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[MyLabHunter]

Hello all! I was searching for some info and found your forum. I have a ton of questions but i see i need to do some reading. My grandfather passed a while back and bought 30+ acres in central WI in the 40s just to hunt and cut wood for our stoves. I was running a chainsaw as soon as i was old enough to carry one spending many weeks in those woods over the years. When he passed it all stopped and the land sat. I bought out my family so its mine now. I plan on leaving the wonderful safe southside of chicago and move the family up there.

I was in the army special forces until they finally got me after 12 tours of duty. Turns out i had a price on my head there and did not even know it haha. So with all this time on my hands and the military saying i cant go to war with metal inside my body in a number of places and 3 bullet holes i am going to become what my gramps always said i was. A woodsmen. My loving wife and all our kids are supporting me in my midlife crisis bored out of my mind.

So i am here because to build i need to tackle a job that is pretty big. The property i have is all woods and prime prime hardwoods. The 1st step is clearing a .2 mile road to where i am building. After that i will need to clear about 2.5-3 acres for the house, garage, building, and a place for my 2 bomb sniffing dogs to run that i retired from our team and i kept. After all that i will get into maybe selling some really nice logs and getting a small mill going to keep my hobby funded and the wife out of my hair.

With this in mind here are my 1st questions before i start to read.

Can i get away doing this with renting a dozer and a big dog excavator?

I would love to rent some logging equipment but i doubt i would ever find any for rent. Anyone ever rent before? If so what equipment would you suggest for this?

With the amount of wood i will be cutting should i look into buying a trailer and selling them to the mill? I was going to stack them and use them in my outside wood boiler that i plan to heat all my buildings with. THat might be a big stack. I have no idea how to envision how much wood that really is.

What is the best way to haul logs? Can i get away with a flatbed equipment trailer that is rated for 10k or 14k and strapping them down?

My last question is i need to really learn about types of trees and identifying them? My grandpa tried teaching me and i just didnt want to learn. Stupid stupid me. Can anyone point me in the right direction where the best info is?

Thanks in advance. I have a lot of reading to do. Great info here!

[BradMarks]

I'm no pro at what you are about to embark on, but the first advice - which you will see repeated by others - is hire a forester to evaluate your land/timber. You may have more/less value than you think.  The money spent on professional advice is like putting it in the bank. Reading your "bio" it is obvious you are a hands-on guy, but remember, you do not have to do everything by yourself. In fact there may be some things done better by others. And by the way, there will be lots of FF members envious of your position (I'm one), who can be more specific on your needs/desires and help you out.  Good luck!!

[MyLabHunter]

Thanks man. How do i find a forester? Living in the chicago area my whole life has not allowed me to network as i would if i was near the woods.

I dont want to get just some forester off google. I have no problem spending money to get the right advice. Do you know if foresters can do soil testing too?

I am going to do 99% of the work myself. I ran equipment in war zones where others refused to do it. I really think that was my calling in life. They couldnt get me out of the excavator on my time off. Im not as fast as the operators were but i held my ground. I am willing to spend the 1000s and 1000s on renting the right equipment but they have like 30 different #s for the excavators. Its hard to tell what size and model i need when they have 30 to choose. Same with dozer...D5 d6 d7 i have no idea what that means.

Thanks again.

[BradMarks]

There are lots of reputable foresters on this site who might help you directly or point you in the right direction. They'll come along, be patient.

[MyLabHunter]

I got nothing but time anymore.

[beenthere]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum.
You are going to like it here. Lots of help, and many interested in seeing you succeed at your plan.

The WI DNR is one place to start, as there are local District Foresters that will talk with you about options.
http://dnr.wi.gov/topic/forestlandowners/dnrforesters.html

Another place is to contact the Wisconsin Woodland Owners Assoc. (WWOA) to find others doing much the same as you want to do, and who have many contacts.
http://www.wisconsinwoodlands.org/

General location in your bio will help to point out some of the variety of hardwood species you are likely to encounter on your property.

Enjoy the ride, and thanks for your special services.. albeit sorry to hear they were cut short. 

