Hardwoods in the northwest?

[Qweaver]

Are there any hardwoods in the northwest.  We are traveling thru South Dakota, Idaho, Montana, and Washington and I see nothing but conifers.  Were do they get their hardwoods?  I'm staying with friends in Addy, WA and I do not see a single hardwood on their 100 acre property.

Quinton

[BaldBob]

Hardwoods in WA, OR,& Ca are: Alder - used in furniture making, some pulp, some veneer facing.
                                               Big Leaf Maple - some use in Furniture. Some Burls
                                               Oregon White Oak - some use in furniture and wine barrels, some use in flooring
                                               Madrone - some use in flooring
                                               Cottonwood - pulp, Some minor general lumber use (mostly plantation grown)
                                               Oregon White Ash- little use other than firewood.
                                                Eucalyptus (non-native) -some pulp use.

[BaldBob]

Forgot to add, also a small amount of Aspen- usually goes to pulp.

[Qweaver]

Forgot to add, also a small amount of Aspen- usually goes to pulp.

But where are they?  I have seen only a few small scrubby ones along the road.

[Onthesauk]

Quinton,

A lot of the clear cuts of fir are sprayed at 6 - 10 years to clear the alder and maple.  Smaller tracts are hand thinned and they also try to clear the alder and maple.  I've got maple that is 24" in dia, alder at 18" and birch at 16-18".  Still a hardwood mill near Anacortes, lots of alder and maple.  But so much, (and big,) fir it tends to screen off much of the rest.

[WDH]

There is a lot of natural beauty in the West, but not much species diversity.   

[mad murdock]

We also have Big Leaf Maple, which is milled at selected mills with Alder, and white oak, or some species of white or live oak.  Not sure if it is the same as the white or live oak back east.  We also have Cascara Sagrada, or Chittim wood, which is not commercially a millable wood, but is used for medicinal purposes (laxative). There is also Black Walnut, (not occurring naturally in the woods of course,) but planty of it growing in settled areas. Im sure there are a species or 2 more, but nothing worthy of note to consider for milling.

[barbender]

Be careful of the sawdust when milling that Chittim wood, I thought white oak sawdust gave me fits :D

[BargeMonkey]

 Out east here the wood species change quickly, the sawmill I truck to is 12 miles away, and the oak is strikingly different. We grow large, tight red oak up here. The rock oak down there is heavy barked nasty looking stuff, which isnt found up here. I know of 1 white oak in my town, for some reason the little elevation and soil difference changes everything.

[BaldBob]

But where are they?  I have seen only a few small scrubby ones along the road.
[/quote]
With the exception of Aspen and Cottonwood, all the species I mentioned are found west of the Cascades/Sierras. Addy is on the far eastern side of WA, where there is almost no commercially important hardwood presence.

[thenorthman]

yep baldbob nailed it, most of the hardwood is on the west side, you might see some aspen or birch on the east side of the cascades, but its kinda rare there,  usually found near water.

As far as the west side (the best side really...) pretty much all of the "hardwoods" are going to be found near water or near a recently disturbed area, they are the pioneer species dejur. 

And as far as warshington not being very diverse ya all need to open yer eyes to the trees that are not classically considered marketable, such as wild cherry, birch, gerry oak, Yew, white pine, and a few others I'm not even sure of, (devils club, black walnut, black locust)They just are not very common to see so folks forget about them.

And for the record Douglas fir has more tensile strength than some Maples, so hard wood is a relative term.

And the cotton woods tend to grow in swamps in this area, a bunch of folks tried their hand at plantation popular a few years ago... then the pulp market took a dive, so now there is gobs of formally productive farm land covered in a massive mess of oversized or horribly harvested populars that have more or less taken over the field, and are now not worth cutting and burning them.

