from your wife, the financial burden will be lessened and allow you to focus on building your business.

Again this is just my opinion. Ask more questions and then ask some more. The Forum is a great resource of information.
There are no problems; only solutions we haven't found yet.

Longshot1911

Good morning to all!

Many past hobbies of my have led me to participate in public online forums.  I must say that the member here have been some of the most gracious I have met to date.  It was a busy weekend, so I am still catching up on replying to PM's, but to all upfront, please allow me to say thank you.
The comments I have received are just the sort I was hoping for.  I am accustomed to immersing myself in hobbies (cars, bikes, guns, etc.) that are both labors of love, and sometimes turn a profit.  This will be my first foray into an actual business.

After the first round of comments, I have refined my thinking a bit.  As I know others will read, and hopefully benefit from this, I will do my best to share through the process.

1.    I may have overestimated my initial equipment need for the scale I would like to operate at. 
-For a mill, it seems that used TimberKing B20's are hard to beat, and available for under 15K.  As I can weld, rebuild engines, and have some experience with hydraulics, I am not intimidated by the repair/upkeep of a used machine. 
-For a truck, I was thinking "bigger is better", however, it is unlikely I will be hauling a 5th wheel trailer with a load to necessitate a 1 ton.  A good ¾ ton 4x4 should do the trick nicely, and will double as my everyday vehicle
-I am leaning away from a dedicated loader.  I grew up working on/around farms.  As our family plan involves owning land, a good tractor with front end loader and a slew of implements is probably a better investment.
-I am a lifelong tinkerer.  I have a full complement of tools, air compressor, stick and tig welders, jacks, chainsaw, etc. etc.  Other than a cant hook or two, I should have most of what I need to operate/maintain my equipment.
-On second look 25K is probably a more realistic startup cost. 

2.  Market diversity is key.  I have no aspirations of undercutting high output sawmills.  I will saw cheap lumber if things get slow, but I anticipate a market around specialty cuts (odd dimensions, quarter sawn, etc.) and high grade wood.  Life edge slabs seem to be a hit or miss fad, so I will investigate the benefit in whatever area I end up.  High quality figured wood will always have appeal.
   -Selling fine furniture will bankrupt me quickly.  I love to work wood, but I think I will reserve this hobby for furnishing my home, and as inspiration strikes.  I just can't imagine making money on something that takes a good amount of time to do right.
   -Share the story of the wood.  I have an uncle who is a professional woodworker.  His primary focus is teaching the craft, but he builds very high end pieces on the side.  He shared with me a great philosophy pertaining to woodworking.  "People don't pay for the wood, they pay for the story".  In a world of mass produced furniture, for someone to spend the money on a high end piece, they want it to be unique, and to have a good story.  I think it would make for an interesting market to document particularly fine wood examples from start to finish.  I would love to be able to sell a woodworker a stack of aged, figured boards, all from the same tree, with documentation of the tree itself.  How old?  How tall?  Where did the tree come from?  How was it harvested?   Pictures of the landscape, the milling, and the kiln drying.  This is all information that the woodworker could add to as he/she produced products for potential customers.  Imagine being an owner an arts and crafts coffee table with a packet telling the whole story, from tree to finished product.  Now that, I think, would be an interesting spin on marketing. 
   -I like the idea of selling rough-finished wood products.  Swing sets, picnic tables, chairs, etc can all be developed using patterns and jigs that lend themselves to high output manufacturing.  Perhaps this would be a better use of time than cutting inexpensive bulk lumber in competition with the "big guys".
Ok.  Much to think about.

Ponder, ponder.

I will continue to bounce ideas as they come to mind. 

Delawhere Jack-Yes, I am a huge fan of Mr. Browing.  I have built, shot, and compeated with a number of custom 1911's over the past 10 years or so. 

James MacDonald-  Thank you for the incredibly generous offer.  PM sent in reply.  Hope to hear from you soon!

Cedarman- Thank you for the sage business advice.  Much to think about as I write/revise my business plan.

Kilgrosh-  Your post came up as I was typing this out.  Very sound advice.  I will be pursuing the apprentice approach as time allows.  I have already had several generous offers- more than I yet have time to explore.   I will be digesting your post for some time to come. 

To all who replied by PM, I will be replying  as I catch up. 

Thanks again to all.

