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4 Sided Planer

Started by ddcuning, June 09, 2014, 09:53:04 AM

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ddcuning

Darrel, I have not seen anything like that in the loose parts. Is there any reason you cannot make a jig to align the knives?

Dave C
We're debt free!!! - Dave C, Nov 2015

backwoods sawyer

The batch of nails that just passed thru :D When a ridge shows up on the wood a quick jointing saves changing knives. (ran a 1940 "Woods" for several years before replacing with a high speed planer)
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

Darrel

I've never seen a gig accurate enough and also like Backwoods said, a jointing takes out nicks in the knives left by rocks, nails etc.
1992 LT40HD

If I don't pick myself up by my own bootstraps, nobody else will.

ddcuning

Interesting info on the planer. I contacted Newman and gave them the serial number. They responded that my planer was built in 1951 and delivered to the Better Built Door company in Egg Harbor City, NJ. Not sure when the Better Built Door company went out of business but the building my planer was housed in burned in  2010. I found pictures of the fire on the web. Nice to know a little history on the planer.

We went to the Threshers Reunion in Denton, NC today and by chance we walked around a bend and there sat a Newman 8-B sitting on a trailer. It was the guys grandfathers and it was built in 1920. I did note several differences between his and mind in the feed system and how the belts drove the cutters.

Dave C
We're debt free!!! - Dave C, Nov 2015

Alligator

Sorry I missed your pictures of returning with the prize. It looks like a good foundation is there, but the guys are right you will have to have those jointers to make nice smooth lumber. There should be 3, 1 top head that stays on the machine, 1 bottom head that stays on the machine, and a side head jointer that bolts to a position usually with a dowel hole to correctly position it. You can and should build a jig to install knives, but it will not solve the jointing problem. Jointing is to get that last really fine smoothness in dressing lumber.

If you take some soot on your fingers and rub length wise a dressed board you can see the knife marks. The better the knife set, and jointing the less you see the knife marks. They never disappear when you soot them but they will to the untrained eye. For $700 you got a great deal, she is going to need a lots of TLC and a few parts.



    

I think half the people including me would give you your money back and come get it. Just have patients. Planer mills require a lots more precision and skill than a saw mill. Sawmill you can farm out the precision work but the planer has to be worked on where it's at. You can't deliver it to be fixed.

The planers I have been associated with ( Newman and Yates American) were 6 knife, and the knife gauge was similar. Start poking around for jointer parts. The top and bottom are not that complex. In looking at your parts pile I see an item that may be a top or bottom head jointer removed. (yellow arrow)

    
Esterer Sash Gang is a  Money Machine

Alligator

When you get time, lay some of your unknown pieces out and get pictures and post them. Maybe some of us have seen them and can identify them. Even if you have a broken piece or two they may be important in fabricating a new one. We had 3 large parts piles in the weeds. (each about 50' x 50') I got pretty good at spotting a corner or 2 or 3 holes aligned a certain way. The alternative way getting in there with the snakes and digging.
Esterer Sash Gang is a  Money Machine

ddcuning

I pulled the parts out and I definitely have the top jointer and have identified it using the parts list. I do not have, nor does the parts list identify a jointer for the side cutters. Not to say that there wasn't one at some point but the parts list from Newman only lists the top and bottom jointers. I have to stop by the mill today and see if the bottom jointer is still on the planer. I did not have it in the loose parts so I am hoping it is still on the planer.

Dave C
We're debt free!!! - Dave C, Nov 2015

Alligator

The bottom is probably still there it would be the biggest pain to get off. It probably had a long 1/4" rod/handle that cranked the jointer stone in and out and also served to move the jointer back and forth. The side head jointer never stays on the planer any way. It is bolted on as needed, probably the reason it would be missing. The side head jointer can probably be replaced for a reasonable price.
Esterer Sash Gang is a  Money Machine

Darrel

The bottom head jointer is most likely mounted on the assembly that slides in and out for accessing the bottom head for changing knives, or does the out feed table drop out of the way on this machine like it does on most American made moulders?  On some units the top and bottom head used the same jointer, most often this was on moulders that had the drop down out feed table after the bottom head.  If it is now detached from the machine, the top and bottom probably share jointers.  Not being familiar with the 8-B, it is hard for me to say.  Look at the picture I posted of the side head jointer, even though this is a Yates American, it should be close enough to ID a side head jointer in your collection of parts.

Also, lots of pictures of top, bottom and side head assemblies would be most helpful.

Darrel
1992 LT40HD

If I don't pick myself up by my own bootstraps, nobody else will.

Holmes

ddcuning, Alligator and Darrel  great info ,you guys are making this rebuild fun
Think like a farmer.

Darrel

To determine if your planer was set-up for a side head jointer, look at either of the side head spindles, you should see something like the illustration in my crude drawing below.


Looking down from the top, the 1/2" threaded hole is for the bolt to hold the jointer in place.  The smaller hole next to it is for a pin to keep the jointer from moving during the jointing process.  The configuration may be a little different than this but this drawing should be close enough to let you know if Newman ever intended the side heads to be jointed.  This jointer is removed while the machine is running.
1992 LT40HD

If I don't pick myself up by my own bootstraps, nobody else will.

Stephen1

Always great to watch a rebuild happening. Good luck
IDRY Vacum Kiln, LT40HDWide, BMS250 sharpener/setter 742b Bobcat, TCM forklift, Sthil 026,038, 461. 1952 TEA Fergusan Tractor

ddcuning

Darrel, I am traveling for work the next few days but will check it and post pictures when I get back on Friday. Thanks for all of the pointers. I contacted Newman today and they said they would not reproduce any of the old parts. If I am supposed to have a jointer for the vertical knives and don't, I am going to have to scroung for it. There is a disassembled 8-B on CL near Johnson City TN but that is a stretch for me to drive or think about being able to get just the jointer from it. Probably be a stretch to think the jointer would be with it.