[Ianab]

Nothing to say you can't hire the machinery and do the work, the forester suggestions are mostly to find out what you actually have, what it's worth, and how best to manage it. They can advise you what's valuable and should be harvested, what will be valuable in the future if left to grow, and what's a waste of space and should be your firewood supply.  Also working out a plan that suits YOUR goals with the properly. Aesthetics? Wildlife? Future Timber Production? Max cash return right now? All valid motivations, but things would be managed differently depending on your wants.

From the land clearing / road building side of things, go with a big excavator. It's the most versatile. Might not be the best machine for each task, but you can build roads, clear building sites, move logs, dig out stumps, load trucks and trailers etc with one machine, as long as it's big enough to handle the job. A heavy machine for the initial work, road, site clearing, logging etc. Then return that and get a smaller machine for work around the building site. Burying cables and pipes, landscaping etc, the more fiddly stuff that a 20 ton machine's not so good at.

Transporting logs? How many and how far? Sure you can load a couple of logs on a flatbed trailer and haul them a couple of miles down the road. But if it's larger loads and longer distances, stage up a truckload and arrange a real logging truck to haul them in one go. Couple of hours and it's done, rather than spending all week shuttling back and forwards.  Again the forester can give you an indication of how many commercially useful logs you are dealing with. There will be tons of firewood anyway from the smaller trees, tops and non-commercial species.

Tree ID? Get a good book on the local trees in your State. It will have pictures and diagrams of the leaves, bark patterns, flowers or cones and other identifying traits. You soon learn the difference between an Oak and a Maple, then you can scan the book and work out exactly what species you have from the 5 or 10 in your area. So you soon figure out the common species, and the oddball ones? You can post pictures in the Tree and Plant ID section here. Folks love those guessing games.  ;D

Buy your own hobby sawmill in the future? Great plan   ;D I don't think anyone on the forum is going to try talking you out of that.  ;)

Ian

[pine]

I agree, definitely get a professional foresters assistance to help determine what you have and help you create a Forest Management Plan (FMP).

I am not familiar with WI state Department of Natural Resources (DNR) or if they have something similar.  We have both State and County foresters and they offer a lot of free help.  That is their job. Our taxes pay for them to help folks.
Nothing against paid foresters because they definitely have their place and purposes as well, and you may move to the point where they can become a requirement even if WI offers free state assistance.  If your state has/offers free help I would start their first, and then move on.

As a fellow former service member I want to thank you for your service and the VA rating that you obviously have or will get for your injuries is small compensation for what you carry in you.

[samandothers]

I just wanted to say thanks for your service!  I feel you will get answers to your questions here.  Then enjoy the fun!

[Ianab]

This is the sort of machine a lot of the local loggers use.



This job they where using it with a skidder as well. But they built skid trails around the steep hillside with the excavator, and used it on the landing to sort and stack the logs, then load the trucks, and push them out of the mud when they got stuck. Multi purpose.  If you don't need to move the logs very far, then just an excavator will do the job. Get one with a "Thumb" as it makes it much easier to grip logs.  :D

Some older pics at a friends building site. Recovering some logs from around the site.


Big excavator can move a lot of dirt.


Gratuitous scenery shot  ;)

[goose63]

I am a nan vet thank your for your service and welcome to this great Forum 8)

[Clark]

I think you have a project on your hands and the ambition to do it. That said, let's ease you down to earth on what to expect...

Central WI doesn't say fantastic hardwood to me but then again, there can be some in places. Is this a sandy site like much of central WI or are you on better ground?

Hiring a forester and finding out what your trees are worth and what your options are with them is the most important step.

When it comes to cutting your own timber I would vote against that idea. There are people that do it for a living and they will pay you to do so on your land. There is more to logging then just operating the equipment. For one, a good logger can remove trees and you'll hardly notice it. How long would it take you to learn that and not skin up adjacent trees, create ruts or bust out the tops of other trees? That learning process and the mistakes made on your land will continue to live with you for years in how it affects the future growth and value of your trees. Not to mention that having a logger do the logging frees you from the financial burden of purchasing very expensive equipment.

There is still plenty of room for you to improve your land. Activities like pruning, pre-commercial thinning, timber stand improvement and planting trees are all very physical things that you could tackle on your own and add value to your trees.

Clark

[WDH]

Excellent advice, Clark. 

[clww]

Welcome to The Forestry Forum.
Thanks for your service. Prior to my joining the USN, I did six years in the Army, including the 3rd Ranger Battalion from 88-92.

