How do you guys buy your tie logs??

strunk57 · June 21, 2014, 11:08:24 AM

Just wondering. I know the mill in the next town pay a premium for 13-15'. My buyer prefers ties to be cut 8'8. I would still tell the loggers to bring either 9 or 18'.

Say you get a bunch of logs that are 8'10, and a bunch that are 9.

Do you pay the logger for 9' or 8'?

Are you paying a difference in species?

This is something I have not thought about until I started to call a few local loggers.

I want to be fair to the loggers so I will have a constant supply, but I don't want to beat myself out of business.

beenthere · June 21, 2014, 12:45:04 PM

QuoteSay you get a bunch of logs that are 8'10, and a bunch that are 9.

Am thinking you would pay the same for both these lengths.
You are going to get paid for just one tie from each log, so why give a bonus to the logger that will be cutting all 9' logs, just because you are paying him more?

They'll cut the length that you pay for, IMO.

And I would think you would want to see both ends of your tie log when you buy them.

stavebuyer · June 21, 2014, 04:45:30 PM

Buying only logs that are cut cross tie length, sound, as well as straight enough to make a tie is a real challenge. We do buy the double length that are 18' as 18' and anything longer than 8' and less than 10' as 8'. We'd like to cut all ties but between unsound and miss-cut I'd guess 35% of the delivered logs we get won't make a good tie for one reason or another. Mixed wood species like gum and sycamore get discounted to pallet price when the diameter exceeds 16". Frame stock won't hardly cover the saw bill on a bandmill.

Dave Shepard · June 21, 2014, 04:50:35 PM

When I buy pine, it's in 2' increments with 6" trim, 8" or preferably 10" trim on 16' or longer. If it doesn't meet the even foot length plus trim, then it's the next shorter length. I don't buy hardwoods, but I would consider buying on whole foot lengths, plus trim. So 8'6" or 9'6" would be a properly manufactured log. A 9'1" log would be scaled as 8' by me. I'd be reluctant to accept anything less than 4" of trim, and only on fresh logs. But, as I said, I only buy pine.

Peter Drouin · June 21, 2014, 05:53:27 PM

Yup 6" trim, All my logs are 8'6" to 45'6" :D :D :D :D

Banjo picker · June 21, 2014, 09:45:30 PM

If I were trying for 8' 8" tie I would spec a 9' log at least...sometimes they don't get cut square and you end up short...good way to get a reject....Banjo

redprospector · June 21, 2014, 09:56:04 PM

I don't know anything about ties.
We don't really have much around here other than "softwoods".
When I was selling logs, they had to be cut in 2' increments plus 6" of trim out to 18'6", at 20' it went to a 12" trim out to 41'. That's about the longest log they'll let the trucks haul with the length restrictions on our roads. If a log had less than the required trim it would be scaled back to the next shorter length. If the log measured 8'2" it would generally be culled out all together, no mater how good it was.

What little hardwood I've bought I buy the same way, but I'll buy on 1' increments, but no shorter than 8'. So tie logs sounds like a whole different critter, and a pain in the butt for the logger (and the mill too).

The only tie market we have around here is the Mexican tie market. When they come up to talk, it sounds pretty good. Pine & Fir is good for them. They will send a truck to pick them up when you get a load ready. The money seems a little low (can't remember the exact numbers), but times are tough here.
When you talk to the mills that have sold to the Mexicans it's a different story. They are slow to pay, if at all, and there isn't much recourse since they are a whole other country. ;D I figure if I'm going to go broke, I'll do it on my terms.

strunk57 · June 22, 2014, 12:45:29 AM

Ok so if the log is 9'6 I should pay for 9', and if not, the get knocked to 8'?.

What about species, should I pay better for oak and maple? I know I can sell the side boards do more?

Also I read something about tie culls, say a logger brings you a log that is 8'4, or one with too much shake.... How do you scale that...... I will be spending a Day at a good size mill Monday or Tuesday, I will have a chain to see how things work. I will be sure to spend one with the log buyer and the grader.

dgdrls · June 22, 2014, 08:01:36 AM

Figured I'd add this link just-in-case as I did not see it in the thread,
Tie spec is on the link page. http://www.rta.org/faqs-main

With regard to your last question, if a log will not make a tie, than I would indicate to the supplier you will only pay firewood value or less for it.
Regarding species, I would pin down what your buyer will and will not take for ties.

Best
DGDrls

WDH · June 22, 2014, 08:29:45 AM

I would set a specification and stick to that. If a log is longer than your spec, then you pay the spec length and discard the excess. The only cost to you is a little extra handling and having to put the excess somewhere. If the log is shorter than the spec, then it is a reject. They can either take it back with them, or leave it with you, but I would not pay for something that does not meet your specification.

I have bought millions of tons of wood running a wood procurement organization for a large pulpmill and a large SYP sawmill. With sawlogs, you will get what you will pay for. If you pay for junky or poor quality logs, then that is what you will get. You will get what you pay for.

If you go to the store to buy something, and it is damaged or not what you want or can use, you don't buy it. If you pay a fair price and demand quality that is consistent with that price, you will get what you need.

drobertson · June 22, 2014, 09:01:37 AM

Not sure about other areas, but around here logs are 9'2" to a lil longer, all over 9', this way you get a full 9' scale on the flooring lumber. Anything less than the nominal drops to the next whole number. This is around here, Prices for logs have been 360 a thou, straight run up to 450 for good grade red oak, some even more than this. It is what you can work out with your logger and still stay in business.

