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Chain saw purchase question

Started by MRowsh, June 03, 2014, 11:51:02 AM

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barbender

I have one of the HF grinders. I used it on a rocked chain, once. I repeat, once ;)
Too many irons in the fire

HolmenTree

Trouble is todays saw chain is coming from the factory pre ground with excessive sharp angles, cuts like blazes but doesn't hold a good edge like it used to. 
Here's a pic of 3  chains, the top chain is my latest 100 ft roll and as you notice the excessive sharp angles.
Last 2 bottom chains are from about 20 years ago, the middle chain is near perfect in fast cutting-good edge holding angles. The last chain will hold the best edge but not cut so fast.


 
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Andyshine77

Lately the tooth lengths are all over the place, because of that the depth gauges aren't at te right hight as well.
Andre.

HolmenTree

To add to my last post here is a pic of my latest Oregon chain as I showed earlier and below it a Stihl skip chain from about 10 years ago.
From what I remember Stihl was the first with the radical factory grinds with the excessive "hook" in the side plates, then Oregon followed suit.
Notice this Stihl chain is the old style pre- comfort chain without the "C" and with even material below the toe and heel of the cutter. The new style Oregon with the "Anti-Vibe" and 1 barbed arrow between the rivets shows the lower cutter heel with less material beneath it. The cutters then are suspended with a gap between the heel and guide bar...this clearance is like a shock absorber reducing vibration in the kerf.

If the old generation engineers saw these radical angles in the sideplates they would probably flip.



 
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Andyshine77

WOW I haven't seen off the reel chain with that much hook. That won't stay sharp long. Do you think it's intentional or simply poor quality control?
Andre.

HolmenTree

Quote from: Andyshine77 on June 11, 2014, 06:47:23 PM
WOW I haven't seen off the reel chain with that much hook. That won't stay sharp long. Do you think it's intentional or simply poor quality control?
I think it was intentional. With fewer professionals running saws in the last 15-20 years and the rise of the internet, so much discussion revolved around who's better and cuts faster.....Stihl or Oregon?

Also back in the day when the pro market took a lot more of the saw chain market, the pro users were able to properly file a new chain which at the time came off the reel with fairly blunt angles.

Todays casual user or arborist  ;D can have a quick cutting chain right at the start for a short time. Then when it's time to sharpen with the file the aggressive hook holds the file in place easily for the less experienced filer and after a few sharpenings the sideplate angles will be reduced significantly thus making a normal good cutting chain.

Now for the few top professional users today they wouldn't be running this round ground chain.....only the square ground chisel bit chain would be in order. 
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

John Mc

I've been rather dismayed to see the excessive hook in the chains of the roll or out of the box (I generally use Oregon chain, but I've seen it on others). This came about as they were promoting the "sharp right out of the box" chain. Not only does the edge not last worth a darn, it's really "grabby", making bore cuts a problem at times (the bar tip wants to jump around, even after I've cut a "pocket" for it to sit in). 

Where I really notice it is when boring through the face of the hinge on a small backward-leaning tree to make a slot so the wedge doesn't bottom out against the back of the hinge when driving it. If the bar jumps due to the grabby chain, it starts chewing into what little hinge I've got left.

The other thing I've noticed is that the rakers tend to come set way to high -- sometimes as little as .010" below the tooth. I assume this is some attempt to make up for the grabby hook on the chain.

I wish they'd go back to old profile. With that excessive hook, they've wasted a at least a couple of sharpenings by taking that extra metal out of the gullet. Yeah, it might cut like a bandit right out of the box, but it doesn't last. In the end, it take longer to cut any volume of wood, since you have to stop and sharpen earlier.

I'd write a letter to Oregon, but I have the feeling my time would be wasted. They're convinced that aggressive profile is bringing in customers - and I guess it probably does: if you don't sharpen your chains (or aren't very good at it), it's easy to say "I put a new chain on my saw, and man what a difference."  In fact, with either the old profile or the new one, I found I could get a better cutting chain (that still would last more than a few cuts) by touching up even brand new chain with a hand file before using it.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

HolmenTree

John, well said.
With the latest Oregon LGX chain I showed earlier the side plate hook fits a 1/4" round file perfectly . I tried filing with 1/4" files with no down pressure until the hook was reduced significantly and with 1/10 the diameter of the file above the cutting edge. But trouble was I was running out of gullet and switching over to the 7/32" file became a real chore trying to follow the 1/4" file contour..
So now on the first sharpening I just take a 1/16" or so off the cutting edge with the flat file or with my cordless angle grinder and then follow up with the 7/32" file.

Yes I think your right about the "sharp out of the box" marketing .....just to bring in more sales with less regard to durability.
It's been a while since I talked to my old friend Gary Walrath who is a long retired Oregon field engineer. I'd like to ask him his thoughts on the route the industry has decided to go......but I'm sure he's enjoying retirement on his acreage in eastern Washington state and I wouldn't want to bother him. :laugh:

When I last talked to Gary he said the company was doing less and less field testing which is not a good thing for product research and development.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

John Mc

HolmenTree -  I haven't tried the trick with the flat file. I'll have to give it a shot.

I've never been all that great at freehand filing, and that extra hook just seems to want to suck the file down too low. Maintaining "up" pressure against the hook on the tooth just doesn't seem to work for me. So I generally use one of those Oregon guides that clips on to the file. Even with that, the hook sometimes wants to wedge in between the file and the guide if I'm not careful.

If you ever do catch up to Gary, I'd be interested in what he has to say. Sometimes it's fun to weigh in on how things have changed after retirement... at least it's generally a lot less stressful than doing so while still employed.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

ladylake


On the side of too much hook  is little , no or negative hook.  I've gotten chains in here that were sharpened at saw shops with negative hook, the guy I sharpened them called a couple days later and told me he couldn't believe how much time he was wasting trying to cut with them.  Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

HolmenTree

I've seen a lot of badly sharpened saw chain. Even some of the pro's who make a living with a saw are "lazy hand filers", I've seen back slope in the cutter side plate angles from not putting enough down pressure on a free hand file. Then they would file the depth gauges down to .040-.050-.060 to compensate for the poor cutting back slope. :D
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

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