Dave C
We're debt free!!! - Dave C, Nov 2015

Darrel

One would be pretty easy to fabricate with some basic machine shop tools.  Back in the day one of the mill wrights made one for a Paulson moulder. I showed him where I wanted to mount it on the machine first thing in the morning and I was trying it out that afternoon.
1992 LT40HD

If I don't pick myself up by my own bootstraps, nobody else will.

ddcuning

So I know there are a couple of people on the FF that have Newman 8-B planers. If you have one, do you have the jointer for the vertical knives and if so, can you take pictures to send to me with basic measurements so that I can have one produced? Thanks.

Dave C
We're debt free!!! - Dave C, Nov 2015

Alligator

Hopefully it will help explain the way a side head jointer operates. Maybe Darrel can add some dimensions. It is roughly  12" - 14" tall and 8" - 10" wide. The important part is the angle that the jointer stone sits to the side head. That is determined by a line running thru the center of the joint stone relative to the a line running thru the center of the positioning bolt and dowel. Neither shown in this picture. (2 Pages)
Esterer Sash Gang is a  Money Machine

Darrel

Alligator, you are about as close as I can get with demensions.  And speaking of center lines, the center line of the jointing stone needs to pass through the center of the vertical spindle.  I was looking (googling) for pictures of all this last night and found some pictures of a Newman 500 planer/matcher that showed the mounting surface for the jointer.  The lighting was pretty poor and I wouldn't have known what I was looking at if I hadn't seen it before.  I'll see if I can find a link and post it.
1992 LT40HD

If I don't pick myself up by my own bootstraps, nobody else will.

Alligator

If you find it, I can draw it close to dimension. (MS Visio) The drawing program I use will allow me to take one known dimension, stretch a picture to match and draw around that. When the drawing is finished it is pretty close. Attached is one I started working with, as an idea for a roomy teardrop camper. I have a little more than this, but lost interest.
Esterer Sash Gang is a  Money Machine

Darrel

 :( couldn't find the pic and I spent a whole lot of time looking.  But I'm sure that Dave can post a picture of the mounting surface for the jointer. 
1992 LT40HD

If I don't pick myself up by my own bootstraps, nobody else will.

ddcuning


From this picture you can see what looks like a guard that someone made to keep off of this spindle.


This is the opposing spindle and you can see two bolts where something was to bolt on.


A close up of the spindle that has the homemade guard.


Here are the two spindles side by side.




This is the bottom cutter. I don't see a jointer on it. It could also have been a bolt on that is now missing.


Looking at the bottom cutter, there are several locations where something could bolt on. I assume this was where the bottom jointer bolts since I didn't see the bottom jointer.




At first, I thought this might be the jointer but after closer inspection, this appears to be a deflection shield for chips.

Dave C
We're debt free!!! - Dave C, Nov 2015

Darrel

What a great bunch of pictures!  I don't have time to go through them all right now and explain to you what you are looking at because I need to ger ready to go to work.  I'm looking forward to this.  I do see at least one bolt hole for a jointer and I bet I know where another one is hiding.  Good luck!  And anybody else with experience, feel free to chime in.  This is going to be one good machine by time you are finished with it Dave! 
8)
1992 LT40HD

If I don't pick myself up by my own bootstraps, nobody else will.

Darrel

I will at least get started, as I have a few minutes.  In the first pic, the device you refer to as a guard is in reality someone's attempt to make a "hold down" to keep wood from jumping around as it passes the right cutting head.  I have my doubts about its efficiency.

In the second pic, the 2 bolts are for bolting on a "hold down" for the left head.  My guess is that the original hold downs are missing, this being the reason for the home made one. 

Back to the first pic, the bolt hole to the left of the pic would be for bolting on the jointer.  I would also venture a guess that if you were to swing the chip breaker out of the way you would see a matching bolt hole under it for bolting on the jointer for the left head.  The chip breaker is the device in the second pic that holds the wood against the back fence. 

More to come, if I'm not making myself clear with my explanations, please let me know.
1992 LT40HD

If I don't pick myself up by my own bootstraps, nobody else will.

Darrel

Look top center in the picture of the 2 spindles side by side. You will see a channel where you can bolt on a proper hold down.  You can also see this in several other pictures.

Those places where something bolts on by the bottom head look like where a bed plate section would bolt on.  If I am right, it would most likely have shims under it to get it positioned correctly in relation, not only to the bottom head but the entire machine.  The bolt holes on the out feed table are most likely for fences and the like. 

Does the bottom head slide out of the machine to one side or the other, or is the only access for knife changing from the top?
1992 LT40HD

If I don't pick myself up by my own bootstraps, nobody else will.

Alligator

Have you had time to tinker any more. I was interested if you have cranked the bottom head out, or is it frozen? Darrel was asking if the came out, but I can see in the first pics you posted the lock and extraction screw. It should crank out if it isn't frozen. I have a personal relation with Newman extraction screw. Pop use to make me unlock and crank the bottom head out when I was about 12-15. Once I got a little older he had other uses for me. :)
Esterer Sash Gang is a  Money Machine

Darrel

Alligator, I cut my planerman teeth on that screw!  I was about 16 or 17'. It was my job to stack the stickers that were in the units of redwood that had been air drying out in the yard for a year or so.  And I had to crank that head out almost every night before I went home.  I finely told my uncle that if I was going to extract the head I was also going to change the knives.  The rest is history.
1992 LT40HD

If I don't pick myself up by my own bootstraps, nobody else will.

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