[mad murdock]

Yes, Bald bob and Northman, exactly. The only additional wood that wasn't mentioned, and occurs further south along the coastal range is Myrtlewood. It is prized for its burls and figured nature.  Tons of Myrtlewood shops from say Florence South along the coast, and from say Cottage Grove south along the I5 corridor.

[treeslayer2003]

what exactly is madrone?

[mad murdock]

what exactly is madrone?

It is a deciduous tree that grows in the coastal mountains of Washington, oregon and. No. Cal. The leaves are ever present, in other words, not all the leaves fall at once, the bark is smooth, except for the lower portions of the trunk, where it peels and sheds as new bark is produced. It is a dense wood and if a madrone is cut, and there is enough exposure, several "suckers" will grow out from the stump. One of the best firewoods,IMO, long burning, low ash, and good heat.  Takes longer to season.  pacific madrone

[treeslayer2003]

timber tree?

[mad murdock]

Not really a "timber" tree, not really promoted as commercially viable. The most productive species on the west side of the region, are Douglas Fir, WRC, then maybe the rest of the firs-silver, grand etc. hardwoods are not really planted and managed for production, they just are harvested where they grow on their own. Douglas Fir especially, can be maximized in well managed stands to produce 30-50mbf/acre. Hardwoods I would guess at best 12mbf/acre more likely 10 or less. That is the primary reason there are more conifers out here anyway. Lower elevations usually have more hardwoods, the higher you go the more conifers.

[treeslayer2003]

that makes sense, those are huge numbers. the tall height helps those numbers i expect.
20,000 on an acre would be very good YP numbers here. 10-15 good on tulip and 10 would be nice on good oak.

[thenorthman]

they grow tall fat and tight... 10-20' between trees or so, and an average of 24" dbh sometimes bigger, and then you can usually get 70' or more of log out of em, with a good stand of Doug's you can usually get 3 logs per tree, 2@36' and then a shorty out of the top or sometimes another 30' or better.

To put icing on the cake dougs grow back better after they have been clear cut, they don't like the shade...  and clear cuts are way more fun then select cuts.

[log cutter]

Welcome to my part of the country. During the work week I stay just a few minutes from Addy.
  Not a lot of hardwoods here. Cottonwoods in the river bottom. Birch and aspens higher up. The Birch have had a major die off due to the bronze birch borer.  Enjoy your stay, if your schedule allows maybe we could meet up for coffee. Pete 

[Qweaver]

Coffee sounds good.  I sent you my local number here.  Give me a call.

[enigmaT120]

There's quite a bit of oak in the Willamette Valley.  I know some land owners who are trying to maintain it, and remove the Douglas-fir as needed.  But I don't know of any who maintain it the way the local Indian tribes did, by burning. 

I have 3 oak trees and alder and big leaf maple on my place, and a bunch of volunteer black cherry trees have been coming up in the past few years.  I want to see if I can get them to grow straight by forcing them to compete with my firs.  Of course, I don't know if I'll find any buyers for them, but if not they'll make good firewood.  Most of my place has Douglas-fir.

I've seen a few  recent plantings west of me, farther into the coast range, where they planted a mix of Douglas-fir, cedar, and spruce.  Maybe it was hemlock, not cedar -- I can't remember now.  It's unusual for the industrial timber owners to plant anything but Douglas-fir.

[terry f]

   No hardwoods to speak of from Cascades to the Black Hills, but lots of trees. Question for the foresters, why? How come the North East and upper Midwest isn't full of Ponderosa Pine and Doug Fir, and Maple and Cherry in the West? Things seem to stop at the Black Hills going both ways.

[thenorthman]

Weyco planted a bunch of hemlock around here in the 70's and 80's, when rayon was the shizz, rayonier of course planted gobs out on the peninsula,  Now it seems they've gone back to planting mostly doug fir, although the hemlock will volunteer and grow just about anywhere.  Same with the spruce and ceder, spruce likes damp ground a little more though.