Matt
10" Petrson WPF, clip on slabber, planer blade inbound!

Delawhere Jack

Matt, sounds like you have the ideal background / skill set to get into milling. Being able to fix the mill yourself is critical. Having a woodworking background, you know how the grain should be oriented in a board and such. This gives you a head start in learning how to mill various logs. Some time searching on the FF will get you up to speed quickly on how to mill various logs depending on the intended purpose. IE, do I cut parallel with the bark or with the pith?

You mention WV, KY, TN as appealing locations. I have one (OK two words), horse people. Where there are horse people, there is money (discounting the people who live in their cars so that they can afford to keep a horse). They always need wood for barns, stalls, fence etc. Guess you could add cattle and dairy folks along those same lines.

A mill, a truck and basic hand tools will get you started. A loader is a Godsend, but for mobile milling, unless it's a very large job, a log arch is more practical to transport.

Once again, the most challenging part is often getting known to potential clients. Craigslist works, but you get a lot of kooks. Newspaper classifieds seem too expensive to me, and probably a bigger kook magnetic than CL. Posting ads on bulletin boards at farm supply and woodworking supply stores seems to work.

I wish you all the best, and if you ever need a trigger job  on a 1911, let me know.  ;) 3.5lb trigger, no creep and breaks like glass. Built from parts dad had laying around. Colt slide, Auto Ordinance factory reject frame (with serial number), and some new parts. Parkerized on the stove.



 

Sadly I'm only average with a pistol. Rifle guy myself, my sis inherited dads pistol skills. Her handiwork at 25 feet with a Colt .25 caliber auto.... She clover leafed the three in the black, the fliers were her husbands.  :o



 

pineywoods

You would do well to read the posts of Tom. Tom Cadenhead , now deceased was one of the early members. He ran a portable sawing business all over north florida and south georgia. Besides being a competent businessman and a top notch sawyer, Tom had an uncanny ability to put ideas and information into written words. On the home page, look up in the top right corner for a box labeled "in rememberance", a tribute to deceased members. Click on Mr Tom's name and it will lead you to a wealth of good reading as well as to Tom's web site, loaded with bunches of very well written short stories. Enjoy
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

tmarch

Thanks for you and your wife's service.  As a retired veteran I can relate to wanting another career, but, don't over do it too quickly.  I currently own a ranch and 3 other business ventures and sometimes wonder WHY.  Me and my wife like to fish, hell I haven't been fishing in 3 years.  Now I own a small sawmill cause my 2 section ranch has some trees that are needing cut and I have to use them or lose them.  At my age that ain't a joke BTW.
Enjoy your time and try to be happy for awhile, then if you still want a mill go for it, just don't make it the most important thing in your life.
Retired to the ranch, saw, and sell solar pumps.

Cedarman

One of the great joys of life is wanting  to get up in the morning.  Doesn't matter so much what the reason is.  Find that reason and life is good.  Having work that you can't wait to get to is joyous.  A purpose in life.  But with anything moderation is best.  Smelling the roses should be a reason to get up too.  Find a rose you like.
Just couldn't help my philosophical rant.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Longshot1911

Delawhere Jack- Nice build on the 1911.  I have been using a Bob Marvel Hammer/Sear stoning fixture for the last 10 years or so.  Gets an amazingly crisp trigger that can be tuned down to 2 lbs, though I typically add a bit more arch to the spring for a 4 lb pull. I have not been a serious pistol shooter since 2005.  About 5 years ago, I entered the world of long range precision.  .260 Remington, .308, .7mm WSM, and .338 Lapua are my four go-to's on a switch barrel DTA SRS.  I played with a McMillion Tac-50 for awhile, but after 3 matches and about 500 rounds I figured I should just load $5 bills into my empty brass.  Your sister looks to be a dead shot!

Pineywoods-I will be sure to read up on Tom's archived posts.  So much to read...

Tmarch- Enjoying life is my primary reason for perusing this venture.  My wife and I currently make very good money. Careful savings and a modest budget have allowed us the opportunity to explore options that we might not have ever considered.  The idea of settling down, starting a business from scratch, growing it, and spending every day doing something I love has tremendous appeal.  Cedarman hit the nail on the head with his follow –on post.
10" Petrson WPF, clip on slabber, planer blade inbound!

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