[MyLabHunter]

I checked out the links and that is what i was looking for. I have some more reading to do but i am for sure getting a pro in there to get a now and future plan. Is their a way to calculate the amount of wood per acre?

Ok wait a second.....A company will pay me to work on my property? That changes my thought process. I did wonder if i could get a company to do it just for the wood and call it even. That is very tempting. But on the other hand i was really considering logging it myself as painful as it would be during the learning curve and use that money to invest into equipment to make my life easier out in the middle of nowhere. The wife would never let me spend 10k on a skid loader or a backhoe/tractor that i would really like to have. I am going to look into this for sure. I have access to over 100 acres within 10 miles of this property to do what i wish logging wise. I gotta start somewhere and better to learn on my land 1st.

The pictures put up are great! What size is that though? Should i be looking for a certain distance of reach of the arm? Size of motor? I would rather get something too big than something that struggles. The prices are about 1400-2200 a week for med to large size.

The closest mill is about 20 miles so transporting they will be a chore. I thought about the logging trucks and that probably is the best way to go cost depending. Otherwise i will try to get a hookup with a retired army truck and used trailer and do it the hard way. I looked it up and i would only get about 8 good sized logs on there before i hit the weight limit on my trailer. Thats alot of trips.

The property has 100s of white birch trees. Not too popular here but everywhere up north. Is this considered a good wood? Pine is going to be the main wood where i clear the road. The other main trees are walnut trees. I remember as a kid rolling my ankle so many times walking on those *DanG things hidden under leaves. I know a maple leaf and the basics but exactly what type of oak or maple i have no clue. I need to find a system so i can identify them exactly.

I need to get a soil test done by next month to determine where to put my house exactly. Is this something i should use a forester for? Well and septic system locations are still not decided.

Thanks for the welcome everyone and to the vets who set the bar high for us youngins. Your stories still linger.

[Ianab]

The 2 excavators pictured are both 20 ton units.  Reason I suggest that big for heavy work is they can handle whole trees with ease, and move a LOT of dirt in a short time. Yes it might cost a couple of thousand to hire one, but it gets all the heavy work done in that week.

Someone doing the logging and land clearing for the value of the logs? Maybe? Depends on the value of the logs. A clearing job is more work than a simple logging job, so there are more costs involved in the harvest. So if you have $10.000 of logs, and the harvest cost is $5,000, then the logger can pay you $5,000. But doing a clearing job might cost $10,000, in which case you get nothing. Or if could cost $10,000 to get $5,000 of logs. In that case, you need to pay the extra.

What makes me think that this is a practical DIY job is that you are clearing the land for a building site. So how tidy the job is isn't the issue. You are going to bare earth, and digging out the stumps. You have some experience with chainsaws and excavators, so you know you can handle that part.

So what is comes back to is what trees you have, and what the local market for them is. Then you can do the maths and work out if it's worth it to harvest, or stack up and burn. That's what a forester can advise you on.

As to working out how much wood. The usual way is to take some sample plots, measure how big the trees are, and how many you have in a small plot. Then extrapolate that out to the whole area. This is the sort of clever stuff that foresters do.

Ian

[MyLabHunter]

Ian thanks buddy. This is some outstanding info. After i get the kids off to day camp i am going to see if i can get a machine that big.

To be honest i dont really care about the money as much as the experience.

Thanks!

[thecfarm]

MyLabHunter,welcome to the forum. Good advice you are getting. Get your ducks in a row and ask questions.

[Deese]

Welcome to the forestry forum, MyLabHunter 

[MyLabHunter]

After talking with 5 different foresters i found a guy i really liked. Thanks for all the info. I will be meeting my forester at the properties to walk through them and i hope learn a lot. Any tips on what i should be prepared with to meet him? What makes a foresters job easier?

May have a month or so of planning and getting some pros in there before i really start to go to town. Once the prep work is done i will take some pics and videos of my adventure and share with you all for a good laugh im sure. I learn the hard way most of the time by trial and error refusing to quit. Thanks again everyone.

[WDH]

Know your property lines. 