As far as planting all three in one unit they usually plant spruce next to the Dougs and Ceders to discourage the Deers from munching them down to nubbins.

[Bobus2003]

Got P-Pine in the Black Hills, and all we harvest is P-Pine and a little bit of Spruce. All the aspen, oak, cottonwood just gets felled and put in slash piles if its even removed. Few years back they cut hundreds of acres of Aspen and just let it lay to rot.

[Clark]

Question for the foresters, why? How come the North East and upper Midwest isn't full of Ponderosa Pine and Doug Fir, and Maple and Cherry in the West? Things seem to stop at the Black Hills going both ways.

There are several reasons why...but I won't claim to know them all!

The first is that you have the great plains and with it's periodic burning it was basically impossible for any species that didn't live in a riparian area to make it across. There are several species that have made that transition to one degree or another. Bur oak, ironwood (Ostrya virginiana), paper birch, boxelder, white spruce and balm of gilead have made that transition to some extent but most of those grow in the drains or along rivers.

The real question is why don't western conifers grow in the east? The biggest reason I can think is that there is such a difference in annual precipitation between the two areas that the physiology of the trees can't adjust to that change. With that said, you can plant western species in the east and they grow however, I've never seen an instance where you would prefer to plant the western species over an eastern species in the east.

I've heard that there is a difference in soil pH between the arid west and the east that does not favor western trees but I've never looked into it.

I once heard that there was a small population of ponderosa pine in western MN at the time of settlement. I don't know if this was actually true or not but I have my doubts.

Clark

[M_S_S]

I would think altitude would have a lot to do with why west coast spieces don't grow in the east. Ed

[SwampDonkey]

White birch too in Idaho and Washington. When I was in BC, I never saw any big white birch like we have here in NB. Here it lives a lot longer than aspen, as long as it's not in with fir. When fir dies out, the white birch scalds and dies to.

[thenorthman]

I would think altitude would have a lot to do with why west coast spieces don't grow in the east. Ed

Probably has more to do with water and economics then anything.  The east coast is known for hardwoods, and white pine, lobloly in the south... So importing a species that would then need a market is a little foolish.

The high plains and central US desert keeps most fauna from traipsing over the rockies, people on the other hand carry stuff everywhere.

As far as elevation I've seen ponderosa pine and lodge pole pine at sea leval here, and and doug fir and ceders upwards of 5000 feet or more, past that it changes over to white firs and yellow ceders.

Also in europe they had to start importing doug fir because of our exporting of some disease, and killing off their native pines... Not all of europe but Ireland and France for sure, parts of Germany as well.  (Cromwell burned the native Irish oak forests or turned them into naval ships to get blown up by the Spanish, replanting was considered a bad idea (didn't want anywhere for the natives to be hiding))

[enigmaT120]

I watch a show set in Cornwall, and they frequently have stands of what I could swear are Douglas-fir in the background scenes.  And Swiss needle cast disease is sort of mis-named, as it came from here along with the fir, it just doesn't generally do much harm.  Though it may be demonstrating to the industrial forest land owners why there was mostly hemlock and spruce (and hardwoods) over around Tillamook, originally.  At the right time of year, those stands of fir look like a larch forest changing color.

[mad murdock]

Speaking of the OP, the hardwoods here in the western willamette and Columbia regions may well take a bit this year. There is a tent caterpillar infestation that looks to be growing early and spreading out. I have seen an inordinate number of them on my place particularly in the younger alder stands. According to ODF entomologists they (the insects) don't permanently kill the stands but do curb tree growth for a year or two due to the massive defoliation. Lifted from an email I got from the OWe've got 2 native defoliator outbreaks that have recently emerged, the Western tent caterpillar and the Western oak looper.  I suspect that the caterpillars that Carson is finding is one of these and not gypsy moth.