Dave Shepard · June 22, 2014, 09:48:27 AM

Quote from: WDH on June 22, 2014, 08:29:45 AM
I would set a specification and stick to that. If a log is longer than your spec, then you pay the spec length and discard the excess. The only cost to you is a little extra handling and having to put the excess somewhere. If the log is shorter than the spec, then it is a reject. They can either take it back with them, or leave it with you, but I would not pay for something that does not meet you specification.

I have bought millions of tons of wood running a wood procurement organization for a large pulpmill and a large SYP sawmill. With sawlogs, you will get what you will pay for. If you pay for junky or poor quality logs, then that is what you will get. You will get what you pay for.

If you go to the store to buy something, and it is damaged or not what you want or can use, you don't buy it. If you pay a fair price and demand quality that is consistent with that price, you will get what you need.

Exactly. You are the buyer, you set the price and spec. You should do some research and are what logs are going for in your area, and see how much inconvenience, if any, it will cause the logger to meet your spec. Your goal is to buy as little product as you can that you cannot sell.

strunk57 · June 22, 2014, 02:54:02 PM

Thanks for all the replies, I searched the forum over and coulnt find anything specific to this subject. I think I will pay more for Oak and maple, and logs cut 9'4 13,14,and 15" hen the rest is a set price.

rooster 58 · June 22, 2014, 03:28:35 PM

In my neck of the woods, the loggers want paid for the footage of a 9 ft' log and not an 8 ft'. That is fair enough except if the 9 footer won't make a tie log. And not all loggers know what the specs are for a tie log. So you need to train them on what is necessary. And 9 ft' logs that won't make a tie get scaled back to 8 ft' ;)

Dave Shepard · June 22, 2014, 03:56:52 PM

That's why you need to have a tie price and tie specs. The problem as I see it is not having a market for stuff other than ties. I cut timbers for timber framing. Logs that don't make timbers are just blocking for me. I have enough blocking logs to last for years, but I have to buy everything to get what I want.

strunk57 · June 22, 2014, 04:02:37 PM

Do any of you guys by chance have a price sheet to use for example?

NMFP · June 22, 2014, 05:49:23 PM

Tie logs I buy at the following:

13-15" dib
Red Oak Logs 8'8" 375/m Scribner scale
White Oak Logs 8'8" 375/m Scribner Scale
Mixed Hardwoods 8'8" 340/m Scribner Scale
Poplar, Basswood & Cucumber 8'8" 300/m Scribner Scale

barbender · June 22, 2014, 06:19:25 PM

Like others said, figure out exactly what you want and make your specs. Reject logs that are too short if you have no market for them. Don't be too much of a nit pick if logs are meeting your spec (i.e. don't pay tie price and gripe if the logs aren't veneer quality). One thing I used to run into when I hauled wood, is that mills that are short on wood thank you for logs that they complain about when the yard is full >:( I really disliked that, if I bring you a load that meets YOUR specs don't complain about them when I bring them. Just be consistent is what I am getting at. And pay promptly, nothing will run you out of logs faster than leaving your loggers waiting for money. They have bills they have to pay weekly and monthly, if you leave them hanging I don't care how good your prices are, they will sell their wood somewhere that pays promptly.

Banjo picker · June 22, 2014, 08:20:20 PM

Are there other mills already set up in your area that are paying a decent price for logs? That will affect to a degree how picky you can be. I found it necessary to buy the occasional short log that wouldn't make a tie (at a reduced price) and just cut it into pallet stock so as not to tick off a logger...I had a large mill within 10 miles that paid a very good price for good logs....Logs mainly sell around here by the ton, which makes it hard on a little operation without a set of scales....Banjo

WDH · June 22, 2014, 08:31:25 PM

It is also critical that you be able to unload a log truck quickly. Preferably in 30 - 45 minutes or less. If you cannot do this, loggers will not consistently haul to you. They have to have their trucks unloaded in a timely manner or they are losing loads and money as the truck sits on your yard for hours.

Peter Drouin · June 22, 2014, 10:10:07 PM

Quote from: WDH on June 22, 2014, 08:31:25 PM
It is also critical that you be able to unload a log truck quickly. Preferably in 30 - 45 minutes or less. If you cannot do this, loggers will not consistently haul to you. They have to have their trucks unloaded in a timely manner or they are losing loads and money as the truck sits on your yard for hours.

Gone in less than 20 min :D :D :D :D
And all the small ends to the outside, For easy scaling. All the same length together. ;D
They are not tie logs , But I would like the truck to leave the load nice like this.

thecfarm · June 22, 2014, 10:18:28 PM

Peter,probably have a hard time finding a truck like that where grits are grown.

strunk57 · June 22, 2014, 10:34:58 PM

I understand its important to unload in a timely manner, I am also gonna offer to pay the loggers on the spot if they need it.

Peter Drouin · June 22, 2014, 11:15:44 PM

Quote from: thecfarm on June 22, 2014, 10:18:28 PM
Peter,probably have a hard time finding a truck like that where grits are grown.

:D :D :D :D :D :D

Quote from: strunk57 on June 22, 2014, 10:34:58 PM
I understand its important to unload in a timely manner, I am also gonna offer to pay the loggers on the spot if they need it.

That will leave you short on cash, and if you try to look and pay FAST. You might not see the bad good looking log till you get it on the mill. Then you will have wished you took your time. I tell loggers I want a week, then I pay. But the ck goes out in 2 days or so.
Sawing logs is easy, Buying and grading is the hard part, Well selling too. :D :D

WDH · June 23, 2014, 06:56:48 AM

You are right about those self-unloading trucks. They are like hens teeth in the Deep South where the big pulpmills and sawmills are. The weight of the loader is pretty significant, and reduces the weight of logs that the truck can carry and stay legal. That increases the trucking cost to the mill. When you are buying 300 tractor trailer loads a day, that adds up fast.

Sure is convenient, though.