[rasman57]

When I retired from the state police, I too got a 40 acre piece of ground to enjoy and work towards a cabin and National Forest retreat.  It was a former woodlot with a mix of timber that was essentially clear cut 40 years ago and was filled with aspen, volunteer pines and scattered hardwoods high above a scenic river over in Northern Michigan.
    You will find out that what seems like a big piece of paradise will eventually shrink down to several different areas you will work on for different things.  A clearing perhaps, a cabin site, a two track or road, a stand of nice trees and maybe some edges you create for wildlife. 
Makes for plenty of planning and lots of seat time on equipment which is the best part.
     I quickly found it was cheaper to buy some older stuff for me to keep running and restore rather than hiring work done except for dozing in a road through a wet area and trucking in some rock etc.  Any timber harvest I would leave to the pros after good forestry consultation but brush clearing and firewood cleanup as well as foodplots and cabin site clearing are the best part!
    I have done a lot of work over the last 6 years with a 69 Backhoe, a 60 loader tractor with log forks, a 20 year old 4 wheel drive pickup and winch and a couple decent chainsaws and basic tools. Pay close attention to the locals and advice.  Remember you are not trying to conquer the woods but work in harmony with your vision of your place in them.

[MyLabHunter]

My gramps passed 15 years ago and our logging operation for our wood burners stopped when he passed. He was the one that organized and lead. I just found the property last night and got my 1st aerial view. The county web site lists it at 31.5 acres (i had no clue the exact size) and the private road to access it is still there. It is looooooaded with wood from end to end. Their is a house on the 5 acre property next to me that looks 5 years or newer. That tells me power is there!

We had a cottage 15 miles from property and i know the area fairly well and some locals.

I have cut down well over 1000 trees in my life. After i turned 14 i was given my 1st husqvarna (1970s model i still have and runs) chainsaw. Since then i have bought 4 more with my newest as of 2 months ago the 455 rancher. I really feel i have the exp to give this a solid shot. BUT you all are making me do something i never ever do....2nd guess myself. I always trust my gut and that kept me alive in a few situations i should have been shot dead and beheaded.

So with my stubbornness in mind and the fact i do have some experience (nothing compared to you pros) is this really a realistic task to complete in 1 month? I have no job and considered disabled by the gov. Being a solider is all i know and i planned to do it till i was retired. I am really thinking about starting a small logging operation and milling all my own lumber. Is this a dream that wont come true?

By the looks of the forest i have enough wood to last me a long long time. I even have an option to buy the 40 acre lot next to me as well for the future. The nice lady knew my gramps and told my uncle its mine if i want it. So now im at 71.5 acres of puuuure gold.

I cant ever work a 9-5 or behind a desk. I have been offered 4 jobs in the private sector of international security that i turned down. Money is not important to me as much as happiness and family is at this point. I was offered more money than i made in a year to go with a team to the world cup as armed security for people that have too much money. I refused that too. I need to keep busy or my mind will get the best of me. I dont need to make 100k a year. Id be happy with an honest 30k. My wife is teacher and always made more then me and will continue to. But i need to contribute even tho she said i could just fish and hunt all day with the boys. Im in a tough spot as a man. I need to work and enjoy it but this is the middle of nowhere so just finding a job to keep me busy will end me on a farm to run big equipment for fun.

One last question. How can i calculate how much a load of wood is per acre? I know its a mix of diff wood. From what my uncle told me it has at least 5 acres worth of walnut and was the reason my gramps bought it. Im sure thats a tough question but i need a ballpark idea on what im getting into.

You guys are great and your advice from everyone is being well thought out.

[thecfarm]

I have no idea about your log market or your lumber market.
My Father and me logged some of this land here. We hardly put a dent in the trees that needed to come out. We cut here for 3 years,but that was only during the summer months too. No more than 2-3 loads a month we got,that was only 5 mbf a truck load. We was lucky that we could sell to a mill that took everything too. Yes,we might not of got so much for a maple,but we did not have a truck load at one time either. In my area I think I would have a hard time selling lumber. There is a sawmill about 10 minutes from me that sells rough lumber too. We brought a 40hp tractor,really need a 60hp and a 3pt winch.

[enigmaT120]

Here are some free publications to read up on forestry.  They're aimed at the non-professional:

http://extension.oregonstate.edu/catalog/results.php?cat=Forestry+%26+Wood+Processing

There's one on forest measurement in there. 

Do you guys have land grant colleges back there, that are required to have extension services?