Amy Grotta alerted me to the Western tent caterpillar outbreak this week and we saw if from the air during aerial surveys yesterday. The majority of what we mapped was in No. Clatsop County (NW of Scappoose/west of Rainier).  We also saw some smaller areas of damage to the south and across the river west of Kelso, WA.  I'll send a link to some aerial pics and I'm working on a map (which I can compare with yours), but I haven't been out to see these areas on the ground yet to confirm everything.  As many calls are coming in, I'm hoping to get a press release out early next week that will have more info for affected landowners, etc.  They seemed to be mostly feeding on alder and the silk tents they make on the tree should be visible.

If he's seeing larvae on white oak, it's likely the Western oak looper, which defoliated a couple of thousand acres in the mid-Willamette Valley last year.  We're not sure what to expect this year, but we've had several reports of larvae already.  No damage is yet visible from the air, but I suspect we'll start seeing it in some areas by next month.   These guys don't produce any tents and while they have a preference for oaks, they'll also feed on other hardwoods and even Doug-fir when it's intermixed with oaks. DF" DF is the initials of the entomologist. What are others seeing in their area as far as bug outbreaks?

[treeslayer2003]

we been lucky the last few years.........gypsy moth is a dirty word here.........had a bad outbreak in the late 80s, trees looked like winter.............killed a lot of high value white oak.
i heard you guys have a new beetle of some sort down in ca. killing hard wood.........just what we need  :(

[mesquite buckeye]

I planted several western pines on my place in Missouri. The deer beat the heck out of them until they get to be over 6 feet. The ones that survived were lodgepole pine, SW white pine and ponderosa pine. The ponderosa pines were doing the best until the last 2 extreme drought years. Some of the nicest ones took a big hit, lost vigor and lots of needles. I don't know if they will make it. The ones from western Nebraska and the inland NW did better than the ones from California.

The climate is so different that I think it will take a couple of generations letting the survivors from different populations cross pollinate to create a stand that is better adapted.

I should note that these trees were planted in the poorest, most eroded acidic clay soil on the farm where even weeds fear to tread.

There are black cherries in the SW extending as far south as Guatemala. The best ones are along watercourses at mid elevations. I think the toughest things for eastern deciduous forest trees coming west would be fire, drought and late season freezes. The coniferous forests have a much larger fire component than eastern North America, and the hardwoods generally fare poorly in fires.

[SwampDonkey]

I've actually never seen hardwood forest ever burn here. I see softwood mixed with white birch and red maple burn and spruce fir mix or white cedar, but never seen sugar maple woods ever burn.

[mesquite buckeye]

They can and do burn in the western parts of the Eastern Deciduous Forest on the prairie margins especially. The western forests (meaning the mountain west) have a very large fire component.

[CJennings]

I would think its related to water and fire. Those vast dry areas that get fires are a major obstacle to eastern hardwoods moving west. It seems to me a lot of the hardwoods want a lot more water than what is available in a large portions of the west. The big herds of bison in the past wouldn't have helped matters either. I know American chestnuts were planted in the PNW by settlers and thrived, and so have other eastern species, but I don't think they could have gotten there without human intervention.

[hardtailjohn]

And for the record Douglas fir has more tensile strength than some Maples, so hard wood is a relative term.

Well said thenorthman!   And let's not forget Larch... here in Western MT we have that and Doug Fir as the closest thing to what the rest call "hardwoods".
John

[enigmaT120]

A guy (Tim Tracy?) showed up at our small woodland owners' banquet Sat. from a local chain of hardwood mills; I can't remember if he said he's a forester for them or a log buyer.  I have his card, anyway.  They buy ash, maple, and alder.  I asked about black cherry and he doesn't know of any mills around who buy it.  If my trees get big enough to sell I'll advertise them, maybe some independent sawmiller will want them.

Edit:  duh, they also buy oak.

[thenorthman]

There is an outfit here that will buy cherry, they don't advertise it, but they pay the same as birch and alder, which granted isn't much but if your sending in mixed loads ya can't complain to much.